Why are train stations such a distance from town centres

guylikeme

With the possible exception of Galway, almost every train stop involves a minimum 10 minute brisk walk to anything resembling the town that they are in.

Was this planned? I realise the lines are in some cases hundred + years old

LXFlyer

Well I'd imagine it depended upon land availability.

Remember most towns were already established and built up before the railways arrived.

crusha101

Limerick would also be an exception , All to do with the land available at the time i reckon

whisky_galore

Price of land and in a few cases major landowners influencing the location of stations.

All private companies building and running railways and no early state control, like on the continent.

LeinsterDub

10 minutes is hardly far in fairness

Riskymove

Trains were also a means of transporting freight, animals etc so needed a bit of space/yards etc

thomasj

Blanchardstown centre is a perfect example of this.

When the centre was at planning stage proposals included a train station and bus interchange. The decision in the end was to go with the bare minimum .

foggy_lad

Back when most railways were built they required large railway yards and buildings because they were all steam powered. There would also have been issues with the alignments and also many town centres ahave been slowly shifting over the years.

Back in the day it wouldn't have been an issue as the train was only used for special occasions to go to Dublin or other big city or to travel down the country visiting. One had to arrive at least 20 minutes before boarding time and there were usually porters scurrying around loading trunks and other goods into the guards van and maybe a mixed freight car. Back then the town centre's were far busier than they are today with many having the mart a central feature. They were just too busy to add a train station and all the required yards sheds and sidings. There are some exceptions of course like Kilkenny Galway Longford Waterford Wexford and some of the smaller stations.

cgcsb

The railways had a military function in addition to a civilian one. The British army used them to get supplies and soldiers around the country. Locating the stations in the centre of towns would've increased the chances of military transports being overrun when they stopped.

Land values and towns already being built up was not an issue. Ireland's economy at the time was entirely based on agriculture so urban land values would probably have been less/the same as good quality farmland.

Even quite wealthy parts of Dublin seen heavy demolition to accommodate the Kingstown to Howth railway, the scars of which you can still see on Amien St and Pearse St. So demolishing properties in small towns to make way for it would not have been an issue in the 19th century.

LXFlyer

thomasj wrote: »

Blanchardstown centre is a perfect example of this.

When the centre was at planning stage proposals included a train station and bus interchange. The decision in the end was to go with the bare minimum .

I'd imagine the OP is talking about historical established towns rather than more recently developed commuter satellite towns within a city.

cgcsb

thomasj wrote: »

Blanchardstown centre is a perfect example of this.

When the centre was at planning stage proposals included a train station and bus interchange. The decision in the end was to go with the bare minimum .

Blanch is a real shame and now a real mess with impossible commute times. It's not too late though, we could still build a branch railway from Navan Road Parkway, stopping at Connolly Hospital, Blanch Centre, Mulhuddart, Damastown, Clonee and Dunboyne alongside the N3 or on an elevated structure. Of course you'd need electrification and DART underground to provide enough capacity for a frequent DART service, so we're talking well after our life times.

magicbastarder

thomasj wrote: »

Blanchardstown centre is a perfect example of this.

When the centre was at planning stage proposals included a train station and bus interchange. The decision in the end was to go with the bare minimum .

how much would this have added to the cost of the shopping centre, though?
i'd have been a bit dubious about public money being spent specifically to suit a specific private enterprise. and i suspect the cost of the rail link was way beyond what the developers would have been willing to pay.

vicwatson

guylikeme wrote: »

With the possible exception of Galway, almost every train stop involves a minimum 10 minute brisk walk to anything resembling the town that they are in.

Was this planned? I realise the lines are in some cases hundred + years old

Untrue, Wexford, Waterford, Rathdrum, Enniscorthy all virtually in town centre

cgcsb

magicbastarder wrote: »

how much would this have added to the cost of the shopping centre, though?
i'd have been a bit dubious about public money being spent specifically to suit a specific private enterprise. and i suspect the cost of the rail link was way beyond what the developers would have been willing to pay.

The developers could've contributed via a development levy, the developers would hardly be the sole beneficiaries, the travelling public would be getting the best deal.

