Rush-Lusk Credit Union.

martinn123

Gardai are looking into possible ''Issue'' at the Credit Union.

Members have been written to, and are urged to check their balance :eek:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0602/792795-credit-union-rush-lusk/

cbreeze

Snip

PopTarts

A job vacancy from 4 years ago?

martinn123

PopTarts wrote: »

A job vacancy from 4 years ago?

Obviously the successful candidate, had all the right qualifications.:rolleyes:

Dizzyblonde

Mod note Nobody has been charged yet and it's unfair to suggest that it's someone who took up a particular position, especially as they could be easily identified.

Wishbone Ash

martinn123 wrote: »

...Members have been written to, and are urged to check their balance :eek:...

Got one of those letters but, in all fairness, how is one to know what their balance should be?

Carawaystick

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Got one of those letters but, in all fairness, how is one to know what their balance should be?

It's bizzare alright, It's basically saying is this statement we sent saying how much you have in your account, how much you have in your account...

Maybe the amounts in concern would stand out like a sore thumb if there was anything amiss in your statement.

LeoB

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

Mod note Nobody has been charged yet and it's unfair to suggest that it's someone who took up a particular position, especially as they could be easily identified.

Your right and thanks for posting that reminder.

From my experience of going in there you could not meet nicer staff . Hopefully it will be sorted soon and good people will be able to move on

martinn123

Well I thought things were bad, yesterday,

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/cash-scandal-credit-union-employee-won-a-car-in-rigged-draw-35177748.html

Safe used to store cash unrecorded in accounts
* Rigged car raffle fears result in car refunds
* Deeds to foreign-based properties found in office

But it looks like the end of the Credit Union, in Rush/Lusk

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/liquidator-to-be-appointed-to-rush-credit-union-1.2851264

The Central Bank is expected to announce on Wednesday that a liquidator has been appointed to the Credit Union in Rush, north county Dublin.

charlietheminxx

I'm baffled and angry. Has anyone been through a process like this before? How long should it take before we can access our savings?

jwwb

I noticed that the Board of Directors section is "currently being updated" but the wayback machine never forgets

Stheno

charlietheminxx wrote: »

I'm baffled and angry. Has anyone been through a process like this before? How long should it take before we can access our savings?

Are they covered under the government scheme which guarantees protection for savings up to 100k ?

martinn123

Stheno wrote: »

Are they covered under the government scheme which guarantees protection for savings up to 100k ?

Yes, all savings are covered by State Guarantee, ( apparently no one has savings over 100K in Rush CU. ) (( apart from the cash in the safe, not sure who owns that ))

charlietheminxx

Stheno wrote: »

Are they covered under the government scheme which guarantees protection for savings up to 100k ?

Yes they are. It's just all a bit unsettling when the credit union is closed and there's been no direct notification to members. I'm not familiar with the liquidation process, must do some research.

martinn123

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Yes they are. It's just all a bit unsettling when the credit union is closed and there's been no direct notification to members. I'm not familiar with the liquidation process, must do some research.

I found this notice from the Central Bank, following the liquidation of Berehaven Credit Union

https://www.centralbank.ie/press-area/press-releases/Documents/140723%20Berehaven%20Information%20for%20Members.pdf

The process in Rush I assume will be similar.

charlietheminxx

martinn123 wrote: »

I found this notice from the Central Bank, following the liquidation of Berehaven Credit Union

https://www.centralbank.ie/press-area/press-releases/Documents/140723%20Berehaven%20Information%20for%20Members.pdf

The process in Rush I assume will be similar.

Thanks Martin. It's just a bad time of year to not have access to savings. Hopefully it's as simple as it was with Berehaven.

martinn123

This get's worse by the day

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/1102/828713-rush-credit-union/

The President of the High Court was told that investigations into the credit union had revealed significant misappropriation of funds and gardaí have been notified of suspected money laundering.

The court heard there had been no annual meeting called by Rush Credit Union since 2013, and no dividend paid to members since 2008.

If a meeting was called it would mean members would have to be informed of its financial position, which could have led to a run on deposits.

