Cycle Lanes in Phoenix Park

cgcsb

If we were more ambitious about the Park it could be car free. 2 bus routes operated by electric single deckers:

1: Parkgate Street to Castleknock gate
2: A circular route, North Road, Military Road, Upper Glenn Road

make them every 10 minutes in summer and every 20 mins in winter

Make the buses free to use, have the rest of the park for cycling and walking. Make the whole thing a zero emissions zone, Close the entrances to cars. No doubt the scheme proposed by the OPW will be much less ambitious.

Hurrache

The buses go from where though?

Tombo2001

Weepsie wrote: »

Let's flip that. By removing parking, it will improve one of the best facilities on that side of Dublin for many.

It's a virtual car park for too many people. Too many people use it for free parking and head into town on it.

I've used the park a lot through the years - for cycling, running, visitor centre farmleigh, rolling down the hill at the popes cross....etc etc.....

I've never really thought to myself - this place would be way better if there werent so many parked cars.

In fact, thats only really ever been an issue when I've been looking to park a car myself.

cgcsb

Hurrache wrote: »

The buses go from where though?

A small depot could be built within the park for them to charge and store overnight.

Hurrache

cgcsb wrote: »

A small depot could be built within the park for them to charge and store overnight.

So you'd still have the issue of getting to them and parking.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I've used the park a lot through the years - for cycling, running, visitor centre farmleigh, rolling down the hill at the popes cross....etc etc.....

I've never really thought to myself - this place would be way better if there werent so many parked cars.

In fact, thats only really ever been an issue when I've been looking to park a car myself.

Agree. There's only really problems around the Parkgate street end, particularly around the Zoo when the weather is good, or at the visitor centre. Outside of that I never really found it to be a problem.

buffalo

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I've never really thought to myself - this place would be way better if there werent so many parked cars.

In fact, thats only really ever been an issue when I've been looking to park a car myself.

You've never been to the Park during Bloom so.

Hurrache

Bloom though is an exceptional circumstance, and certainly shouldn't feed into why the park should be changed as a result.

cgcsb

Hurrache wrote: »

So you'd still have the issue of getting to them and parking.

Not really, Extend the Chesterfield avenue route to Heuston Station and Castleknock Station. Very easy interchange with PT in the rest of the city. You wouldn't need parking at all.

Hurrache

cgcsb wrote: »

Not really, Extend the Chesterfield avenue route to Heuston Station and Castleknock Station. Very easy interchange with PT in the rest of the city. You wouldn't need parking at all.

And how do I get there and park with a car load of kids, their bikes and bags, and dogs? It's just adding unreasonable hurdles to using it. For all that hassle I'd just drive to Marlay Park, Malahide Castle or Ardgillan Castle, adding a bit more to my carbon footprint.

Any business will then be taking from what is pretty much my local area and spent elsewhere.

buffalo

Hurrache wrote: »

Bloom though is an exceptional circumstance, and certainly shouldn't feed into why the park should be changed as a result.

Bloom is a recurring event and therefore not an exception, and is an interesting aspect as to how the OPW views the Park and how it should be used.

Spanish Eyes

I've often wondered why car traffic was never diverted from Chesterfield Ave to North Road perimeter route instead. I'm sure there is a reason. A new entrance to the Zoo car parks could be made from North Road if the will was there.

Then ban cars and parking on Ch/Ave altogether and just allow pedestrians, cyclists, and the hop on hop off buses. Sounds too simple I suppose but would be great!

Anything can be done if the vision (and the money) is there really. It is a fantastic amenity Ch/Ave is just choking with cars who are commuting or parked.

Hurrache

buffalo wrote: »

Bloom is a recurring event and therefore not an exception, and is an interesting aspect as to how the OPW views the Park and how it should be used.

Yes, but in the daily and weekly use of the park it's an exceptional event in terms of the numbers and traffic it brings.

cgcsb

Hurrache wrote: »

And how do I get there and park with a car load of kids, their bikes and bags, and dogs? It's just adding unreasonable hurdles to using it. For all that hassle I'd just drive to Marlay Park, Malahide Castle or Ardgillan Castle, adding a bit more to my carbon footprint.

