Do Estate Agents Lie About Bids

Bob24

notharrypotter wrote: »

Everyone is in favour of greater transparency until it directly affects them.
Cant have it both ways.

This is why we need clear regulation. If the rules are clear, the same for everyone, and enforced they will be accepted. Otherwise everybody will try to dodge them.

And actually to prevent dodgy bids there is an easy solution which doesn't involve peopel having to disclose their financial situation: have people sign a contract which makes every of their bids binding and leads to a 1000 euros financial penalty of not acted upon. No more dodgy bids then.

Nekarsulm

Bob24 wrote: »

This is why we need clear regulation. If the rules are clear, the same for everyone, and enforced they will be accepted. Otherwise everybody will try to dodge them.

And actually to prevent dodgy bids there is an easy solution which doesn't involve peopel having to disclose their financial situation: have people sign a contract which makes every of their bids binding and leads to a 1000 euros financial penalty of not acted upon. No more dodgy bids then.

In which case you no longer can sell "By private treaty" and the seller cannot decide if they want to hold out for more, but must sell. Great untill its you that are selling.....

valoren

It's galling that for something that would be the biggest financial commitment in a person's/couples life is conducted in an industry that has absolutely ZERO transparency.

"Hi, I'd like to bid 300,000 for the property"
"(lying through their teeth) We've just received an offer of 310 today"
"Oh...ok....leave it with me"

*ends up offering 312,000*

Bob24

Nekarsulm wrote: »

In which case you no longer can sell "By private treaty" and the seller cannot decide if they want to hold out for more, but must sell. Great untill its you that are selling.....

I said the offer should be binding. I didn't say the seller should be forced t accept any offer made to them ;-) But if course they should be forced to give a yes or no answer in a given time-frame and stick to it once given, which seems fair to everyone (basically each party has to act timely and deliver on their commitements).

whiskeyman

I honestly don't think EAs would risk it and it's not worth their while.
They just care about listings and selling it.... the difference in commission is nominal and they do get audited.

I personally believe it's more likely the sellers themselves getting friends or family to put in 'phantom' bids to inflate the price.


As mentioned here before, it's best you try not think about it and just offer what you believe the property is worth for you.

allibastor

allibastor wrote: »

I do love to hear when a house has been for sale for AGES that the second you put in an offer a new offer comes right in behind it.

This can happen, guys sitting fence watching and waiting for the seller to capitulate and get woken up by an unexpected bid.

Nekarsulm

If I had a genuine customer for a house, and was at the agreed same price, I would always advise the vendor to sell.
You could screw around for weeks trying to get an extra 20,000 euro. Perhaps lose the genuine buyer altogether, and for what? The extra commission MIGHT amount to 400 Euro, and a lot of agents would be on 33% . So a month later closing, extra showings, phone calls, etc and all for €166 euro?
Nope, drop the hammer, get it out the door and move on to the nect one.

pablo128

Here's a thought. If people who are selling a house want buyers bidding each other up, put the house up for auction.

If they want a hassle free sale, put a price on the house and advertise it. No bidding. If it's not selling, lower the price or keep the house.

Bob24

pablo128 wrote: »

Here's a thought. If people who are selling a house want buyers bidding each other up, put the house up for auction.

If they want a hassle free sale, put a price on the house and advertise it. No bidding. If it's not selling, lower the price or keep the house.

Exactly. Property sales in Ireland are pretty much all auctions which don't want to be called that way.

It doesn't have to be that way and in many other countries it isn't. While I wouldn't bid without wanting to buy and having my finances sorted, I have zero sympathy for sellers and agents which are complaining about the high rate of failed sales as this is a direct consequence of to the way they choose to sell their properties.

Bob24

Bob24 wrote: »

Exactly. Property sales in Ireland are pretty much all auctions which don't want to be called that way.

And in a proper auction, once the hammer goes down the buyer is committed - none of this 'sale agreed' saga.

If mainstream auctions return I would hope that agents will use the disclosed reserve system like allsop do and not the 'advised minimum value' carp that they used before.

davo10

This is one of the few situations where the same person can have polar opposite opinions on the behaviour of EAs during the buying and selling of the same property depending on what the person wants to do.

When buying, many are suspicious of the EAs and feel they are being screwed in some way, be it phantom bids, EAs selling to friends, unwelcome requirements for proof of funds. Ultimately the buyer believes that the property is over priced and the vendor/EA are being greedy.

But when the same person goes to sell that same property, there is no directive to the EA to accept any bid at a "fair price" or to accept offers from buyers who have no proof of funds. Suddenly when the person is at the other end of the transaction the directive is to get the highest achievable price and there are no restrictions placed on the EAs performance of their job.