Del.Monte

vicwatson wrote: »

Untrue, Wexford, Waterford, Rathdrum, Enniscorthy all virtually in town centre

Not to mention Dun Laoghaire, Bray, Kilkenny, Cahir and on and on...

n97 mini

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'd have been a bit dubious about public money being spent specifically to suit a specific private enterprise. and i suspect the cost of the rail link was way beyond what the developers would have been willing to pay.

The spur to Blanchardstown was proposed at least 20 years before there was a shopping centre built, but if you want to keep your city moving you build necessary infrastructure to bring people where they want to go. The notion that the state shouldn't pay for infrastructure just because there is a private company involved is daft.

whisky_galore

Charleville and Millstreet are two that come to mind are quite a long way (as in a lengthy walk) from the places they are supposed to serve.

magicbastarder

n97 mini wrote: »

The spur to Blanchardstown was proposed at least 20 years before there was a shopping centre built, but if you want to keep your city moving you build necessary infrastructure to bring people where they want to go. The notion that the state shouldn't pay for infrastructure just because there is a private company involved is daft.

as i said, if a rail line was built specifically for the shopping centre, and no further, i'd be dubious about that being done with taxpayer money. would cost tens of millions i would guess, for the infrastructure.

what route was the previously proposed spur going to take? alongside the n3?

McAlban

thomasj wrote: »

Blanchardstown centre is a perfect example of this.

When the centre was at planning stage proposals included a train station and bus interchange. The decision in the end was to go with the bare minimum .

This old chesnut... has been gone over and over again...

During the Forfas study on the future Dart (IN 1975? I believe) there was a Dart line to the planned "Blanchardstown Centre" But that was more of a commuter service to serve population areas rather than the actual shopping centre built 20 years later.

There was a Blanchardstown Station here... https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3825212,-6.3641156,176m/data=!3m1!1e3

(I'm not entirely sure what this existing structure is, nor the one across the canal from it).

Since the Blanch population began to explode, Coolmine and Castleknock were opened in 1990 to serve the population in that area.

Punters in Blakestown and other distant parts of Blanch may not like it, but that's as close as the train line is ever going to get unless Metro West is miraculously resurrected.

Mrs OBumble

Del.Monte wrote: »

Not to mention Dun Laoghaire, Bray, Kilkenny, Cahir and on and on...

And Athenry.


The recently-built Oranmore is a different story, though, and is where it is because the traffic disruption caused by a railway crossing so near the old station site make it impossible to use.

endacl

Back when the railway system was originally laid out, people were neither as lazy or whiney as they are today.

n97 mini

magicbastarder wrote: »

as i said, if a rail line was built specifically for the shopping centre, and no further, i'd be dubious about that being done with taxpayer money. would cost tens of millions i would guess, for the infrastructure.

The state will pay for the all the access roads. Costs are recouped through commercial rates, development levies etc.

magicbastarder wrote: »

what route was the previously proposed spur going to take? alongside the n3?

EDIT: The shopping centre brings in an annual estimated rent of €50 million, and Fingal's ARV is 14.4%, so the annual rates are in the order of €7.2 million.

Rock77

Why are train stations such a distance from towns?

Because they had to put them close to the tracks!

McAlban

n97 mini wrote: »

The state will pay for the all the access roads. Costs are recouped through commercial rates, development levies etc.

EDIT: The shopping centre brings in an annual estimated rent of €50 million, and Fingal's ARV is 14.4%, so the annual rates are in the order of €7.2 million.

Nice what book is that from??

Blanch South and Central would imply they were expecting to one day have a north too. (Damastown? Mulhuddart?)

I think this is from Forfas...

n97 mini

McAlban wrote: »

Nice what book is that from??

http://www.amazon.com/Ireland-Regional-Railway-History-Rowledge/dp/090689963X

12Phase

It's actually not unique to Ireland, you'll find the same pattern in a lot of French cities and towns too.

The cities and towns were there long before the arrival of railway technology. So, there was no way of actually building a station in the town centre without doing massive demolition of buildings or digging tunnels or putting in overpassing bridges.

There's only example of a major tunnel cut through rock to access a city centre : Cork. It's still only getting you a few minutes away from the city centre by foot, but it is a damn sight better than arriving in Blackpool 3km away.

In Europe, a lot of German Cities and the likes of Brussels put their train networks underground and link into major underground intercity stations. That's the kind of thing that requires major investment and disruption.