Any business will then be taking from what is pretty much my local area and spent elsewhere.

Take public transport. Chose to drive elsewhere if you like, it is a very special park and shouldn't be stuffed with cars.

Hurrache

cgcsb wrote: »

Take public transport. Chose to drive elsewhere if you like, it is a very special park and shouldn't be stuffed with cars.

Not sure how familiar you are with public transport in Ireland, but it can't be done by public transport.

And even if I was to do on my own, I couldn't get there by public transport without going into the city centre and back out again, despite it being 10 minutes or so away by car.

And be realistic, it's not stuffed with cars.

Chips Lovell

For me, parked cars aren't really the problem. It's the traffic. And it's not so much the traffic, but people driving like c**ks, without appreciating that it's first and foremost a leisure amenity, not another N-Road.

LollipopJimmy

I cycled through the park on Saturday, I came alongside another cyclist in the cycle lane and asked him to race me to the next lampost, he just beat me but I reckon him having stabilisers helped him get the power down.

Anyway, the cycle lanes along Chesterfield Avenue are no place to go chasing KOMs, it's just too busy with too many people around. I use these lanes quite a bit and tbh I just slow down and take in the scenery

Hurrache

Chips Lovell wrote: »

For me, parked cars aren't really the problem. It's the traffic. And it's not so much the traffic, but people driving like c**ks, without appreciating that it's first and foremost a leisure amenity, not another N-Road.

Exactly, it's the through traffic and speeding that's the problem. People in a rush to get to and from work, or in a rush to bag the parking at the Parkgate Street end. Go away from Chesterfield Avenue, or even the middle section of the avenue, there's no issue.

cgcsb

Hurrache wrote: »

Not sure how familiar you are with public transport in Ireland, but it can't be done by public transport.

As I posted 2 bus routes, one circling the inside of the park and the other going from Heuston to Castleknock would effectively cover the Park.

beauf

buffalo wrote: »

You've never been to the Park during Bloom so.

Bloom is nothing to do with this discussion. They create temp car parks, close off roads to traffic and you can't cycle due to the large volumes of pedestrians.

beauf

cgcsb wrote: »

As I posted 2 bus routes, one circling the inside of the park and the other going from Heuston to Castleknock would effectively cover the Park.

All of D15 isn't going to walk to Castleknock to get a bus. Its too big an area.

beauf

Tombo2001 wrote: »

...I've never really thought to myself - this place would be way better if there werent so many parked cars....

Same here.

Hurrache

cgcsb wrote: »

As I posted 2 bus routes, one circling the inside of the park and the other going from Heuston to Castleknock would effectively cover the Park.

The question I asked is how do you get to those routes you propose.

lawred2

papu wrote: »

Bought a new bike, went for a spin up and down chesterfield avenue today on the "Bike Lane". Pedestrians every 100m, whole families, buggies, kids. Asking them to move to the pedestrian lane I was told to "Get over myself" "f** off" etc. etc. one lady even told me to use the "bike lane!:rolleyes:".

I would have thought the signs on the bike path are fairly self explanatory, do they need to put up more explicit signage? How do other people get on? Is this what it's like every weekend??:(

design problem... why is the footpath inside the barrier with no obvious means of access beyond walking across the grass and hurdling the barrier? Footpaths by convention tend to be beside the road.

Hurrache

lawred2 wrote: »

design problem... why is the footpath inside the barrier with no obvious means of access beyond walking across the grass? Footpaths by convention tend to be beside the road.

It's safer for families and animals with it being on the inside. Having it on the outside essentially puts you between two lanes of moving traffic and forms an artificial barrier to the rest of the park.

Cycle lanes by convention tend to be the ones alongside the road, not the footpaths.

beauf

RayCun wrote: »

That isn't cutting off though, it would still be accessible by car.