Go figure.

deisedays

i was in the market 2 years ago and was bidding at a house that was up for 190k. i bid 195k then the EA came back and said they had a bid of 200. I said 205k but at this stage I had no intention of paying 205K, I intended to get a sale agreed and get the surveyors report to get the value knocked back to well below 200k as I could see some obvious faults.
The other bidder came back and offered 222k and bought the house!!!!
I still drive by the place and laugh at this eejit who overpaid by 25k......
Moral of the story, if you really like the place bid away, you can always pull out later when you have sale agreed if you think you've bid too much.
You can always bid again, just do it by getting your solicitor to bid and buy in trust for you this time around.
I've very little time for EAs, so be a bit ruthless yourself and play them at their own game. Whatever you do, don't be an eejit!!!

notharrypotter

deisedays wrote: »

i was in the market 2 years ago and was bidding at a house that was up for 190k. i bid 195k then the EA came back and said they had a bid of 200. I said 205k but at this stage I had no intention of paying 205K,

you can always pull out later when you have sale agreed if you think you've bid too much.

And people blame the Estate Agent.:rolleyes:

Bob24

notharrypotter wrote: »

And people blame the Estate Agent.:rolleyes:

Righty so. The poster above could be seen as unreliable, but none of what he is saying goes against the rules set be the agent. I don't support the kind of attitude which was described, but at the same time if the professional in charge of the sale is taking no measures to prevent it from happening, they are directly responsible for it. Blaming that poster is not far from a shop offering free 30 days refund on a product to attract more buyers, and complaining when some buyers are indeed returning the product for s refund. If agents don't want funny bids, they can use a different sales method.

Nekarsulm

Deisedays, did you buy something else at the time? If not, are you not getting tired of driving by someone's home laughing at them?

Lumen

When buying a property in the current market where there's no information problem about what's for sale, the first step is to get over the fact that to complete a purchase you have to pay a price that nobody else thinks the property is worth.

deisedays

I think you are taking me too literally... I don't drive around laughing out of car windows....
I've made several purchases.....
The point I'm making is- be prepared to be a bit ruthless when it comes to property purchase. I can gaurentee you, EAs are.
If you think you have a phantom bidder, bid away..and away, till get the property sale agreed
Only then have a think about what you REALLY want to pay
A good surveyors report can get 5-10k off, no problem. there are many other ways of gaining....but I'm not going to give away all my secrets!
Slán!

Peterx

allibastor wrote: »

....I do love to hear when a house has been for sale for AGES that the second you put in an offer a new offer comes right in behind it.

This did happen my sister.
She was selling her house, it sat on the market for a good few weeks, not a whisper of interest and then two genuine bids arrived in on the same day.

I would have been extremely suspicious if I was either of those two bidders.

But in general I believe in an unregulated market like this there will be phantom bidders who are friends of either the seller or the estate agent.
There is no penalty and some people are unscrupulous.

almostbroke

I'm in the process of buying a house which was priced at €115,000....was told that there was one bid of €110....then when I enquired 3 days later was told by a different person in the same agents that there were three bidding on it and it was now €118.....a month later got a friend to enquire about the property and its still available and no mention of ANY bids on it...if there were 3 people bidding on it I think its strange that the three of them have pulled out....I don't believe there were any bids on it at all.......I think if there are bids on these houses then they should be made public.....this is so open to misuse by estate agents.

davo10

almostbroke wrote: »

I'm in the process of buying a house which was priced at €115,000....was told that there was one bid of €110....then when I enquired 3 days later was told by a different person in the same agents that there were three bidding on it and it was now €118.....a month later got a friend to enquire about the property and its still available and no mention of ANY bids on it...if there were 3 people bidding on it I think its strange that the three of them have pulled out....I don't believe there were any bids on it at all.......I think if there are bids on these houses then they should be made public.....this is so open to misuse by estate agents.

When you say "made public", do you mean that the name of the bidder and the amount bid should be published? I certainly wouldn't want anyone else to know when I'm bidding on property, the amount yes, the identity, no. So in effect you have been told the amount bid, which is all that should be "published".

almostbroke

Maybe sealed bids would be the way to go then....that way identities could be kept private....the way it is, its just open to misuse....with estate agents pretending that they've already got bids when in fact they haven't....

Askthe EA

almostbroke wrote: »

Maybe sealed bids would be the way to go then....that way identities could be kept private....the way it is, its just open to misuse....with estate agents pretending that they've already got bids when in fact they haven't....

It just doesn't happen, or at least extremely rarely. Let's break it down.

Let's say a house is offered at 300k. An agent makes between 1 & 2%. Let's take the median. 1.5%. The fee on 300k would be €4500. But remember, that's what the office makes. An agent himself will make anywhere between 10% and 30% of the fee as commission. Let's say 20%. €900 BEFORE tax. €600 after.

Let's say he lies and bumps u up 10k. €310k The commission is then 4650. He makes €930. 30 quid extra before tax.