Carawaystick

Central bank statement
http://www.centralbank.ie/press-area/press-releases/Pages/STATEMENTONAPPOINTMENTOFJOINTPROVISIONALLIQUIDATORSTORUSHCREDITUNIONLIMITED.aspx

They say payments will be made in 20 working days, starting from Yesterday 2nd Nov

there is also this statement
http://www.centralbank.ie/press-area/press-releases/Documents/Rush%20QA%20FINAL.pdf

And if your children have an account in the credit union, you will need to open a new bank account for them to cash their chequeues

markad1

Some good staff there, what a mess for everyone

Carawaystick

Mrs C talked to a lady in Skerries CU yesterday.
Skerries CU are having their AGM next week and will decide whether to let people with addresses in Rush and Lusk join or not at the meeting.

LeoB

markad1 wrote: »

Some good staff there, what a mess for everyone

Very important that people remember this also. I dont have an account there but I know a lot of the people who work there and I know a lot of the founder members and they are deeply hurt by all that is happening. This has a long way to play out yet but the rumour mill is flying at the moment.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Mrs C talked to a lady in Skerries CU yesterday.
Skerries CU are having their AGM next week and will decide whether to let people with addresses in Rush and Lusk join or not at the meeting.

If this is true and I dont doubt you for a moment I would not join the credit union there in fact I would tell people about this. Who do they think they are?. This has nothing to do with members but a few bad eggs.

One thing that has really annoyed me was the tone of some of the reporting. It was like one particular journalist got pleasure from this mess. I have tried to contact the "person" but to no avail, as yet. Would love to know how a car draw was rigged though. Seems everyone who won anything in their draw is an insider now so I hope they do come out and name people for the sake of the good people.

Nobody has been charged with anything but some of the stuff been said is unbelievable. Unbelievable in that people are pointing the finger at anyone and anything. Never heard so many experts in all my life.

martinn123

LeoB wrote: »

If this is true and I dont doubt you for a moment I would not join the credit union there in fact I would tell people about this. Who do they think they are?. This has nothing to do with members but a few bad eggs.

Not sure what you mean by this LeoB, but maybe a misunderstanding

Credit Unions are governed by what's called a ''Common Bond'' meaning for one thing that residents from the parish's of Rush and Lusk could only join the local Credit Union.
Similarly with Skerries, Balbriggan etc

My read of the Skerries position is that they are willing to increase their ''Common Bond'' to cover Rush and Lusk, to allow residents join Skerries and avail of Credit Union facilities, which they cannot do today
So I see it as a positive move

EagererBeaver

LeoB wrote: »

Nobody has been charged with anything but some of the stuff been said is unbelievable. Unbelievable in that people are pointing the finger at anyone and anything. Never heard so many experts in all my life.

What has any journalist in a newspaper reported? What fingers have been pointed? At who?

Any reporting I've seen on the case has stuck to the facts of the matter.

LeoB

martinn123 wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by this LeoB, but maybe a misunderstanding

Credit Unions are governed by what's called a ''Common Bond'' meaning for one thing that residents from the parish's of Rush and Lusk could only join the local Credit Union.
Similarly with Skerries, Balbriggan etc

My read of the Skerries position is that they are willing to increase their ''Common Bond'' to cover Rush and Lusk, to allow residents join Skerries and avail of Credit Union facilities, which they cannot do today
So I see it as a positive move

Didnt think this came into play as are they not all part of Progressive credit union. Might be a misunderstanding on my part but I dont think it is up to members of local branch who joins. Could be wrong on this. But I see people from outside the locals areas are members of credit unions.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

What has any journalist in a newspaper reported? What fingers have been pointed? At who?

Any reporting I've seen on the case has stuck to the facts of the matter.

Felt one or two of the articles I read were not fair. Stuck to the facts? We dont really know the facts yet only that something has gone on and an investigation is taking place. No one has a problem with that but some of the articles were in my opinion unfair to the vast majority of staff who issued a statement yesterday stating their shock at what has gone on.


Irregularities were flagged 6 years ago. It was raised at an A.G.M by a member. I take it auditors or accountants would have been present at the A.G.M. I know in a club I am involved with our auditors deliver the "books" to the meeting. Could or should forensic accountants have been brought in much earlier?. With what had happened in our banking sector I think they should.