Also, if you look at the change in technology. Older trains required a lot of support services (water, coal yards etc etc) and were noisy and smelly, producing huge volumes of coal smoke.

And as was pointed out, they were also the main method of moving heavy freight and cattle in the old days. So, they needed big fright yards and often they'd just dual-purpose that with a railway station in midsize towns.

In Dublin, Cork, Belfast and other ports etc etc there were actual freight yards linked to docks and so on but most medium towns didn't have anything like that.

geecee

vicwatson wrote: »

Untrue, Wexford, Waterford, Rathdrum, Enniscorthy all virtually in town centre

Waterford's Plunkett train station isn't even in in Waterford county (according to Kilkenny people!)

McAlban

geecee wrote: »

Waterford's Plunkett train station isn't even in in Waterford county (according to Kilkenny people!)

It is, this is a very old myth, it's just on the Kilkenny Side of the River. But that part has been in Waterford before the train station was there.

Carawaystick

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And Athenry.

Athlone, Malahide, Balbriggan, Mullingar, Longford, Arklow also

McAlban

Carawaystick wrote: »

Athlone, Malahide, Balbriggan, Mullingar, Longford, Arklow also

Mind you Rush & Lusk, Skerries, and Drogheda are well outside the town centre, however, this may have been simply because of the needs for aligning the Permanent Way in an efficient manner, avoiding cuttings and embankments and tunnels as much as possible.

I think that probably in a lot of cases, this is the reason the station was located at a distance from the town centre.

hearmehearye

vicwatson wrote:

Untrue, Wexford, Waterford, Rathdrum, Enniscorthy all virtually in town centre

Del.Monte wrote:

Not to mention Dun Laoghaire, Bray, Kilkenny, Cahir and on and on...

Tralee and Killarney too.

BoatMad

railways in ireland were built primarily for the movement of agricultural freight , passenger traffic was regarded as a secondary source of income . Hence the need to be in the centre of populations was not as great as might be expected today , when the carriage of passengers is all encompassingly and in ireland rail freight is virtually gone

foggy_lad

McAlban wrote: »

Mind you Rush & Lusk, Skerries, and Drogheda are well outside the town centre, however, this may have been simply because of the needs for aligning the Permanent Way in an efficient manner, avoiding cuttings and embankments and tunnels as much as possible.

I think that probably in a lot of cases, this is the reason the station was located at a distance from the town centre.

Mostrim/Edgeworthstown, Hazelhatch, Newbridge, Monasterevin, Thomastown, Carrick-on-Shannon, Ballinasloe, Templemore, Charleville and many others are quite a distance from the towns they serve.

BoatMad

foggy_lad wrote: »

Mostrim/Edgeworthstown, Hazelhatch, Newbridge, Monasterevin, Thomastown, Carrick-on-Shannon, Ballinasloe, Templemore, Charleville and many others are quite a distance from the towns they serve.

carrick on shannon station is closer then waterford ones is to its city centre !

n97 mini

Waterford Manor was very central and Waterford South was at least on the right side of the river!

unkel

guylikeme wrote: »

With the possible exception of Galway, almost every train stop involves a minimum 10 minute brisk walk to anything resembling the town that they are in.

Was this planned? I realise the lines are in some cases hundred + years old

Yes it's very silly imho. Walk from Heuston into town is a good 20 minutes :rolleyes: And yes I realise we have a Luas now in the last few years that can bring you there quicker. Not the point though

Never mind the reasons they were built like that 150-170 years ago, but it should have been remedied many, many decades ago. No wonder hardly anybody travels on public transport in Dublin compared to most other cities of similar size in the EU (i.e. like Amsterdam and Rotterdam)

In the Netherlands, central train stations are right bang in the middle of the city centres.

McAlban

Ah yes but the Dutch have a history of delivering on large scale infrastructure projects. See the Zuider-Zee project. They also do public transport, and cycle lanes pretty well.

I have travelled there many times, all over the Netherlands, most recently last summer for a trip to catch up with the OH in Noordwijk. It was frustratingly simple to get a train from Schiphol to Leiden Central (using their equivalent of a Tourist Leap card) exit the train station and pop onto the correct bus directly outside the station which dropped me 200m from my OH's hotel.

