Tai Chi - South Dublin

TheCockpitGuy · 06-06-2016 10:55pm #1

A search of boards and google hasn't brought up too much information.

Looking for someone running Tai Chi class for beginners anywhere near enough to Tallaght/Rathfarmham/Templeogue areas.

Can anyone help?

Niall Keane · 08-06-2016 8:23pm

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Practical-Tai-Chi-Chuan-Ireland/157357437930539

Garry Hodgins runs this, south Dublin area, not sure exactly where. Message him and Im sure he'll get back to you. (was my old sparring partner, so I can safely vouch that he has the goods and can teach TCC as a martial art)

Paul Moran:
https://www.facebook.com/paul.kungfu?fref=nf

teaches TCC from a Yang Ban-hao lineage. Again, this guy has fought and trained successful fighters, so knows the business.

I'm not aware of any other teachers of tai chi chuan (boxing) as opposed to tai chi boxercise in the area.

There are other people around the area; Paul Mitchel (European and World Champ in Shaui Jiao and Sanda), Clare Sheehy (European Champ at Tui shou) and Shane McLoughlin also a European champ at tui shou (no jacket chinese wrestling) , dont think they teach though.

Bit of advice, if yo are looking for TCC as a martial art, ensire the coach has some sort of fight record / experience... you wouldn't go to a theorist who has never been wet to learn to swim...
That being said, if its just for health, most teachers out there should be ok. It is really like boxing and boxercise, save one very crucial problem... in the TCC world many of the boxercise boys claim and believe that they are boxers!!!

Raminahobbin · 08-06-2016 8:32pm

Stuart Breen from the Irish Tai Chi Association teaches classes just off the Naas Road in the Carriglea Industrial Estate. He's absolutely fantastic, can't recommend him enough.

Niall Keane · 09-06-2016 8:31pm

Raminahobbin wrote: »

Stuart Breen from the Irish Tai Chi Association teaches classes just off the Naas Road in the Carriglea Industrial Estate. He's absolutely fantastic, can't recommend him enough.

from their site:

Tai-Chi describes a way of life and a system of healing and exercise which combines physical training (martial art) with spiritual growth and mental discipline. Its history can be traced back to India and the development of Buddhism circa 500BC.

The philosophies of this practise became very popular and were embraced throughout the East, including China.

Tai Chi Chuan (Supreme Ultimate Boxing) developed in the Shao-lin monastery in Henan Province in Northern China approximately 1500 years ago. It grew out of the desire of the monks to become spiritually evolved through the philosophies of Buddhism and Taoism, whilst at the same time needing to defend themselves from the threat of bandits and nomads.

this is complete and utter bollox, and I'm sorry but there is no other word for it. Tai Chi Chuan has absolutely nothing to do with the Shaolin Monastery let alone India, it is a Daoist art not a Buddhist. It can be traced back as such:

http://sanshou.webs.com/lineage.htm

I'm not the only disciple and there are many styles, the main ones being Chen, Yang, Woo, Wu, Sun, Zhaobao and Wudang. BUT ALL of them bar Chen agree on that the founder is Chang San-Feng who practiced the art on Wudang Shan in the late 1300's. The Chens cite one of their ancestors... again middle ages, no one bullsh1ts about 500bc.... there are precursor "daoist" martial arts, but they have nothing to do with India or Buddhism or Tai chi Chuan as a systemic approach to martial arts.

embraced throughout the East, including China

.... ffs!!! it was created in China... do these clowns have a clue at all?

Again from their site the syllabus these lads practice is in total a made up "mini form" another made up "short form and a "long form" (this is poor even for tai chi boxercise)....
this is a TCC sylabus:

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/wudang_tai_chi.html

Perhaps you mean well? but its not good to send people down rabbit holes wasting their time...

their translation of the first classic is partial and utterly meaningless, no doubt to lend an air of the mystic, but it only displays their complete ignorance of the art, in particular anything relating to the martial. Here is a proper translation with notes:

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/classics_ching.html

contrast with their tripe:

The cosmos is born of the void,
is the source of motion and stilness,
and the mother of yin and yang.
Because of motion there is seperation,
because of stillness there is integration.
Yin is never parted from yang,
and yang never parts from yin.
When yin and yang are in harmony only then is understanding possible.
First we must know yin and yang,
then practice so they mutually benefit and change each other.
Although there are countless variations, there is only one principle.
So wonder and marvel at the two chi divided into yin and yang.
It can transform the world and bring all things into balance.

