Second Class!

Elliott S

smacl wrote: »

You're in a small minority there so, from a recent IT article;

Expect much to be made of the fact that it quotes Dublin figures. I expect people to argue that attendance outside Dublin is practically 100% to compensate. :pac:

BTW, when I click on the link there, nothing happens. Did you include the article?

smacl

Elliott S wrote: »

Expect much to be made of the fact that it quotes Dublin figures. I expect people to argue that attendance outside Dublin is practically 100% to compensate. :pac:

BTW, when I click on the link there, nothing happens. Did you include the article?

Fixed, linky. According to Wikipedia, based on figures from the Iona institute, the national attendance rate for Catholics was 30% in 2011. Given a steady decline in recent years I would expect it to be even less at this stage.

Elliott S

smacl wrote: »

Fixed, linky. According to Wikipedia, based on figures from the Iona institute, the national attendance rate for Catholics was 30% in 2011. Given a steady decline in recent years I would expect it to be even less at this stage.

It will be interesting to see what percentage of the country declares itself Catholic when the census figures are released. What do you think, personally? I think there will be a drop but I don't think it will be dramatic. There will still be many of the Catholics from middle-age and upwards around since last time. I think it will be in the 70s.

smacl

Elliott S wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what percentage of the country declares itself Catholic when the census figures are released. What do you think, personally? I think there will be a drop but I don't think it will be dramatic. There will still be many of the Catholics from middle-age and upwards around since last time. I think it will be in the 70s.

Pretty much the same. Once the Catholic church continue to exert significant control on the ethos of primary schools, and young children are told they are Catholic, that is an identity they're likely to keep. That said, I think most young parents who have had a more secular education themselves, such as in Educate Together, will be loathe to send their own kids to religious schools, so it is only going one way in the long term. The numbers will stabilise at some point to those who practise their religion, get value out of it, and enjoy being part of a religious community. Your guess is as good as mine when that would be, and I'd say the more liberal protestant groups could take in many of the generally Christian types that have problems with hard line Vatican dogma.

Elliott S

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

Were I a teacher in the school I would not be making it so easy, if you attend a catholic school you should be learning the catholic faith as its a vital and important part of a child's up bringing.

Also, on this. In both my primary and secondary schools which were Catholic in ethos, there were children who were not Catholic. They had to attend as the local schools were all Catholic ethos and presumably their families couldn't afford to send them away to a different school. None of these children were required to take part in the religion classes we had in the school. They had arranged it with the principal. It was recognised that they didn't have much choice, and they were accommodated. Rightfully so.

Do you mean to say that if you were a teacher in a school and the parents of some students had arranged for their children not to receive religious instruction, you would try to defy them and go against their wishes? If so, why would you feel entitled to do that?

Elliott S

Elliott S wrote: »

Also, on this. In both my primary and secondary schools which were Catholic in ethos, there were children who were not Catholic. They had to attend as the local schools were all Catholic ethos and presumably their families couldn't afford to send them away to a different school. None of these children were required to take part in the religion classes we had in the school. They had arranged it with the principal. It was recognised that they didn't have much choice, and they were accommodated. Rightfully so.

Do you mean to say that if you were a teacher in a school and the parents of some students had arranged for their children not to receive religious instruction, you would try to defy them and go against their wishes? If so, why would you feel entitled to do that?

I would make it know to the parents that it would be far better for their child to be allowed to become a catholic and if they still prevent their child from such an important thing the child is welcome to sit silently at the back and do homework or ideally go to another room. They certainly wouldn't we watching stuff on an iPad blatantly flaunting their lack of religion to other kids.

I'd also be making the parents aware that taking their child on holidays during term is very frowned upon.

Look ideally catholic schools would only allow catholic children, but as things stand parents who aren't catholic still send their children to catholic faith schools and then complain that they are leaning religion and receiving he sacraments. A move towards how catholic schools in the UK operate would make things interesting, the schools my family send their children to over there wouldn't let you in the gate if you weren't not only catholic but practising. Its no surprise that they are also exceptionally good schools that even catholic children struggle to get into such is the demand.

At the end of it all I do feel sorry for those who have turned their back on religion (or were unfortunate enough to never have been thought to be catholic) but really they should not be forcing their child down the same route and should allow them lean the faith.