'for access' implies no through traffic

Chesterfield <-> Parkgate will always be kept open for zoo, Aras, embassy, and car park at the cross.
Chesterfield to North Road, Ordnance Survey as far as Farmleigh, the road to the visitor centre, and North Road to North Circular could be kept open for some through traffic and access to the amenities in the zoo, but would stop the park being used as a main road and car park.

Isn't that bascially and obital route intose the walls like I suggested.

No sense leaving Chesterfield <-> Parkgate open. All those other locations have access to other roads. Even the hospitals. if they hadn't some of the the exits one way, forcing people to spend more time driving around the park than they previously had to.

Leaving Chesterfield <-> Parkgate open seems to facilitate those coming from the city centre and discommoding all the locals who are the main users of the park.

Spanish Eyes

lawred2 wrote: »

design problem... why is the footpath inside the barrier with no obvious means of access beyond walking across the grass and hurdling the barrier? Footpaths by convention tend to be beside the road.

Agree completely. Pedestrians expect their footpaths to be nearest the road.

No wonder there is so much confusion between peds and cyclists. Should just swap them around now. Easy enough to do.

lawred2

Hurrache wrote: »

It's safer for families and animals with it being on the inside. Having it on the outside essentially puts you between two lanes of moving traffic and forms an artificial barrier to the rest of the park.

I'm sure it makes sense from certain perspectives but in practice (which is the truest test) it doesn't really work...

Hardly anyone who isn't familiar with the Park will know to cross the grass and step over a barrier to use a walkway. It's nonsense really. And it's even dafter when one considers those with buggies/wheelchairs etc

Hurrache

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Agree completely. Pedestrians expect their footpaths to be nearest the road.

No wonder there is so much confusion between peds and cyclists. Should just swap them around now. Easy enough to do.

It's been debated over and over, probably on this very thread. Makes no sense in terms of usability and safety to swap them.

beauf

lawred2 wrote: »

design problem... why is the footpath inside the barrier with no obvious means of access beyond walking across the grass and hurdling the barrier? Footpaths by convention tend to be beside the road.

Only if your parking on the road. Remove parking, replace with cycle lane. Let the pedestrians keep the paths.

RayCun

Sorry, I meant Chesterfield <> Phoenix Park monument

access to the zoo, Aras, visitor centre, but not to Castleknock

orbital route around North road for through traffic

lawred2

beauf wrote: »

Only if your parking on the road. Remove parking, replace with cycle lane. Let the pedestrians keep the paths.

well that's certainly a very valid idea... Would probably need to significantly extend the existing parking in the park though? Would you agree?

cgcsb

beauf wrote: »

All of D15 isn't going to walk to Castlknock to get a bus. Its too big an area.

You make it sound like there is no public transport at all outside the park.

beauf

lawred2 wrote: »

I'm sure it makes sense from certain perspectives but in practice (which is the truest test) it doesn't really work...

Hardly anyone who isn't familiar with the Park will know to cross the grass and step over a barrier to use a walkway. It's nonsense really. And it's even dafter when one considers those with buggies/wheelchairs etc

Works at peak when cycling to work.

Doesn't work off peak when people are out walking and jogging. Then weight of numbers over rides any rules.

cgcsb

Hurrache wrote: »

The question I asked is how do you get to those routes you propose.

By public transport, walking or cycling

lawred2

Hurrache wrote: »

It's been debated over and over, probably on this very thread. Makes no sense in terms of usability and safety to swap them.

the current configuration doesn't make much practical sense either..

so everyone loses

Spanish Eyes

Hurrache wrote: »

It's been debated over and over, probably on this very thread. Makes no sense in terms of usability and safety to swap them.

Why?

I am very used to walking in the Pheeno, but with headphones in and off in a dream I very often start in the cycle lane because it is innate, that is where I expect the pedestrian footpath to be!

beauf

lawred2 wrote: »

well that's certainly a very valid idea... Would probably need to significantly extend the existing parking in the park though? Would you agree?

Not if you don't want cars in the park. No parking, no cars.

beauf

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Why?