How do we practice the art of knowing yin and yang ?
First our body is strong and agile,
Our mind is calm and clear,
Our energy and intention are in accord.
Upper and lower follow each other.
Back and front support each other.
Inside and outside reflect each other.
Left and right help each other.
Gathering knowledge with our mind,
And applying to our body,
Gradually we can do what we like.
This is the essence of practice.

all in all, as a person with a little experience in Tai Chi Chuan, these lads are the typical new-age disgrace to the art, mixing pseudoscience / alternative medicine and poorly translated eastern philosophy (making it mambo-jumbo). My advice... avoid!

barrymanilow · 11-06-2016 1:42pm

http://www.chentaichiireland.com/instructors-ireland/

monkeyactive · 13-06-2016 11:12pm

Niall Keane wrote: »

Perhaps you mean well? but it’s not good to send people down rabbit holes wasting their time...

I'm sorry I have to step in here, the guys that Rammanahobbin recommended can be accused of a watered down wishy washy new agey Faddy take on Tai chi but after having a look at the Links that Niall Keane posted I can safely say that they should be well avoided too and maybe even more so.

I browsed the two Facebooks and checked out some of the videos and I just didn't see any evidence of real Tai Chi Skill in there. No understanding of rooting, of body structure, of how to move with the waist, how to use the kua, how to keep pung, of how to coil the body to release power. Just glorified kickboxing and monkey wrestling.

Tai chi is an internal martial art .It’s not using the power of muscle in the arms and legs as you would in conventional external arts and boxing / karate. It’s a completely different way of moving, its counterintuitive and hard to learn. People who have trained hard under someone with real skill for some time can eventually spot who has this skill and who simply doesn’t. A beginner will be clueless as to who has skill and who hasn’t and it can be very hard to know who to train with.

If you’re interested in the martial aspect of tai chi then a good teacher won’t let you near any of the fighting applications until you have up to a decade of training done with thousands upon thousands of repetitions of the hand forms. It literally takes that long to rewire the brain and body for this weird but extremely efficient and mind-blowing skillset. It’s real Mister Miyagi stuff. The Chinese have a saying “Treat ten years as one day “. For this reason I wouldn’t recommend to anyone as a good self-defence quick fix.

If you’re interested in the less martial benefits of Tai chi ( of which there are bucketloads ) or just curious about Tai chi then I’d recommend finding a teacher who is currently themselves training under someone good ( always a good sign ) and who’s first priority is to help you to loosen your body and become familiar with the particular stiffness’s in it .
Also stay clear of places that have tai chi “on the Menu “i.e. martial arts schools that teach loads of stuff and some Tai chi. find someone who has trained for years in one style and teaches that and that only. Tai chi skill just requires too much dedication for someone who does a bit of everything to ever get there.

Heres a good web site , Its an Aussie teacher but it’s a good idea of what to look for . The illustrated skills section is particularly good .

brisbanechentaichi.weebly.com/skill-knowledge.html

Raminahobbin · 14-06-2016 11:21am

monkeyactive wrote: »

I browsed the two Facebooks and checked out some of the videos and I just didn't see any evidence of real Tai Chi Skill in there. No understanding of rooting, of body structure, of how to move with the waist, how to use the kua, how to keep pung, of how to coil the body to release power. Just glorified kickboxing and monkey wrestling.

I wasn't going to come back to this thread because I didn't want to get drawn into a debate, just because I don't like to do that online.

The Tai Chi group I mentioned does *all* of the above and much, much, much more. The website is outdated and ill-informed, which isn't great I agree, but knowing the instructor I would say he had next to no input into the content on the website, by choice. He just doesn't do online. There's another person doing all that who doesn't have the wealth of knowledge he does. He doesn't advertise the classes very often, but always has a healthy dedicated class of people who stay with him for years.

I myself have done 3 years of Tai Chi with him, and have found every single class to be of immense benefit in developing my internal strength. I've done other classes with other instructors, so I know exactly the type of Tai Chi you seem to think this one is, but I promise you it isn't.

If you’re interested in the martial aspect of tai chi then a good teacher won’t let you near any of the fighting applications until you have up to a decade of training done with thousands upon thousands of repetitions of the hand forms. It literally takes that long to rewire the brain and body for this weird but extremely efficient and mind-blowing skillset. It’s real Mister Miyagi stuff. The Chinese have a saying “Treat ten years as one day “. For this reason I wouldn’t recommend to anyone as a good self-defence quick fix.