Qs

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

A move towards how catholic schools in the UK operate would make things interesting, the schools my family send their children to over there wouldn't let you in the gate if you weren't not only catholic but practising.

Wouldn't let you in the gate if you were poor either.

Elliott S

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

A move towards how catholic schools in the UK operate would make things interesting, the schools my family send their children to over there wouldn't let you in the gate if you weren't not only catholic but practising. Its no surprise that they are also exceptionally good schools that even catholic children struggle to get into such is the demand.

The demand would be great among Catholics parents in the UK. Parents in the UK in general aren't tripping over themselves to get their children into Catholic schools over there. Makes sense. Why would non-Catholics choose to have their children receive Catholic instruction? Grammar schools would be the most popular schools for parents who can't afford private in the UK. Some grammar schools are Catholic but most aren't. So to sum up, Catholic schools in the UK are popular with Catholics. Well, there's a shocker.

And there are far fewer Catholic schools over there so of course they would be oversubscibed. It's not relevant to the Irish education system where most people have little choice but to send their children to a Catholic school.

PopePalpatine

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

Ireland is a much worse place for the fact many people are turning their back on the catholic faith, as a friend was pointing out recently its coincided with the big increase of people suffering from things like depression too.

I prefer living in a country where the RCC can't get away with moving paedo priests between parishes when they've raped/molested another child, and where women aren't locked up in the Magdalene concentration camps.

Also, that last bit about depression serves to further the image of the ultramontane, Catholic gombeen who knows jacksh*t about mental health.

Elliott S

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

I would make it know to the parents that it would be far better for their child to be allowed to become a catholic

You'd be saying that to Johnny Muslim, Joe Atheist and Mary Jew? You would in your hoop.

Qs

Elliott S wrote: »

The demand would be great among Catholics parents in the UK. Parents in the UK in general aren't tripping over themselves to get their children into Catholic schools over there. Makes sense. Why would non-Catholics choose to have their children receive Catholic instruction? Grammar schools would be the most popular schools for parents who can't afford private in the UK. Some grammar schools are Catholic but most aren't. So to sum up, Catholic schools in the UK are popular with Catholics. Well, there's a shocker.

And there are far fewer Catholic schools over there so of course they would be oversubscibed. It's not relevant to the Irish education system where most people have little choice but to send their children to a Catholic school.

TBF Catholic schools are popular in Britain with a lot of people but not because of ethos etc. Its due to deliberately excluding poor kids and kids with learning difficulties. They skew the stats that way so people think their child will get a better education there (and many probably don't want their kids interacting with the poor, you know like Jesus always said "**** the poor").

Christy42

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

I would make it know to the parents that it would be far better for their child to be allowed to become a catholic and if they still prevent their child from such an important thing the child is welcome to sit silently at the back and do homework or ideally go to another room. They certainly wouldn't we watching stuff on an iPad blatantly flaunting their lack of religion to other kids.

I'd also be making the parents aware that taking their child on holidays during term is very frowned upon.

Look ideally catholic schools would only allow catholic children, but as things stand parents who aren't catholic still send their children to catholic faith schools and then complain that they are leaning religion and receiving he sacraments. A move towards how catholic schools in the UK operate would make things interesting, the schools my family send their children to over there wouldn't let you in the gate if you weren't not only catholic but practising. Its no surprise that they are also exceptionally good schools that even catholic children struggle to get into such is the demand.

At the end of it all I do feel sorry for those who have turned their back on religion (or were unfortunate enough to never have been thought to be catholic) but really they should not be forcing their child down the same route and should allow them lean the faith.

Stop using my taxes to fund them and I won't send any kids there.

Hotblack Desiato

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

I'm being serious.

I have seen many posts by this poster and to be frank they have a terrible attitude and a massive lack of respect for the catholic faith and its importance in Irish life and to Irish people. You would wonder why they came to live here at all if they don't want to respect how things work here and how the catholic faith is a key part of Irish life from baptism, to school, to marriage and to death and all that's in between.

I have seen many posts by you and to be frank they have a terrible attitude and a massive lack of respect for anyone who happens to be non-catholic, but these last two take the biscuit. Vile stuff.

