Brexit should we leave too??

LeinsterDub

323 wrote: »

Polls starting to reflect what i have been hearing from being over an back there all year.

Interesting timing with Switzerland withdrawing its application to join the EU, albeit 24 years after the referendum where their citizens rejected the idea of closer ties with the EU.

Political theatre nothing more the equivalent of me officially withdrawing my application to the primary school I didn't attend.

Moo Moo Land

I see Remain odds at 4/7 now. Slightly better.
Absolute certainty in my opinion. Get your mortgage on it.

There was an excellent debate on Late Debate last night with Cormac O hEadhra.

Jerry Buttimer told Brid Smith that, as a woman, she might not even be in office, were it not for the EU (he also, bizarrely, mentioned David Norris's case, although nobody picked him up on it)

Brid Smith responded wonderfully, I thought, saying that with the exception of equal pay (which still hasn't been achieved), it wasn't the EU that established women's rights, but the Women's Lib movement and feminist organisations in Ireland who had demanded and achieved their rights.

There is a spectacular ignus fatuus in Irish political discourse, where even those who ought to be well-educated, such as Jerry Buttimer, genuinely believe the EU has been a great interventionist force in improvements in Irish social equality.

Such ignorance is perhaps a stain of failure on the Irish educational system, second only, I opine, to the near-abandonment of the first language.

Anybody who believes the EU is a movement for social justice ought to be put in the stocks, and forced to listen to the European Treaties on loudspeaker.

CMOTDibbler

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

There was an excellent debate on Late Debate last night with Cormac O hEadhra.

Jerry Buttimer told Brid Smith that, as a woman, she might not even be in office, were it not for the EU (he also, bizarrely, mentioned David Norris's case, although nobody picked him up on it)

Brid Smith responded wonderfully, I thought, saying that with the exception of equal pay (which still hasn't been achieved), it wasn't the EU that established women's rights, but the Women's Lib movement and feminist organisations in Ireland who had demanded and achieved their rights.

There is a spectacular ignus fatuus in Irish political discourse, where even those who ought to be well-educated, such as Jerry Buttimer, genuinely believe the EU has been a great interventionist force in improvements in Irish social equality.

Such ignorance is perhaps a stain of failure on the Irish educational system, second only, I opine, to the near-abandonment of the first language.

Anybody who believes the EU is a movement for social justice ought to be put in the stocks, and forced to listen to the European Treaties on loudspeaker.

Not arguing one way or another with your point, but... Jerry Buttimer?!? :eek:

Mec27

Do you ever think we will be able to look at the EU as something other than what can be gained economically from it? Will there ever be a time where its not the EU that we see as the problem but rather the people in power, just like we do with our national governments.

Mec27

Mec27 wrote: »

Do you ever think we will be able to look at the EU as something other than what can be gained economically from it? Will there ever be a time where its not the EU that we see as the problem but rather the people in power, just like we do with our national governments.

The EU is not comparable to a typical European state, at present.

Once you strip away EU rules, any sovereign government can generally do as they wish (parliamentary sovereignty: UK, Italy, Finland, etc) or any sovereign people can do as they wish (popular sovereignty: Ireland, France).

But unlike free-thinking sovereign states, the EU is not a holistic body which aims to reflect all of the values of its community. In economic terms, it is built on very specific economic foundations of liberalising trade and pre-eminence of the market economy.

In fairness, the EU has made progress in the spheres of environmental, social and human rights, with varying degrees of enthusiasm & success. But its predominent and overarching theme is an 'economically liberal' worldview, which is explicitly expressed in its founding documents, moreso than any state in human history.

TL,DR: The EU is in more comparable to an organisation with a specific focus, rather than a government with a flexible agenda, and therefore, criticism of the EU per se is legitimate in a way that it would not be legitimate to critcise Norway, or Switzerland per se, but rather their respective governments.

Dai John

A lot of member states are awaiting 23 June result to see which way the ball will hop. Without UK money the burden will be heavier on the remaining states. With regard to trade, all UK have to do is have no barrier with any country that does the same. If faced with unemployment all UK have to do is refuse work permits or deport until they reach the optimum figure. I understand that the Peugeot plant was moved from Coventry to Slovakia and given an EU grant. Ford Transit production was moved to Turkey with an EU grant.The coal and steel industries were decimated in UK in favour of other countries with inferior products etc.etc. Is it any wonder Brits are unhappy especially when "No go areas"with Sharia Law have sprung up . Even the might of Nazi Germany could not move that many bodies across the Channel. The Eu was well intentioned originally and worked but has become a bureaucratic nightmare providing jobs for the boys creating empires. In the event of a Brexit vote the EU could collapse country by country. Youth unemployment is so high in Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy there has and will be more unrest. Youth unemployment was only kept down in Ireland by one hell of an exodus.There is no free movement in the EU, ask any truck driver, and the worse and most expensive country is Germany.