To be fair, while some of my classes do involve some demos and some martial training, I would be of the same opinion as yourself, that it does take years and years to build the level of skill required to use Tai Chi as a fighting style. The classes I attend focus on this, we know we're working towards it and we know we need to change the way our body and mind think and interact before we can progress to specifically Martial Tai Chi, if you can separate the two. Which doesn't suit impatient people.

I know their online presence leaves a lot to be desired, but the classes themselves are full of substance and they most certainly are not charlatans teaching.

If anyone reading this is in any way curious, try one class or sit in on a Daoist discussion group which is held some Saturday afternoons (their mailing list will let you know when) and you'll get much more info from the man himself.

paul moran · 14-06-2016 12:16pm

monkeyactive wrote: »

If you’re interested in the martial aspect of tai chi then a good teacher won’t let you near any of the fighting applications until you have up to a decade of training done with thousands upon thousands of repetitions of the hand forms. It literally takes that long to rewire the brain and body for this weird but extremely efficient and mind-blowing skillset. It’s real Mister Miyagi stuff. The Chinese have a saying “Treat ten years as one day “.

Monkeyactive

I don't know you or your skillset, but based on your interpretation of how to train a martial art I can make a very good assumption that you have never trained in a practical martial art. Simply stating that you should wait 10 years before you should begin to learn fighting application is pure bs. If you (or anyone) are teaching a martial art and you take 10 years of a fighters prime, 'to rewire a brain and body' then you sir, are a charlatan!

Anyone who steps on the mat, ring, lei tai or cage will learn overtime to become more aware of an opponents force, how to neutralise attacks with less force and more technique, how to relax in a stressed position how to use the internal over the external. But you can only learn this by training the practical applications of the style under pressure. Any other methods do not work!

Perhaps details of your credentials? Link us to your video clips or your students in action.

Niall Keane has Mastered his style and not only competed in full contact events all over the world using his Tai Chi chuan skills and principles but has produced fighters of world class caliber using the same system. He is also the National Irish Sanda Coach! As Niall would say 'for those with eyes to see'? Obviously your eyes cannot see what his video clips detail!

It’s real Mister Miyagi stuff. Seriously?????

monkeyactive · 14-06-2016 2:17pm

paul moran wrote: »

It’s real Mister Miyagi stuff. Seriously?????

Just my sense of Humor .

Look don't worry about me or my C.V and I'm not in the habit of uploading video clips of myself onto the net . If It were Chen Zhenglei himself at this keyboard or a New age Chi hippy it would make no difference to the truth in what I have said above .

I'm sure your all great fighters . I'm sure that people get great enjoyment and benefit from your club but I still can't see any of the principles of Tai Chi in the movements . Its a completely different way of moving and its a painful truth that it takes years of hard training under a skilled teacher to ever get to the point where the body is loose enough to move properly and produce the distinct type of power that lets it be called Tai Chi .

Muhammed Ali and Conor Mcgregor are great fighters . They have no Tai chi skill . If they beat someone with Tai Chi Skill they still wouldnt have tai chi skill . Winning Kickboxing tournaments doesn't mean Tai chi skill . Moving , understanding and producing power with the principles of Tai chi means Tai chi skill .

You don't have to take my word for it . You can continue to do what you do if it makes you happy . Makes no odds to me .

Niall Keane · 14-06-2016 4:53pm

monkeyactive wrote: »

J
Look don't worry about me or my C.V

when one contradicts expert opinion on subject matter, indeed your credentials are essential!

Its a completely different way of moving and its a painful truth that it takes years of hard training under a skilled teacher

How's 20 years under Dan Docherty? Chairman of British Tai Chi Union, and Tai Chi and Chi Gung Federation for Europe, SE Asian open weight champ in 1980, top disciple of Cheng Tin Hung (the "Tai Chi Bodyguard" - most successful Tai Chi fighter and coach in the world 1950's-80's) himself founder of Honk Kong Tai Chi Association.

I have a genuine lineage of top fighters passing the art down to top fighters, i.e since Yang Lu Chan was named "the invincible" and "tai chi chuan" was the name given to HIS art by a court poet at the imperial palace, in otherwords, he made the respected name for the martial art of tai chi chuan, and as we all know noone trains harder nor gains more insight than the best fighters of any generation, so it stands to reason that perhaps I do indeed know the meaning of the list of "public" terms (I notice how you omitted any inside-the-door terms, I suspect you know none) and can apply, embody and demonstrate such, and even train others to do so.... (clue: they don't look like decorative forms!) :

http://sanshou.webs.com/lineage.htm

(perhaps educate yourself on the names contained within... and consider the inside the door gung fu concept of "zhen chuan" (true transmission) ?)