I could just as easily say that you should go off and live in the Vatican if you never want to hear a dissenting voice or make any accommodation for non-catholics in any way.

So is catholicism about hatred or love? because I'm not seeing any love here.

All the likes of you are doing is driving away the moderates, soon only the extremists will be left. You will have a 'pure' church but a very small one, maybe that's what you want - but you can have no complaint whatsoever when society as a whole ignores your silly demands that it run itself along lines your church dictates.

Hotblack Desiato

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

Ireland is a much worse place for the fact many people are turning their back on the catholic faith, as a friend was pointing out recently its coincided with the big increase of people suffering from things like depression too.

Maybe that's where the likes of AWARE are going wrong, nothing like the bate of a leather or a priest's mickey up your bum to ward off the black dog :rolleyes:

looksee

If nox is a genuine poster then it is very sad that they are so bitter and have such a closed mind. Especially that they are in their 30s, what a miserable, self-righteous path they are taking in life. They should have our sympathy.

Hotblack Desiato

I can't have any sympathy for someone who spouts bile about people like me and wants to oppress me and convert my children.

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

All the likes of you are doing is driving away the moderates, soon only the extremists will be left. You will have a 'pure' church but a very small one, maybe that's what you want - but you can have no complaint whatsoever when society as a whole ignores your silly demands that it run itself along lines your church dictates.

I have no idea where you get the idea that I'm in anyway extreme, I'm not in the least. Any catholic will believe that leaning about becoming a catholic both at home and in school as well as getting the sacraments is a very important part of a child's upbringing and will think atheists are wrong to deny their children of this. However as things stand it would be best if they just didn't send there children to catholic schools so that they aren't sitting at the back while other kids are trying to learn about the catholic faith or coming in complaining to teachers making their job even more difficult than it is. Nothing stopping them setting up their own schools if the demand is there, which it obviously isn't.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Maybe that's where the likes of AWARE are going wrong, nothing like the bate of a leather or a priest's mickey up your bum to ward off the black dog :rolleyes:

These cliche comments didn't take long :rolleyes:....

Hotblack Desiato

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

However as things stand it would be best if they just didn't send there children to catholic schools

They're not doing it by choice. Don't give me this 'set up their own schools' crap when you're sitting pretty on 90% of primary schools, and you know well that no new school can receive state funding without Dept of Education approval. New schools can only open where demographic demand exists.

looksee

I think you are not so much extreme as sanctimonious and pathetic. You do what you want, but don't try and tell other people how they should raise their children. If Ireland worked on the same basis as Germany, where you pay a church tax - a payment in support of your church - if you claim to be religious, then there would be a spectacular change in the demographic.

looksee

looksee wrote: »

I think you are not so much extreme as sanctimonious and pathetic. You do what you want, but don't try and tell other people how they should raise their children. If Ireland worked on the same basis as Germany, where you pay a church tax - a payment in support of your church - if you claim to be religious, then there would be a spectacular change in the demographic.

The German system is a disgrace I don't even know how its allowed. Its essentially government enforced extortion if people wish to practice their religion.

I put money in the basket at mass and at home our envelopes are returned every week with the dues. An amount I deem fair not an amount the government has decided as a way to basically try to force people to declare they are not religious officially even if they are as the amount of money it will cost them is so much they have no choice.

Of course if something like that was introduced there would be a massive drop in the official numbers but it would be totally false as people would still practice. Never ever going to happen anyway so not something to worry about.

Hotblack Desiato

looksee wrote: »

I think you are not so much extreme as sanctimonious and pathetic.

It's pretty extreme to say that non-catholics in Ireland should convert their children or f**k off.

I agree that it is sanctimonious and pathetic. I pity people who are so invested in the religious hive mind that they have to spout that sort of hatred at non-believers or even believers of a slightly different stripe!

You do what you want, but don't try and tell other people how they should raise their children. If Ireland worked on the same basis as Germany, where you pay a church tax - a payment in support of your church - if you claim to be religious, then there would be a spectacular change in the demographic.

Best thing that could ever happen, which is why it'll never happen. Let these devout catholics put their money where their mouthy internet bravado is, and see who is actually prepared to pay cash money to gain access to this 'wonderful' catholic education which in reality is funded by Joe and Jane Tax-bloody-Payer.