Spent the next 3 days in Amsterdam, using trains, metros and trams. Bliss

magicbastarder

unkel wrote: »

And yes I realise we have a Luas now in the last few years that can bring you there quicker. Not the point though

not at the moment, but it'll be going there again in a few months.

GM228

Q: Why are train stations such a distance from town centres?

A: Simple, they are built next to the train tracks.

cdeb

vicwatson wrote: »

Untrue, Wexford, Waterford, Rathdrum, Enniscorthy all virtually in town centre

Waterford is a little bit of a walk - wrong side of the river basically - but if you're counting it (and I guess you should, as within ten minutes' walk, you can get to something resembling the town of Waterford, which was the OP's criterion), then you can count Cork and Dublin Connolly too.

Belfast, Dundalk, Greystones and Derry all quite reasonable too.

Drogheda is maybe the farthest from its centre?

n97 mini

cdeb wrote: »

Waterford is a little bit of a walk

And it's not serviced by local buses any more either, since they unintregated the bus station from the train station and moved it a 10 min walk down the quay. Ironic given that there's now only one platform left in use at the station, leaving more space than ever. Doh!

Jamie2k9

geecee wrote: »

Waterford's Plunkett train station isn't even in in Waterford county (according to Kilkenny people!)

It is, WCC own the land!

And it's not serviced by local buses any more either, since they unintregated the bus station from the train station and moved it a 10 min walk down the quay. Ironic given that there's now only one platform left in use at the station, leaving more space than ever. Doh!

Station will eventually be located via bridge opposite bus station.

n97 mini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Station will eventually be located via bridge opposite bus station.

I'd say the station will be closed and the tracks lifted before that ever comes to pass!

end of the road

12Phase wrote: »

arriving in Blackpool 3km away.

indeed. if only BR had said no to the council and kept the central station open and closed the south and north stations as originally planned, but it is what it is!

Banjoxed

thomasj wrote: »

Blanchardstown centre is a perfect example of this.

When the centre was at planning stage proposals included a train station and bus interchange. The decision in the end was to go with the bare minimum .

Mainly because of d*cks like Hugh Munro who believed buses were good enough for the proles. http://dublinobserver.com/2011/03/white-elephant-on-tracks/

Gael23

vicwatson wrote: »

Untrue, Wexford, Waterford, Rathdrum, Enniscorthy all virtually in town centre

Waterford station is just across the bridge from the city, it's not far in distance but on foot you have to cross a dual carriageway and a lethal roundabout to get there.

Charles Babbage

Wexford was built on reclaimed land. There was nothing on that side of Dundalk before the station, that was the lands of the big house. For the likes of Drogheda and Newry it was hard to bring the line down to river level. Athenry is typical of European towns in that the station is just outside the walls.

Also some towns are much bigger than in the mid 19th century, while others not so much.

tabbey

Del.Monte wrote: »

Not to mention Dun Laoghaire, Bray, Kilkenny, Cahir and on and on...

Bray, and even more so, Dun Laoghaire, developed as a result of the railway presence.

tabbey

[QUOTE=Charles Babbage;99897591 For the likes of Drogheda and Newry it was hard to bring the line down to river level.[/QUOTE]

Newry had two stations at street level, just above river level.
One was called Edward Street. They were on the Goraghwood to Warrenpoint branch.

What we now call Newry station, was originally Bessbrook.

You are right about Drogheda, although it also had a steeply graded branch to Boyne Road cement factory, from just north of the viaduct.

tabbey

Some stations were built way out of town because the alternative would have been tortuously twisty and slow. Charleville is the obvious one, but Ballinasloe is not much better.

Some towns were also served by branches, for example Naas was on the Tullow branch, but the modern Sallins & Naas, is two miles from the centre.

Wicklow was originally served by the Murrough station, the goods station for most of it's life, it had a commuter service from 1969 until the service was extended to Arklow in the mid seventies. The town has expanded so much that the mainline station is now built up also.

Charles Babbage

tabbey wrote: »

Newry had two stations at street level, just above river level.
One was called Edward Street. They were on the Goraghwood to Warrenpoint branch.

Newry had 3 stations, with the Bridge st station on the Greenore Line.
But this doesn't change my point about the mainline not descending to river level.

there is even a video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTAc1kq7a6s