Then consider that I am the sole "master" in this country in any lineage, i.e. authorized by a genuine and universally acknowledged lineage holder to have students baishi under me....

let's use the metaphor of western boxing....

you are a boxercise boy, who has never encountered any real boxing, and you have just announced that someone who was a world ranked boxer and a has since trained many others has no evidence of skill..

this is called the Dunning-Kruger effect... you lack the tools to understand that you cannot understand, and mistakenly consider your opinion expert, or at least on par with those considered in the field to be expert.

As for what gung fu should look like applied.... have you been in a coma or something since the 90'S? Did you miss out on that whole MMA revolution?

No understanding of rooting, of body structure, of how to move with the waist, how to use the kua, how to keep pung, of how to coil the body to release power.

seeing as you are criticizing my good self, I feel it well within my rights to demand you point to video evidence of what you consider such skills should appear as in a fully resistant setting, NOT a COMPLIANT DEMO!!!

I also would love to hear your explanation of the terms? from a practical perspective, sans esoteric nonsense, and I don't mean the common understanding... I mean the orthodox Tai Chi Chuan jargon...

like it's fairly obvious that any half-decent martial artist can and do use their waist.. so that's a nonsense. Explain for me the nei jia concept of correct body structure? Or tell me the key concepts?

the Kua is simply the hips-groin area, so again tell me the mysteries of utilising such? and how it transforms fighting?

peng (what you spell as pung) tell me about it? And don't quote me Yang Cheng-fu's lines. And tell me how can it be ever-present if we are to utilise shen-fa like cai lang?

coil the body to release power

? ... I think your probably refer to gathering the wave, as the TCC fundamental method is to "use the dao of the opponent and return it to him" , but if we take coiling it is everywhere, and not special, from punching to chin na... with the same expression of movement allowing for multifarious application and ease of folding when going to and fro. It is not the method of generating power but merely a way to deliver it or receive it... it is also not a classic tai chi term.. liao, to issue force in more than one direction which contains the idea of spiraling certainly is. (But I guess alot of the boxercise crew have gotten fixated on Peng - just one of the 13 tactics.)

It is a common expression that without gung (implying a gung training regime) one can practice for a lifetime and still remain a cripple.

Tell me what gung methods do you practice to make your art "internal"? and what then is the difference between Nei Gung (found in all internal arts) and Chi Gung? and Jibigung?

your art should have jibigung? what is it/ and how does it relate to conditioning the body?

Likewise how does your nei gung system programme the body method and tactics?

DO you practice applications in tuishou (push-hands) drills? Afterall it is the TCC way of programming the tactics and strategy and developing timing, angle and range skills, (many specific to TCC applications) in conjunction with sanshou (sparring). I am of course assuming you have 12 methods of Tuishou as per classical TCC, and that some are fixed step and others moving , some a restricted drill, others free wrestling? because leaving this out would be like leaving the water out of swimming.

I take it that you practice all the 40 plus classical applications? left and right, inside and outside, alone and in combos? as is traditional?

see... there are 5 pillars to traditional TCC, this is well documented, like all of the above, and not "wudang" specific, it has been written about in Yang, Wu, Woo, Sun styles, some in Chen... anyway those five pillars are:
1. (most important) Nei Gung
2. Hand form
3. Tuishou (push hands drills)
4. Sanshou ( the applications and sparring)
5. Ancillary Excercises: ( this includes weapons and their associated drills, other gung excercises like hand stands on fists, rolls, punching with weights, punching bags, flexibility training etc...)

Most of the famous grand masters have commented that leaving out an area results in an incomplete and incompetent martial artist. this is common knowledge.

Finally here's some footage from the 1950's where my Si-Gung Cheng Tin-Hung is training (with) his students, allowing them to use TCC techniques on him... IT should be noted that Cheng Tin-Hung is considered one of the greatest masters of TCC in the 20th century. Eddie Wu the current Gate-Keeper of the Wu Style publicly stated that when his uncle was in the Chinese Gulags, Cheng Tin-Hung was at that time gate-keeper of Wu Style. SO we are talking high level TCC here, acknowledged by one of the main Tai Chi families. One should also bear in mind, that there was no love lost between the Wu's and CTH, as he had defeated Wu Kung-yi years earlier in a wrestling match, as he sought a new coach when his master had returned to a war-torn China... on throwing him to the ground for the third time with the same technique Cheng Tin-Hung stated: "Your Kung Fu is ****! all in the mouth and not in the hands!"

https://youtu.be/ajo65UxCa7Y

Niall Keane · 14-06-2016 8:02pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajo65UxCa7Y