Hotblack Desiato

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

An amount I deem fair not an amount the government has decided as a way to basically try to force people to declare they are not religious officially even if they are as the amount of money it will cost them is so much they have no choice.

hahhhaha you don't know what you're talking about. The churches who receive church tax decide themselves how much the church tax is.

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's pretty extreme to say that non-catholics in Ireland should convert their children or f**k off.

I never said that, I have no problem with non-catholics in Ireland I know many and am friends with some. They only come to my attention (for being non-catholic reasons) when they send their kids to catholic schools and then complain they are being taught the catholic faith while often being very derogatory sprouting things like "fairly tales" etc (not the people I know obviously) which is highly offensive when talking about topics very important and very much real things, its their loss they wont accept they are real.

I'm also perfectly entitled to express the opinion that I think they are wrong to not believe in god and wrong to teach this to their children, sure how could any religious person agree with a person on this topic when its in total contradiction of their beliefs.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

hahhhaha you don't know what you're talking about. The churches who receive church tax decide themselves how much the church tax is.

Its totally irrelevant anyway so no point in even discussing it.

PopePalpatine

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

Its totally irrelevant anyway so no point in even discussing it.

Why is it irrelevant? Flying Spaghetti Monster forbid you might gain some empathy for us heathens.

PopePalpatine

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Why is it irrelevant? Flying Spaghetti Monster forbid you might gain some empathy for us heathens.

What relevance does the system in Germany which is nothing like here nor will it ever be have in this discussion.

Its about as relevant as discussing the price of a pint in Berlin.

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

........... nothing like ..... a priest's mickey up your bum to ward off the black dog......

We'll take your word for it.

ben.schlomo

Surely after 15000 posts people here must know not to engage with nox, hes the ultimate 'one upper', whatever you know he will know one thing more just to top you. Dont think ive ever seen him concede a point in a single conversation, hes great reading though, like listening to an auld lad in the pub from the 50's. Hes like a living museum of Ireland in an era long gone, thankfully.

ben.schlomo

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Surely after 15000 posts people here must know not to engage with nox, hes the ultimate 'one upper', whatever you know he will know one thing more just to top you. Dont think ive ever seen him concede a point in a single conversation, hes great reading though, like listening to an auld lad in the pub from the 50's. Hes like a living museum of Ireland in an era long gone, thankfully.

Can't help the fact I'm always right and know more than most people.

Elliott S

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

while often being very derogatory sprouting things like "fairly tales" etc (not the people I know obviously) which is highly offensive when talking about topics very important and very much real things, its their loss they wont accept they are real.

You know what forum you're on, right?

People who are atheists generally believe that religions follow fairytales. That is their belief. It's not derogatory, it's what they think. You think it's derogatory and if you're going take offence at it, you're probably in the wrong place.

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Surely after 15000 posts people here must know not to engage with nox, hes the ultimate 'one upper', whatever you know he will know one thing more just to top you. Dont think ive ever seen him concede a point in a single conversation, hes great reading though, like listening to an auld lad in the pub from the 50's. Hes like a living museum of Ireland in an era long gone, thankfully.

You're right. I think never being able to concede a point ever comes across incredibly pig-headed. Pig-headedness and logic don't mix, in my experience. It's a sad position to take in life, IMO.

Elliott S

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

Can't help the fact I'm always right and know more than most people.

You are very frequently not right. I've noticed you never reply to posts where people logically demonstrate how you are wrong (for example, being presented with the fact that only just over half the marriages in Ireland last year had a Catholic ceremony and the fact that these days, weekly mass attendance runs at 30%). You seem to decide to ignore them as they don't fit in with your own worldview. It's a very narrow-minded way to be. But hey, it's your life.

PopePalpatine

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

Can't help the fact I'm always right and know more than most people.

You seem to know ****-all about why or how the RCC's iron grip on this country is rusting away.

Elliott S

Elliott S wrote: »

You are very frequently not right. I've noticed you never reply to posts where people logically demonstrate how you are wrong (for example, being presented with the fact that only just over half the marriages in Ireland last year had a Catholic ceremony and the fact that these days, weekly mass attendance runs at 30%). You seem to decide to ignore them as they don't fit in with your own worldview. It's a very narrow-minded way to be. But hey, it's your life.