No agent I know would risk their whole career for 30 euro. Admittedly, a fella working for himself might be tempted but if he got caught and lost his licence his whole business will be gone.

If anybody finds phantom bidding I URGE you to make a complaint to the PSRA.

crossvilla

An easy solution to stop this is for a government agency to register all bidders through a Web Portal that creates an audit trail for all bids. Once you lodge a €1,000 refundable deposit it allows you to make bids with an any Estate Agent or Private Seller online only with a unique code. This in the turn would allow a full audit of all house purchase patterns.

DivingDuck

Askthe EA wrote: »

No agent I know would risk their whole career for 30 euro. Admittedly, a fella working for himself might be tempted but if he got caught and lost his licence his whole business will be gone.

Almost certainly true, but the trouble is that's not the only reason that an agent might bring phantom bids to a prospective buyer.

A seller might have made it clear they'll refuse to sell below x price, which is high or very high for the property/area. For this example, let's say €300k. A bidder comes in and offers €270k, which is more in line with similar offerings, but the agent knows the seller will refuse this out of hand.

With no alternative bids, the property might sit on the books for weeks or months at this price, which means work for the agent with no guarantee of ever getting their commission. So the agent says there's another bid at €280k. The buyer then ups theirs to €285k, and now we're getting into the territory where the seller might consider accepting. They can then go back to the buyer and say there's a bid of, for example, €295k, and if they would match it, the seller would prefer to deal with them as the other bidder is in a chain/not fully approved/whatever. The sole potential purchaser, who began at a perfectly reasonable €270k, agrees to this because he has no choice if he really wants the property, and thus has been bid up €25k by the employment of a phantom bidder.

It doesn't have to be about an agent making "a few measly euro". It can be the difference between making any money and making no money. And when there's no requirement for bids to be genuine/proven/binding, there is nothing to stop any agent from employing these tactics at any time.

Senna

In 2009 we where house hunting, had been watching the local market and knew what had been on the market, what price and how long.
Towards the end of 2009, a house that had been on the market since just after the crash was dropping in price, but very slowly. We went for a viewing, it was current at 230k reduced from 290k. We were thinking of putting in a offer well below 200k, at the viewing the EA said they had just received a bid of 220k, I could have fallen on the ground laughing, the worst recession in memory, house was dropping by the month and now suddenly there's a bid of 220k. I would have bet my last euro that this was a phantom bid.
Anyway, said to the EA that we like the house but wouldn't be able to go to 220k, but call us if anything changes.
3 days later a sale agreed sign went up and the new family were in it a few months later.

I'd still think phantom bids happen but I would agree that an EA working on commission in a large Agents wouldnt bother with phantom bids, it just doesn't make sense for them.

STB.

You can tell when an Estate Agent is lying. Their lips are moving.

http://www.mortgageline.ie/never-trust-an-estate-agent/

And having been there, seen that, done that more than a grain of salt, patience and restraint is required. Do not end up in bargaining wars above your original budget.

A few years back I was looking at a house that was for sale and the EA who I had made an appointment with, who mentioned nothing about an open viewing, had people queuing outside and deliberately arrived late. Stuff I had not seen since the celtic tiger.

He was told to get fúcked right there and then.

whatnext

crossvilla wrote: »

An easy solution to stop this is for a government agency to register all bidders through a Web Portal that creates an audit trail for all bids. Once you lodge a €1,000 refundable deposit it allows you to make bids with an any Estate Agent or Private Seller online only with a unique code. This in the turn would allow a full audit of all house purchase patterns.

I actually like this idea in principle, but on the proviso that if your wallet can't back up your mouth you lose your deposit. This would also weed out the need for agents looking for proof of funds / finance.
You could bring it a step further where your bank or mortgage provider would have to validate your bid.
Also rather than €1000 I'd say 2.5% of the property value would be more appropriate, especially give current lending requirements. That would soon weed out the tyre kickers too...

athtrasna

Can we ease off the generalisations please. As with every other profession, there are good eggs and bad eggs.

Mod

lalababa

It would be nice to have every property sold by public auction, with very short 'hand over' of the keys/monies ( 2-3 weeks?). Prehaps some sort of liable trustworthy one stop shop ( government run?) nct type survey thingy ( not mandatory). Most of us fools piss a year of eve.s & w/ends away looking for a home! And after the handshake comes a looong wait for the 'hand over' :P It depends on if you enjoy the merry-go-round I suppose

Spanish Eyes

Well if anyone thinks there is shenanigans going on, checking the PPR would prove whether there was a phantom bid or not. Once the sale price is greater than your top bid was, well all is well surely?

I think some think the "phantom bids" are put out for you to up your bid.

I would just pick my limit and stick to it.

And I would always email every bid for the record.