Only today did I read of questions been asked of the 3 groups who "look after" monitor credit unions, auditors, Central bank and ILCU who all had access to RLCU for years. Will these people bodies with responsibilities be held in any way accountable? Hopefully.

martinn123

To my untrained eye, it arrears two separate occurances have converged to bring about the downfall of the Credit Union.

The first we are all familiar with the recession. Loan arrears, bad lending decisions, and the massive devaluation in the value of the two properties, in Rush & Lusk, put the balance sheet in deficit
This lead to no annual general meetings as there would be a run on deposits.
The Car Draw is a symptom of lack of supervision, by the Commitee.

The second issue is the alleged fraud.

I won't elaborate on this, but if considerable sums are involved, this together with a damaged Balance Sheet, has led to a liquidation.

It appears in time Progressive may take over the Loan Book, and in the meantime members will be refunded their shares by the Liquidator.

Also Staff are out of work, possibly receiving only Statutary Redundancy, and deserve our sympathy.

Carawaystick

LeoB wrote: »

If this is true and I dont doubt you for a moment I would not join the credit union there in fact I would tell people about this. Who do they think they are?. This has nothing to do with members but a few bad eggs.

I'm not sure what your point is. When I joined Rush and Lusk CU, I had to prove I lived in Lusk, to be allowed join, by bringing in a postcard they posted to me at the address given. I assumed this is the way they roll, apart from Teachers / gards CU when you've to be a teacher or gard to join.

At the minute, there's no CU in Lusk. I've children with no bank accounts to cash the cheques with their savings the Deposit protection scheme are going to post to them, so if they could get an account is skerries credit union that would seem like a reasonably handy way of getting their savings.

LeoB

martinn123 wrote: »

To my untrained eye, it arrears two separate occurances have converged to bring about the downfall of the Credit Union.

The first we are all familiar with the recession. Loan arrears, bad lending decisions, and the massive devaluation in the value of the two properties, in Rush & Lusk, put the balance sheet in deficit
This lead to no annual general meetings as there would be a run on deposits.
The Car Draw is a symptom of lack of supervision, by the Commitee.

I think you have fairly nailed it here Martin.
I was often asked if I knew where this person or that person lived, obviously people had got loans and moved........ and left the loan behind.
I do think it was a bit easy to get loans from credit unions years ago. The credit union movement got to big for what it was supposed to be, "The peoples bank" as a founder member described it to me.

martinn123 wrote: »

The second issue is the alleged fraud.

I won't elaborate on this, but if considerable sums are involved, this together with a damaged Balance Sheet, has led to a liquidation.

It appears in time Progressive may take over the Loan Book, and in the meantime members will be refunded their shares by the Liquidator.

Also Staff are out of work, possibly receiving only Statutary Redundancy, and deserve our sympathy.

I think Progressive will take over from what I heard.
One thing for sure is the level of anger around the town at what has happened. People I met today were spitting fire. One person said to me "what do we do for Christmas?" And this was the real purpose of the credit union. To get people over through expensive times like Christmas, back to school or collage or some D.I.Y.

I have huge sympathy for the staff. I would be in the office regularly and they were always helping elderly people at the counter, making sure they were ok before they left. It some slap in the face for them.

Hopefully this awful mess can be brought to a close sooner rather than later.

LeoB

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is. When I joined Rush and Lusk CU, I had to prove I lived in Lusk, to be allowed join, by bringing in a postcard they posted to me at the address given. I assumed this is the way they roll, apart from Teachers / gards CU when you've to be a teacher or gard to join.

At the minute, there's no CU in Lusk. I've children with no bank accounts to cash the cheques with their savings the Deposit protection scheme are going to post to them, so if they could get an account is skerries credit union that would seem like a reasonably handy way of getting their savings.

Seems ridiculous to me that you cant join your next nearest credit union. Do they think every member was involved in whatever happened. I have never been a member of a local C.U. We have one at work and I have never met any of the staff in over 30 years membership. All done by post.

Carawaystick

LeoB wrote: »

Seems ridiculous to me that you cant join your next nearest credit union. Do they think every member was involved in whatever happened. I have never been a member of a local C.U. We have one at work and I have never met any of the staff in over 30 years membership. All done by post.