I would rather go by what I see myself. I have a wide circle of friends, and have an even wider circle of acquaintances, facebook friends, class mates from school etc and I would see probably 90% of weddings being Catholic ceremonies (obviously I'm not saying I attend all these but I see them popping on facebook all the time).

Dublin is badly skewing the figures imo, with a large number of people living there from abroad on top of other reasons. I can guarantee you that percentage would increase quite a bit if it was limited to Irish people.

Elliott S

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

I would rather go by what I see myself. I have a wide circle of friends, and have an even wider circle of acquaintances, facebook friends, class mates from school etc and I would see probably 90% of weddings being Catholic ceremonies (obviously I'm not saying I attend all these but I see them popping on facebook all the time).

This is all anecdotal. If where you go to mass has figures that high, it has to balance out elsewhere to fit the stats. Other churches around the country must be on their last legs. And none of the civil ceremonies I've attended have been in Dublin.

Dublin and non Irish-born people don't account for it all. 20 years ago when mass attendance was 80%, Dublin was part of the country. Why would Dublin account for most the change now when they were part of the country when attendance was high?

You're in complete denial. It's fine though, you be like that. Things will continue to change, no matter how much you choose to ignore it.

As for schools, Educate Together schools are massively, extremely oversubcribed. So much so that people I know who get their kids in are shocked as they consider it an impossible ask. A lot of people want their kids in these schools. They continue to multiply and I don't see it stopping any time soon. But many people live far away from one and are stuck with a Catholic ethos school. Thankfully many Catholic ethos schools don't share your attitude and realise that they will have children of other and no religion in their student body who have no choice but to attend school there. And they deal with it appropriately.

Electric Sheep

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Surely after 15000 posts people here must know not to engage with nox, hes the ultimate 'one upper', whatever you know he will know one thing more just to top you. Dont think ive ever seen him concede a point in a single conversation, hes great reading though, like listening to an auld lad in the pub from the 50's. Hes like a living museum of Ireland in an era long gone, thankfully.

Nox is a piece of performance art, and quite cleverly done. He manages to skirt on the edges of disbelief while never quite going over it. I expect to see a book in a few years time where he reveals just how he persuaded so many on boards.ie that he was real.

Hotblack Desiato

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

Can't help the fact I'm always right and know more than most people.

Humility - we've heard of it.

Absolam

Elliott S wrote: »

Nah, location is a far more important determinant for most people. Most poeple can't afford to send their kids away to school which is why we don't have a big private school sector in this country.

Well.. perhaps quality within a reasonable distance then, where reasonable depends on a parents willingness to compromise quality of education for convenience. Some will go further for better, some just want what's closest, even if it's ethos is at odds with their own beliefs.

ben.schlomo

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

I would rather go by what I see myself. I have a wide circle of friends, and have an even wider circle of acquaintances, facebook friends, class mates from school etc and I would see probably 90% of weddings being Catholic ceremonies (obviously I'm not saying I attend all these but I see them popping on facebook all the time).

Dublin is badly skewing the figures imo, with a large number of people living there from abroad on top of other reasons. I can guarantee you that percentage would increase quite a bit if it was limited to Irish people.

Doolin hotel are doing on average around 2/3 humanist/civil ceremonies a week, interesting isn't it. And that's just one small village.

ben.schlomo

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Doolin hotel are doing on average around 2/3 humanist/civil ceremonies a week, interesting isn't it. And that's just one small village.

It's also a hot spot for weddings where people come from all over the country to get married, hardly your typical rural village. On top of that the people who travel somewhere for their wedding are less lightly to have a catholic ceremony as the woman's local church is where these happen the vast majority of the time. Now some people have the ceremony and then travel after for the reception or course, I've travelled 2 hours from the church to reception in two of the weddings I've been at but when the whole event happens away somewhere else in the country it's usually going to be a civil ceremony.

Jamsiek

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

I would rather go by what I see myself. I have a wide circle of friends, and have an even wider circle of acquaintances, facebook friends, class mates from school etc and I would see probably 90% of weddings being Catholic ceremonies (obviously I'm not saying I attend all these but I see them popping on facebook all the time).