Niall Keane · 14-06-2016 8:27pm

Raminahobbin wrote: »

.....I would be of the same opinion as yourself, that it does take years and years to build the level of skill required to use Tai Chi as a fighting style. The classes I attend focus on this, we know we're working towards it and we know we need to change the way our body and mind think and interact before we can progress to specifically Martial Tai Chi, if you can separate the two. Which doesn't suit impatient people.
....

this is just sad really... utterly uninformed, totally conned!

here's the latest Chen Village offering of their art in use:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U8fGNhfZ7I

here's one of my students:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcfjZrKOk84

here's my sifu:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DL4kaox2ZY

and his Sifu after winning a Taiwan /Hong Kong / Malaysia set of tournaments back in 1957 :
[IMG][/img]

now... given that the Chen's the family who taught Yang Lu Chan, are singing off the same hymsheet nowadays as Practical / Wudang always have... who do you think might have the experience in this matter? Myself or by your own admittance a person with 3 years training? at what? 1-2 classes a week???

I've no problem with people practicing tai chi or boxercise for health ... more power to them! But I do take issue when the ill-informed and inexperienced attempt to disparage my ability and my students in order to sell the snake-oil they were foolish enough to swallow.

Niall Keane · 14-06-2016 8:41pm

and just for the craic, and to set the cat among the pigeons, in the 1970's the Shaw Brothers made a film called "the shadow boxer" (shadow boxing being another name for Tai Chi Chuan) they hired Cheng Tin-Hung to give an intro demonstration ...

Now I know this is how you imagine TCC is executed in real life... and this clip does contain TCC techniques in an obvious manner... see... that's due to the "theatrics" involved in the film art, similar to the "theatrics" involved in Chinese Opera, another artistic area associated with Chinese Martial arts... Now... has the penny dropped yet???
you see now what happened? don't you?

the folk idea of what Gung Fu is has taken hold of peoples minds.. they confused theatrics for reality... and now, saddly, believe the theatrics are the real...

真假, 假真 Zhen jia, jia zhen (What's real has become fake, now what's fake has become real.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ7GOxU6bbE

Niall Keane · 14-06-2016 11:04pm

“The people should be very ashamed”
16 Aug

(Chinese martial arts) … are in a chaotic state, thus the people cannot know what course to take. Summed up, they have abandoned the quintessence and kept only the scum, nothing more. Although the martial arts of Japan and the boxing of Western Europe are one-sided, they all have their original points. In comparison to an ordinary boxer of our nation, they are countless miles ahead. The people should be very ashamed of this.

Criticism of Chinese martial arts is nothing new. I’d actually say it has become even more prevalent in recent years. Usually, the most common response to these criticisms is to state that the critic has never seen “real” Chinese martial arts. If the critic were to meet a “real master” and experience their skills, they’d realize just how wrong they are! However, the above quote comes from none other than Wang Xiangzhai (王薌齋)

yiquan

Wang Xiangzhai (王薌齋) was a Chinese xingyiquan master, responsible for founding the martial art of Yiquan. He he went all around China, studying martial arts with many famous masters including monk Heng Lin, Xinyiquan master Xie Tiefu, southern white crane style masters Fang Yizhuang and Jin Shaofeng, Liuhebafa master Wu Yi Hui, etc. He was also quite famous as a fighter and actually claimed “I have traveled across the country in research, engaging over a thousand people in martial combat, there have been only 2 people I could not defeat”.

According to our research during the past few years, many techniques in the traditional systems are not practical. It is important not to be preoccupied with arguments of traditional versus modern techniques. It is also not a good idea to ‘protect’ traditional systems by tailoring the rules to exclude, for example, foreign styles.

Another “ignorant critic”? Another “mixed martial arts muscle head” perhaps? This quote is from Professor Xia Bai-hua, who was president of the Chinese Wushu Association at the time. Professor Xia was also head of the Technical Institute in Beijing, and was sanshou chief referee at the 1993 Second world Wushu Championship in Malaysia.

1937-guoshu-chainpunches

In recent years, the central government has begun to promote traditional martial arts, and every province has established martial arts training halls. Besides Chinese wrestling, the most popular arts are the Shaolin and Wudang styles of kung fu, both of which have methods of solo practice. Yet the practical applications of these arts is a subject that is never breached. Those who have practiced these arts twenty or thirty years have never defeated anyone who has practiced Western boxing or judo. Why is this? It is because the practitioners of Shaolin and Wudang styles only pay attention to the beauty of their forms — they lack practical methods and spirit and have lost the true transmissions of their ancestors.