But where is the nearest CU to Rush? Last week it was in Rush.
Could any of us join the an post cu?
If it was the other way round, and say Skerries cu went bust, Rush cu would have to vote to change the catchment area too.

martinn123

The cheque is in the Post, LeoB is working hard to get it to you.

and it looks like Progressive may open for business in Rush.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/credit-union-services-return-to-area-after-9700-get-state-refund-35206356.html

Wishbone Ash

martinn123 wrote: »

The cheque is in the Post, LeoB is working hard to get it to you...

My daughter received hers today.

TOMs WIFE

Mine too. The central bank deposit protection scheme sent money quicker than I thought which is grand.

charlietheminxx

I got mine today too. I'll have to leave an Xmas tip for LeoB!

martinn123

Appointment of Liquidator confirmed today by High Court

Some comment about 12 Cars bought for the draw, but they can't trace any winners.
Can't post a link as I am on IPad, perhaps someone can post link please.

Muppets.

Username Exists.

Here.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/inquiry-into-rush-credit-union-cant-find-winners-of-15-cars-liquidators-appointed-over-insufficient-cash-reserves-765132.html

LeoB

http://www.thejournal.ie/rush-liquidator-3094180-Nov2016/

There is a lot of talk around the town at the moment. A lot of people are just happy to have had their cheques arrive.

People trying to link anyone and everyone to this mess. Like putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5!! To be even related to anyone working there is nearly a crime.

Spoke to a girl who worked there and she is heartbroken for the members and embarrassed by the whole mess. I didn't get into any ins and outs as I would prefer to wait until someone is charged with something.

I still think the credit union movement is a great thing but has gone in askew by lending large amounts of money. It was designed as a type of co-op for get people over things, like getting back to collage or small house hold jobs or a car loan.

As someone said earlier it was the peoples bank.

martinn123

I think this article by Charlie Weston, sums up the mess that was RCU.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/nobody-comes-away-clean-from-rotten-mess-35234805.html

Even though the reports are heavily redacted, they make clear that blank cheques were much in use, there were questionable expenses, there was personal use of credit union credit cards, and money laundering and tax evasion are also suspected.


Oh, and around €2m has gone missing.

LeoB

martinn123 wrote: »

I think this article by Charlie Weston, sums up the mess that was RCU.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/nobody-comes-away-clean-from-rotten-mess-35234805.html

Love to know where Charlie got his information. He always seemed ahead of the posse in reporting. Maybe a one of the members raised this with him or tipped him off.

The Central Bank seems to have been too indulgent of rule-breaking Rush Credit Union for too long. When news of the mess broke in the Irish Independent, it then feared a disorderly collapse.

They were indeed and someone in there should be held accountable imo. They fckd up the banks and now this. And quite possibly more on the way.

All in all, it seems that Rush Credit Union was a rotten, stinking mess that deserved its fate.

He seems to have an issue judging by his use of language in this piece. People deserve what is coming, if there is any justice. But "it" being Rush C.U and its members did not deserve this mess thrown at them.

On the car draw a lot of people take cash alternatives. The car draw Im in is taken from my wages each week. So people dont actually hand out €100 for a ticket.

jwwb

martinn123 wrote: »

Appointment of Liquidator confirmed today by High Court

Some comment about 12 Cars bought for the draw, but they can't trace any winners.
Can't post a link as I am on IPad, perhaps someone can post link please.

Muppets.

The names of a couple of winners of cars are in the Archive News Section of the Rush CU website. Also interesting result if you search for "Rush Credit Union Vegas".

Board of Directors section is "Being Updated" but if you search http://web.archive.org/web/20161031183859/http://rushcu.ie/content.asp?section=62 you can see the archived versions of this page.

LeoB

jwwb wrote: »

The names of a couple of winners of cars are in the Archive News Section of the Rush CU website. Also interesting result if you search for "Rush Credit Union Vegas".