I am very used to walking in the Pheeno, but with headphones in and off in a dream I very often start in the cycle lane because it is innate, that is where I expect the pedestrian footpath to be!

You're going to have to get used to the idea of cycle lanes and checking for them.
Park or anywhere.

Hurrache

cgcsb wrote: »

You make it sound like there is no public transport at all outside the park.

cgcsb wrote: »

By public transport, walking or cycling

So like I asked, how does it work in the scenario I proposed to you? I'll loan you the bikes, kids and dogs if you need to try it.

lawred2

beauf wrote: »

Not if you don't want cars in the park. No parking, no cars.

right...

So the park becomes an amenity for those that live in Castleknock and Parkgate Street?

What about everyone else?

beauf

cgcsb wrote: »

You make it sound like there is no public transport at all outside the park.

I just think people will park on all the local roads (residential areas) around the park.

Spanish Eyes

beauf wrote: »

You're going to have to get used to the idea of cycle lanes and checking for them.
Park or anywhere.

Ahem, that sounds very like cyclist arrogance

The point has been made that footpaths are close to the road, it is where most people walking expect them to be. Cycling on the inner path would be safer for everyone really.

But anyway, back to the vehicular traffic, that's the REAL bogey IMV.

beauf

lawred2 wrote: »

right...

So the park becomes an amenity for those that live in Castleknock and Parkgate Street?

What about everyone else?

cgcsb suggests we all use public transport or walk, cycle.

cgcsb

Hurrache wrote: »

So like I asked, how does it work in the scenario I proposed to you? I'll loan you the bikes, kids and dogs if you need to try it.

Much like Merrion Square, Stephen's Green, Mountjoy Square, St Patrick's Park and other parks with no parking or car access, you make your own arrangements to get there. You can bring bikes on rail at off peak times, you could leave the bikes at home one day even, or you could cycle them there.

Hurrache

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Why?

I am very used to walking in the Pheeno, but with headphones in and off in a dream I very often start in the cycle lane because it is innate, that is where I expect the pedestrian footpath to be!

Because you're proposing to put pedestrians and kids between the usability of the park itself and moving cars. If you have issues now wait until you see what it's like to have kids and pets constantly run from the footpath into the trees and park across you.

What footpath or roadway did you ever expect to find the pedestrian footpath between cycle lane and roadway?

beauf

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Ahem, that sounds very like cyclist arrogance

The point has been made that footpaths are close to the road, it is where most people walking expect them to be. Cycling on the inner path would be safer for everyone really.

But anyway, back to the vehicular traffic, that's the REAL bogey IMV.

I'm just saying its 2019 cycle lanes are a thing. Its not the 80s.

cgcsb

beauf wrote: »

I just think people will park on all the local roads (residential areas) around the park.

Pretty much all around the park is already pay and display + permits

lawred2

Hurrache wrote: »

Because you're proposing to put pedestrians and kids between the usability of the park itself and moving cars. If you have issues now wait until you see what it's like to have kids and pets constantly run from the footpath into the trees and park across you.

What footpath or roadway did you ever expect to find the pedestrian footpath between cycle lane and roadway?

but this is how the park in effect works right now

Hurrache

cgcsb wrote: »

Much like Merrion Square, Stephen's Green, Mountjoy Square, St Patrick's Park and other parks with no parking or car access, you make your own arrangements to get there. You can bring bikes on rail at off peak times, you could leave the bikes at home one day even, or you could cycle them there.

So we only visit the park by rail, at off peak times. Right so.

All those parks you mention have parking.

beauf

Hurrache wrote: »

Because you're proposing to put pedestrians and kids between the usability of the park itself and moving cars. If you have issues now wait until you see what it's like to have kids and pets constantly run from the footpath into the trees and park across you.

What footpath or roadway did you ever expect to find the pedestrian footpath between cycle lane and roadway?

In fairness if there is an event on like bloom. The only way to cycle is on the inner path which which root infested. The cycle path is a non runner (lol). Or just avoid the park.