By now, I suspect you realize that these quotes are NOT from those who are “ignorant” or lack exposure to real Chinese martial arts. This third quote is from Liu Jinsheng, the author of the 1935 “Chin Na Fa” manual. If you have been very observant, you might also have noticed that all three quotes compared Chinese martial arts to “foreign methods” such as Japanese Judo and western boxing. Despite the fact these foreign methods are supposed to be “primitive”, less effective and beneath the “developed” Chinese martial arts, these concerns seemed rather important to these three men. Were these three masters less informed than the “internet expert” such as the one below?

ctstupid

I suppose for some, ignorance is bliss. Much better to isolate yourself from the rest of the world and pretend that doing your method makes you “special” and better than the whole rest of the world. Certainly, you wouldn’t want to know that Wang Xiangzhai said;

Combat science cannot be divided into schools, and the boxing theory does not have the distinction of Chinese or foreign, and new or old.

But mostly, I confess, I just put that up that facebook quote just for fun. Returning to Liu Jinsheng’s quote, note how he criticizes the misapplication forms and the absence of other practical training methods. In a recent blog, “practical approaches to Chinese martial arts training” I outlined the traditional training curriculum for Chinese martial arts and noted that forms training is only a part, perhaps even a small part, of a proper training program. But compared to Wang Xiangzhai, I almost feel as if I am an apologist;

Studying boxing routines, forms of movements, fixed techniques, and training hits and beats, all fall into the category of superficial, and although the boxing routines and forms of movements have been popular already for a long time, they are, indeed, extremely harmful to the people…. At large, the numerous schools of our society, generally take the approach of forms and techniques to learn boxing. One must know that this kind practice is just forgery conducted by the later generations, it is not the original essence of combat science.

Shihfu Wang didn’t feel the need to mince his words apparently. Perhaps this was because anyone who has spent time in the Chinese martial arts community becomes aware of the dangers of believing in secrets, training only in forms and avoiding the hard work (sweat, and blood) of application drills and training. Perhaps because something (I am not sure what) makes Chinese martial arts prone to these deficiencies, more so than the “foreign methods”. In 1928, Zhao Daoxin was only 20 years old and at the beginning of his martial arts career, yet managed to achieve 13th place in the Lei Tai tournament. Zhao was a disciple of Zhang Zhaodong, and would become famous in Tianjin’s martial arts community. Of the Lei Tai tournament, Zhao noted;

“Those ‘orthodox inheritors’ of traditional martial arts, regardless of whether they were lofty monks or local grandmasters, were either knocked out or scared out of the competition”

lama

Liu Jinsheng establishes in his comments just how pervasive and long standing these issues were in teh Chinese martial arts community;

In the Ming dynasty, men such as Qi Jiguang and Yu Dayou advocated this type of realistic practice and opposed any empty practice done for the sake of appearance. This is why these men have proud reputations in history.

General Qi Jiguang (1528-1587) was the author of two books, “New Book of Effective Discipline” (1561) and “Actual Record of Training” (1571). While the modern martial arts student probably has never heard of General Qi or either of these books, they are pretty important because they reveal that even well before Qi’s time, the martial arts practiced in the villages as part of militia training had gradually evolved into a form of recreation as well, and had become characterized by the “flowery” movements.

殺人的勾當，豈是好看的?” “除此複有所謂單舞者，皆是花法，不可學也””凡比較武藝，務要俱照示學習實敵本事，直可對搏打者，不許仍學習花槍等法，徒支虛架，以圖人前美觀”

“practical is not pretty, pretty is not practical”

Clearly, there are tendencies within Chinese martial arts that lead to inordinate concentration on forms practice and the loss of practical training. Clearly, those who warn against this are not “ignorant” nor failed to have seen the “real stuff”. Quite the contrary, some of the most esteemed men in the Wu Lin saw the dangers. Now ponder that for a bit:)

written by David Ross
link: https://nysanda.wordpress.com/2015/08/16/the-people-should-be-very-ashamed/

David Ross has produced Sanda, MMA and Boxing Golden gloves champions, he is a disciple of the late Chan Tai-San

he writes quite interesting and very well informed blog on Chinese Martial Arts, and deals extensively in the martial histories and debunking the fabrications. Again, a lad from a fighting lineage....

Its amazing, isn't it? how all the fighters have a fairly uniform opinion on whats practical and how to achieve results......

Niall Keane · 14-06-2016 11:12pm

monkeyactive wrote: »

.....

I'm sure your all great fighters ......