So people from all over Ireland went off on trips to conferences, nothing illegal in that. Not only credit unions do that as we know from various reports into councils junkets to various places around the world. I know my union host an annual conference which costs a lot of money but there are some fairly serious workshops at these. I have heard from a former member of a Credit union board who attended 2 overseas conferences there were some good workshops/ training. and some nights entertainment after a meal.
That Vegas photo of Gerry Foley is a real tabloid cheap shot. So he was away on a trip and went dancing. Id say worse is happening. I hear too many people jumping to conclusions and finding people guilty before they have been given a chance to defend themselves. That is unfair. Im not trying to defend anyone but would like to justice and fair play. Get this sorted and let the good people move on.

The focus here needs to be on sorting out the mess and holding to account prosecuting anyone who was involved in anything that is illegal. In that I include the people with responsibilities for regulating and governing credit unions.

jwwb wrote: »

Board of Directors section is "Being Updated" but if you search http://web.archive.org/web/20161031183859/http://rushcu.ie/content.asp?section=62 you can see the archived versions of this page.

I heard a few names today of people who won cars and holidays. The credit union did not offer a cash alternatives to car prize winners.

martinn123

LeoB wrote: »

The focus here needs to be on sorting out the mess and holding to account prosecuting anyone who was involved in anything that is illegal. In that I include the people with responsibilities for regulating and governing credit unions.

I agree on the illegality question, however anyone responsible for regulating Credit Unions will not be a feature in this
Remember the Bank Regulator, his punishment was a Lump Sum, and a fat Pension, so don't expect anything else on that front

I heard a few names today of people who won cars and holidays. The credit union did not offer a cash alternatives to car prize winners.

Not sure that's correct, my understanding is that the ''winner'' had the option of taking the cash equivalent, for the Car.
Probably how the '' winnings'' went missing, pull a fictitious name out of a hat, and use one of the alleged, blank cheques for the prize.

jwwb

LeoB wrote: »

So people from all over Ireland went off on trips to conferences, nothing illegal in that. Not only credit unions do that as we know from various reports into councils junkets to various places around the world. I know my union host an annual conference which costs a lot of money but there are some fairly serious workshops at these. I have heard from a former member of a Credit union board who attended 2 overseas conferences there were some good workshops/ training. and some nights entertainment after a meal.

The photo dates from 2010 as far as I can ascertain. Rush CU was not able to pay a dividend in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and is wound up in 2016. I have no problem with people attending conferences and know that they can be useful but from the current situation I think it acceptable to question the efficacy.

LeoB

martinn123 wrote: »

I agree on the illegality question, however anyone responsible for regulating Credit Unions will not be a feature in this
Remember the Bank Regulator, his punishment was a Lump Sum, and a fat Pension, so don't expect anything else on that front

Sadly you could be right. But I think and hope there are more regulations in place and until someone is held accountable people should not rest. Hopefully the journalists will go after them with with plenty of ink in their pens.

martinn123 wrote: »

Not sure that's correct, my understanding is that the ''winner'' had the option of taking the cash equivalent, for the Car.
Probably how the '' winnings'' went missing, pull a fictitious name out of a hat, and use one of the alleged, blank cheques for the prize.

From what I read in one of the links to an old page there was no cash alternative and this might be why the garage was named. Rush C.U only supplied the car, like a voucher.

jwwb wrote: »

The photo dates from 2010 as far as I can ascertain. Rush CU was not able to pay a dividend in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and is wound up in 2016. I have no problem with people attending conferences and know that they can be useful but from the current situation I think it acceptable to question the efficacy.

Fair enough jwwb. My point would would be publishing the picture in the article is leading to a lot of rumours which might be very unfair to any individual.

thewatcher78

LeoB seems loathe for any criticism of those people intrusted to run the credit union. Its amazing people who had literally no "money" background were in positions for years were they able to dictate who got loans yet they themselves were running the place with carte blanche to money launder and steal from fellow locals who they had the cheek to run the rule over.

I hear one of those who was up to his neck in it has resigned from his high profile role involvement with a local club which LeoB has great affinity with it. Those involved in this shameful fiasco should be named and shamed they cost people their livelihoods!!

Dizzyblonde

thewatcher78 wrote: »

LeoB seems loathe for any criticism of those people intrusted to run the credit union. Its amazing people who had literally no "money" background were in positions for years were they able to dictate who got loans yet they themselves were running the place with carte blanche to money launder and steal from fellow locals who they had the cheek to run the rule over.