So you deny statistics because you know better because of your "circle of friends"?
Nice way to lose an argument

Electric Sheep

Jamsiek wrote: »

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

I would rather go by what I see myself. I have a wide circle of friends, and have an even wider circle of acquaintances, facebook friends, class mates from school etc and I would see probably 90% of weddings being Catholic ceremonies (obviously I'm not saying I attend all these but I see them popping on facebook all the time).

So you deny statistics because you know better because of your "circle of friends"?
Nice way to lose an argument

Nox pretends not to know that a large circle of friends is not the same as a wide circle of friends. He does not move out of his comfort zone of those who think like his daddy.

robindch

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

I would rather go by what I see myself. I have a wide circle of friends, and have an even wider circle of acquaintances, facebook friends, class mates from school etc and I would see probably 90% of weddings being Catholic ceremonies (obviously I'm not saying I attend all these but I see them popping on facebook all the time).

Seem you might be living in a Filter Bubble.

robindch

^^^ And on a related topic, I wonder what a catholic version of The Truman Show would look like - ideas anybody?

Huntergonzo

Ah nox is only taking the piss, I get a good laugh out of his posts to be honest but I know he's not serious. The worrying thing is though that there are genuine lunatics out there, with these closed off, selfish opinions and they seem to want Ireland to revert back the authoritarian catholic dictatorship we had back in the 30s-50s.

iguana

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

I can guarantee you that percentage would increase quite a bit if it was limited to Irish people.

All the anecdotal evidence I've heard suggests the opposite. Most people I know who go to mass, say their churches were largely empty for Sunday service until the Polish immigrated here in fairly large numbers as they are more likely to go to mass. Despite the Polish influx mass attendance is still in the doldrums.

The Limerick parish I grew up in has two churches and used to have 3 resident priests who were assisted by visiting priests to run the 9 Saturday evening/Sunday services that were held each week, and right up until the mid-90s all the services were full. The church hall at the side of the bigger church needing to be opened and temporary seating laid out for the main services and it was still standing room only for latecomers. Now there is just one priest, who holds one mass a week in each near empty church and then travels out to rural parishes to hold services there as they parishes can't justify full-time priests anymore. One of the city centre churches was only saved from being sold recently because some wealthy American convent decided to finance it, as the diocese could no longer justify the expenditure of running a near empty church each day.

Elliott S

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Ah nox is only taking the piss, I get a good laugh out of his posts to be honest but I know he's not serious. The worrying thing is though that there are genuine lunatics out there, with these closed off, selfish opinions and they seem to want Ireland to revert back the authoritarian catholic dictatorship we had back in the 30s-50s.

No, Huntergonzo, he is deadly serious. And honestly believes he in the majority with his views. Sure, let him off, religion will continue to lose ground whether he wants to believe it or not.

iguana wrote: »

All the anecdotal evidence I've heard suggests the opposite. Most people I know who go to mass, say their churches were largely empty for Sunday service until the Polish immigrated here in fairly large numbers as they are more likely to go to mass. Despite the Polish influx mass attendance is still in the doldrums.

An interesting point I had never considered but it makes a whole lot of sense. Polish people would make up one of the biggest immigrant groups in the country.

My parent's west of Ireland, rural parish, where I grew up, shows a similar decline, if a bit less dramatic due to the older and lower population than a city parish would have. There is three churches in the parish. 20 years ago, each church had a Saturday night and Sunday morning service. So six services in total in the parish across the weekend. Each of these masses would have been packed out. The latecomers would stand in the porch area. There was definitely two priests in the parish and maybe three twenty years ago.

Today there is one priest and three masses said, a Sunday service in each church. That might not seem like a dramatic decline, but each church, whilst reasonably full during the Sunday Mass, always has seating available and some left over once the service begins. Nobody is ever left standing. So it is a decline in attendance of over 50% since the mid 90s, from what I can gauge. This is in a very conservative, rural community comparatively. And one that has a decent population of Polish immigrants who likely are helping to keep the numbers up, as you point out.