Paul is the head coach of Yang's Martial Arts Association Ireland.... he has boxed, and produced Sanda Champs.... even EWUF-IWUF European medalists!!!

His Sifu, the "Yang" refereed to in his association's name is Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming...
I assume as a student of Chinese Martial Arts you would have heard of him?

http://ymaa.com/publishing/authors/dr.yang_jwing-ming

My understanding is that Paul practices White Crane and Tai Chi Chuan from a lineage decended from Yang Lu Chan's second son, and heir to the namesake- "the invincible": Yang Banhou... and Banhou got his title from.... guess what? .... fighting!

as for the kick-boxing remark... I'm sure you consider the likes of Saenchai and Baukaw "low level"? crass externalists.... but seriously... you do realise that TCC has kicks and punches? you know... "parry and punch", "upsidedown fist", "punch the groin", "plant punch", "fist under elbow", "swing the fist", "box the ears", "embrace twin fists" etc... and these are only the explicit punching techniques named in the form, we won't bother going inside the door about "five element fist", "rolling thunder punching", nor bother to mention the punching techniques like "gyrating arms" and "embrace tiger's head", or "pi jow" etc... and as for kicks? what kicks? Oh... "seperate feet / kick out in a curve", "turn body and kick with the heel", "drape body and kick / two raisings of the foot", nor the kicks inherent in techniques like "white snake spits out its tongue"... no lets ignore all that... and pretend Tai Chi Chuan doesn't have kicks and punches and is therefore unsuitable for "kick-boxing" competitions? And especially sanda... as surely none of the other 48 classical tai chi sanshou applications involve wrestling... its not like the 4 aspects of Tai Chi Chuan are "die-pu" (to STRIKE and knock down, or to knock down and strike), "shuai-jiao" (wrestling), "Chin Na" (seize-hold - locks and chokes) and Dim Mak (boring a hole - use of pressure points) ... no ... its all about using the "feeling" of "peng" to float the opponents attacks away and dance under a pale moon in a bamboo forest....ffs!!!

o.k. I think I've imparted enough of an education on the subject....

as usual...

"for those with eyes to see!"

Niall Keane · 15-06-2016 10:34am

one final question:

Modern science tells us that repeating a movement allows us to gain fluency with such movements.
a Neurologist will speak of myelination of nerves, and movement engrams.
We all have experience of learning how to write or any other complex task... playing a musical instrument etc.
basically (employing much dumbed-down simplicity) first an engram must develop in the motor cortex - how to arc a punch from guard so it simultaneously parries an oncoming punch say (fairly simple, lets not go to complex throws or anything for these purposes) We know that if we repeat the act thousands of times we will build that engram. (consider car drivers, and how at first the coordination is extremely difficult and their actions "jerky" until it becomes "natural" / "conditioned")
Now at the same time, the motor nerves employed form a layer of myelin around them... this has the effect of increasing the "data bus size" to use a metaphor, and speeds up response time, making the action practical for our needs.
There's a whole load of other stuff like "strength types", and feedback loops, but lets leave such complexity for a moment, as they all require "conditioning", training...

Now... Tai Chi Chuan has gung methods..
so for example in Tai Chi 100 day Nei gung martially relevant postures / alignments or movements are practiced a basic level by holding postures up to 2 minutes, or repeating movements 41 to 111 times. This is carried out mostly in horse riding posture and so the simple exercise involves 1000's of squats. (these movements are carried out at "fighting pace") ( at fighter level 1 minute becomes 3, 41 times becomes 111 and 111 becomes 360, at master level 1 minute becomes 10, 41 becomes 360 and 111 becomes 1000) (this set consistes of 24 exercises, 12 yin and 12 yang, practiced daily, not just 100 days, the name comes from the noticeable effects after such time)

Now... I'm drifting into "function-relevant" or in coaching what is known as "sport-relevant" movement... it has been demonstrated through countless research, that the cross-over benefit of practicing "irrelevant" movements or activities is marginal at best if not in most cases non-existent. (this also should bring to your attention the question of the martial relevance of practicing a form (a stylized set of movements) at a slow pace? hint: the wrong type of muscle fibres are being trained!) (now consider all the classic references to "fast forms" or "Masters" taking only a few minutes to complete a long form..... it takes me about 4-5 minutes for a 119 movement long form... not racing, but not crawling either. Of course it takes a while to be able to do this and hold proper alignments and postures.
See... form should be the least important aspect of a Tai Chi Fighter's practice... used in "off-time" to heal and massage the body from the rigors of real practice and conditioning.

If all you have is form ... well... that's a problem for sure!

Now as to the question...