I hear one of those who was up to his neck in it has resigned from his high profile role involvement with a local club which LeoB has great affinity with it. Those involved in this shameful fiasco should be named and shamed they cost people their livelihoods!!

Welcome to Boards.

It's clear that there were serious wrongdoings at the credit union and hopefully anyone involved will be brought to justice. Yes they should be named and shamed, but Boards is not the place to do it since we have a policy of not naming individuals who haven't been found guilty. Also, if you read the charter you'll see that attacking a post is fine but attacking a poster is not so please bear that in mind.

LeoB

thewatcher78 wrote: »

LeoB seems loathe for any criticism of those people intrusted to run the credit union. Its amazing people who had literally no "money" background were in positions for years were they able to dictate who got loans yet they themselves were running the place with carte blanche to money launder and steal from fellow locals who they had the cheek to run the rule over.

No I am not loathe of any criticism of people entrusted to run Rush C.U. I do however think people were wreckless with some of the stuff been posted. Most of the people involved with Rush C.U are very good decent people?

We do know a small number got the braNch into serious trouble which nobody knew about. A few had suspicions but were quelled if that is the right word. Professionals didn't spot any wrong doing until it was way to late. If people are found guilty they should be locked up. No problem there. But let justice take its course oh and lock up the people who are responsible for regulating them also. Some of the posts were highly inflammatory on social media.
This whole mess should never have got to this point. As has been stated further back in this thread Irregularities were flagged nearly 7 years ago and nothing was done about it! Central bank knew there were problems 6 years ago and done nothing so how were volunteers on a committee supposed to spot them?

IF you actually read my posts you might see I like anyone else wants to whole mess dealt with quickly. There are serious questions to asked of the central bank and regulators also. There were some very good staff members working there who might well be out of a job and again in previous posts I said I hoped this would be sorted out very quickly.The longer it drags on the worse it is for everyone.

thewatcher78 wrote: »

I hear one of those who was up to his neck in it has resigned from his high profile role involvement with a local club which LeoB has great affinity with it. Those involved in this shameful fiasco should be named and shamed they cost people their livelihoods!!

You heard right. But I heard it differently. May have been asked to resign might be closer to what happened. I am not on the management committee but still involved in juvenile section so dont know what the exact story is or how the resignation unfolded. I just got an email saying there was a resignation from the club. There was no way anyone in the club knew what was going on.


They cant be named and shamed, YET. Not until the investigation is complete. If they cost people their livelihoods the people need to be compensated. If they are found guilty of fraud they should be locked up. Like a lot of other local people I feel very sorry for the good staff who I know quite well. Their good names have been destroyed and this is so wrong.

martinn123

Both Buildings now for Sale

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/liquidators-seek-950-000-for-rush-credit-union-s-two-buildings-1.2895544

650K for Rush, and 300K for Lusk, if anyone is interested

LeoB

martinn123 wrote: »

Both Buildings now for Sale

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/liquidators-seek-950-000-for-rush-credit-union-s-two-buildings-1.2895544

650K for Rush, and 300K for Lusk, if anyone is interested

Sad day to see this Martin.

Spoke to 2 people yesterday and very interesting. One of them was so genuinely hurt at what has happened. Her husband was a committee member for years and she got upset, her voice quivering. She was telling me about getting bits of decorating done and buying their first computer.

The other person, like me found it hard to believe what was happening. He is self employed and said he would not be where is without their help. He did say it was easy to get a loan, (maybe that was part of the problem) and he could service his loans easily enough but felt young people would find it much harder to get start up money for business.

jwwb

Lusk Office now "Sale Agreed"

martinn123

jwwb wrote: »

Lusk Office now "Sale Agreed"

That was quick,

BTY, they should tell the Receiver to go in and turn off the ATM, lit up the other night, but I presume it's not working.:D

Wishbone Ash

jwwb wrote: »

Lusk Office now "Sale Agreed"

Heard tonight that Rush is also sale agreed. I'd be inclined to think both prices were too low to have sold so quickly.

(Excuse my ignorance but do the buildings belong to the members?)