Walter H Price

Elliott S wrote: »

No, Huntergonzo, he is deadly serious. And honestly believes he in the majority with his views. Sure, let him off, religion will continue to lose ground whether he wants to believe it or not.An interesting point I had never considered but it makes a whole lot of sense. Polish people would make up one of the biggest immigrant groups in the country.

it is fascinating the drop off in the last 10 years in terms of the number of religious people you meet now particularly under the age of 50 their a real rarity. 6 weddings in our office over the next 18 months including my own and only 1 is a church wedding. Mybe its diffent down the country but certainly in dublin the old RCC seems to have very very little following from the 40 and under demographic, to be honest i thinks its past the point of safe return in terms of being able to grow numbers again , and looks like its ito a long goodbye sorot of fade out

Walter H Price

Walter H Price wrote: »

it is fascinating the drop off in the last 10 years in terms of the number of religious people you meet now particularly under the age of 50 their a real rarity. 6 weddings in our office over the next 18 months including my own and only 1 is a church wedding. Mybe its diffent down the country but certainly in dublin the old RCC seems to have very very little following from the 40 and under demographic, to be honest i thinks its past the point of safe return in terms of being able to grow numbers again , and looks like its ito a long goodbye sorot of fade out

Out of about 14 weddings in the last 2 years from my friends and my gfs friends only 1 wasn't a full catholic church wedding and a large hotel reception after. Also you can't use the "people you associate with" excuse really as for one thing religion had or has no influence on the people I hang around with (they are still mostly school friends) and while I and my friends are from a rural area my gf is from a city in a different part of the country so her friends are very much separated from me and where I'm from so you definitely can't use the "type of people you hang around with" excuse here. The one non-church wedding was one of her friends too, all my friends (both male and female) got married in a church, I have only one friend who doesn't plan on it.

smacl

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

Out of about 14 weddings in the last 2 years from my friends and my gfs friends only 1 wasn't a full catholic church wedding and a large hotel reception after. Also you can't use the "people you associate with" excuse really as for one thing religion had or has no influence on the people I hang around with (they are still mostly school friends) and while I and my friends are from a rural area my gf is from a city in a different part of the country so her friends are very much separated from me and where I'm from so you definitely can't use the "type of people you hang around with" excuse here. The one non-church wedding was one of her friends too, all my friends (both male and female) got married in a church, I have only one friend who doesn't plan on it.

Rather than rely on first hand experience which is entirely anecdotal, you'd do well to look at national statistics. As of 2014, 28% of weddings in Ireland were civil ceremonies and a further 4% humanist. If you take the time to look at statistics for previous years, the percentage of Catholic weddings is in decline whereas the number of civil ceremonies is increasing.

John_Rambo

I was at a church wedding recently, first one in years. All previous ones have been civil, humanist etc.. (including mine 12 years ago)

The latest one was purely for the parents and the cute architecture "look" of the church (stained glass windows etc...) unfortunately for the poor priest, them and poor me. Boring and a bit silly.

I'd say 50% of the few dwindling church weddings these days are for the look of the church, the photos and/or to please parents that want to keep up appearances.

You gotta feel sorry for the religious celebrant irrelevantly banging away on the pulpit/alter. Not sure if they'd prefer people not to do this or continue doing it to keep up the pretense for cultural significance.

Elliott S

Evelynn Vast Stadium wrote: »

Out of about 14 weddings in the last 2 years from my friends and my gfs friends only 1 wasn't a full catholic church wedding and a large hotel reception after. Also you can't use the "people you associate with" excuse really as for one thing religion had or has no influence on the people I hang around with (they are still mostly school friends) and while I and my friends are from a rural area my gf is from a city in a different part of the country so her friends are very much separated from me and where I'm from so you definitely can't use the "type of people you hang around with" excuse here. The one non-church wedding was one of her friends too, all my friends (both male and female) got married in a church, I have only one friend who doesn't plan on it.

Well, only 56% of weddings in Ireland last year were Catholic and it has been falling year on year. I prefer to go by statistics myself. And no, Dublin can't account for most of that. Nor immigrants, as pointed out, one of the biggest immigrant groups in the country are also from a traditionally Catholic country. You and your "wide circle of friends" don't match the big picture.

More and more people will have civil ceremonies as they become more common and people will realise that they can do as they please for their wedding and that they don't have to follow the old rule of getting married in the bride's parish. A girl I worked in my last job solely had a Catholic ceremony for hers and the groom's parents. She and the groom are atheists.