How many long forms can be practiced in a single class? Typically long form when taught takes 15 - 20 minutes to run through...
Lets take the typical (these days in tai chi boxercise) class of 1hour and 30 minutes.... subtract the warm-up and the cool-down periods... so say, even if there is no tui shou practice, say 1 hour of practice, so 4 repetitions...

Now lets take "Single Whip" one of the most commonly recurring styles / movements in most forms. It usually is performed 13 times in total.

13 x 4 = 52

If you go twice a week = 104 times

Now to give you an example of the difference when it comes to Tai Chi BOXING....

a standard excercise is "rolling thunder punching" with 2kg weights in each hand for 20 minutes, with a minimum basic level of 150 punches a minute and 180 for fighters....
so lets take the fighter:
180 x 20 = 3,600 times..... a day!!!

Say 6 days a week training:

SO 21,600 repetitions a week!!!

SO boxercise boy does 104 repetitions a week of a movement and the boxer does 21,600 (there's even less instances of "parry and punch" in the form than "single Whip", but we won't go there)

in other words boxercise lad does 0.5% of the training a week the fighter does... AND... he trains the wrong muscle fibres... the "slow-twitch" ones!!!

Now that's just simply the science....

SO can you really consider that practicing form as you do, a few times a week is a path to martial ability at all???

Can you really believe that one can recondition the bodies movement and responses with a tai chi boxercise form regime?

What if we were taking about any other sport? say tennis, by swinging the racket (without hitting a ball) 104 times a week, can one realistically become competent? Now maybe someone will sell you a cert or hand you a belt for doing that, but really? really? will it imply competence? Is Wimbledon on the horizon?

I tell you what... head over to the boxing forum on boards.ie, and ask them if one can become a good boxer by jabbing the air 104 times a week?

Has the delusion been shattered yet?

Niall Keane · 15-06-2016 10:55am

a demonstration of the results of Tai Chi 100 Day Nei gung by my good friend and tai chi brother Michael Andersen...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W7zqk7oduI

and an article written by Cheng Tin-Hung on the reasons behind such training:

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/articles/197xv1n4_1.html

smacl · 17-06-2016 3:57pm

Niall Keane wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Practical-Tai-Chi-Chuan-Ireland/157357437930539

Garry Hodgins runs this, south Dublin area, not sure exactly where. Message him and Im sure he'll get back to you. (was my old sparring partner, so I can safely vouch that he has the goods and can teach TCC as a martial art)

Paul Moran:
https://www.facebook.com/paul.kungfu?fref=nf

teaches TCC from a Yang Ban-hao lineage. Again, this guy has fought and trained successful fighters, so knows the business.

I'm not aware of any other teachers of tai chi chuan (boxing) as opposed to tai chi boxercise in the area.

There are other people around the area; Paul Mitchel (European and World Champ in Shaui Jiao and Sanda), Clare Sheehy (European Champ at Tui shou) and Shane McLoughlin also a European champ at tui shou (no jacket chinese wrestling) , dont think they teach though.

Just to second this, Garry is an excellent martial arts teacher, scholar and true gent who's put many decades into perfecting his martial arts as well as study of Chinese culture. Well worth a visit if he's in travelling distance, though last time I met him he was training in the Blackrock area.

Paul Moran also has decades of teaching Chinese martial arts, and the chief instructor of the international school he is part of, Yang Jwing Ming, is probably one of the most published and respected Chinese martial artists on the planet. Also Blackrock area AFAIK.

If you can get to either of the above, I'd go for it. Failing that try all the classes in range and see what floats your boat. There used to be a group practising on Sundays up in Marlay Park, nice guys but more about health than martial arts. Let us know how you get on.

Niall Keane · 21-06-2016 12:07am

smacl wrote: »

Just to second this, Garry is an excellent martial arts teacher, scholar and true gent who's put many decades into perfecting his martial arts as well as study of Chinese culture. Well worth a visit if he's in travelling distance, though last time I met him he was training in the Blackrock area.

Paul Moran also has decades of teaching Chinese martial arts, and the chief instructor of the international school he is part of, Yang Jwing Ming, is probably one of the most published and respected Chinese martial artists on the planet. Also Blackrock area AFAIK.

If you can get to either of the above, I'd go for it. Failing that try all the classes in range and see what floats your boat. There used to be a group practising on Sundays up in Marlay Park, nice guys but more about health than martial arts. Let us know how you get on.

hahaha ... jaysus... aren't ya so diplomatic? hahahahahaha!

can I interest you in international liaison position? ;-)

Tai Chi - South Dublin

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