Pro Hoc Vice

Dai John wrote: »

A lot of member states are awaiting 23 June result to see which way the ball will hop. Without UK money the burden will be heavier on the remaining states. With regard to trade, all UK have to do is have no barrier with any country that does the same. If faced with unemployment all UK have to do is refuse work permits or deport until they reach the optimum figure. I understand that the Peugeot plant was moved from Coventry to Slovakia and given an EU grant. Ford Transit production was moved to Turkey with an EU grant.The coal and steel industries were decimated in UK in favour of other countries with inferior products etc.etc. Is it any wonder Brits are unhappy especially when "No go areas"with Sharia Law have sprung up . Even the might of Nazi Germany could not move that many bodies across the Channel. The Eu was well intentioned originally and worked but has become a bureaucratic nightmare providing jobs for the boys creating empires. In the event of a Brexit vote the EU could collapse country by country. Youth unemployment is so high in Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy there has and will be more unrest. Youth unemployment was only kept down in Ireland by one hell of an exodus.There is no free movement in the EU, ask any truck driver, and the worse and most expensive country is Germany.

EU grant to move transit production to Turkey. Are you sure can you provide a link.

Why would any truck driver tell me there is no free movement in the EU?

I have been all over the UK and am unaware of any no go areas due to Shira law, can you tell me where I as a non Muslim am not allowed to go?

Godge

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

There was an excellent debate on Late Debate last night with Cormac O hEadhra.

Jerry Buttimer told Brid Smith that, as a woman, she might not even be in office, were it not for the EU (he also, bizarrely, mentioned David Norris's case, although nobody picked him up on it)

Brid Smith responded wonderfully, I thought, saying that with the exception of equal pay (which still hasn't been achieved), it wasn't the EU that established women's rights, but the Women's Lib movement and feminist organisations in Ireland who had demanded and achieved their rights.

There is a spectacular ignus fatuus in Irish political discourse, where even those who ought to be well-educated, such as Jerry Buttimer, genuinely believe the EU has been a great interventionist force in improvements in Irish social equality.

Such ignorance is perhaps a stain of failure on the Irish educational system, second only, I opine, to the near-abandonment of the first language.

Anybody who believes the EU is a movement for social justice ought to be put in the stocks, and forced to listen to the European Treaties on loudspeaker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Treatment_Directive_of_1976

(which led to the Equality Act of 1977)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_labour_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_directives

You are right, education is needed, and you would be surprised what someone might learn.

Godge

seamus wrote: »

Yawn.

Cameron has already said that he will proceed immediately with negotiations to leave the EU if the Leave vote wins.

The obvious concern that both sides of the debate had were that people would vote "Leave", thinking that Cameron would go to the EU to come with a last-minute sweet deal if they stayed, or even go back for a deal with the threat of leaving, but with no intention of carrying it through.

Most likely what he will do (and should do) if the Leave campaign succeeds is to begin the exit process, and then step down and call a general election to let the brexiters deal with the absolute sh1t they've put the country in.

Leave campaign wins, sterling collapses, UK economy stalls, unemployment rises, Cameron is told by EU here is a crap deal on leaving, second referendum votes overwhelmingly to stay.

Or Remain wins, which I think is more likely, and all that is moot.

Inquitus

Why would we want to leave? Our economy is completely dependent on being an EU member, we are an English speaking staging post for the rest of the world to have its foothold in the EU Single Market, and a bit of a tax haven to boot. On our own we are rock with few resources stuck in the Atlantic between the US and the UK, off the north coast of the European mainland, with nothing much to offer.

Mec27

Inquitus wrote: »

Why would we want to leave? Our economy is completely dependent on being an EU member, we are an English speaking staging post for the rest of the world to have its foothold in the EU Single Market, and a bit of a tax haven to boot. On our own we are rock with few resources stuck in the Atlantic between the US and the UK, off the north coast of the European mainland, with nothing much to offer.

I agree we are too interwined to leave, but that last bit I disagree with, physical location matters little in the modern economy imo. We are not that isolated, fundamentally I wouldn't want us to leave because I am a European and anything that brings Europe closer and closer is something I am in favour of.

Atlantic Dawn

Inquitus wrote: »

On our own we are rock with few resources stuck in the Atlantic between the US and the UK, off the north coast of the European mainland, with nothing much to offer.

We do have the richest fishing waters in the EU, that's a very big bargaining chip, if we leave we get a 200 mile exclusion zone where no EU boats can fish, the Dutch, Spanish and French would not be happy.

Inquitus

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

We do have the richest fishing waters in the EU, that's a very big bargaining chip, if we leave we get a 200 mile exclusion zone where no EU boats can fish, the Dutch, Spanish and French would not be happy.

Agreed, but the gains in fishing would never outweigh the substantial losses in all other areas of the economy.

Atlantic Dawn

Inquitus wrote: »

Agreed, but the gains in fishing would never outweigh the substantial losses in all other areas of the economy.

Yes I would think a 5 fold increase would be the maximum, currently it's €700 million a year, so €2.8 billion would be the gain. I'd say farming would collapse as it wouldn't sustain itself without EU grants.

Godge

Godge wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Treatment_Directive_of_1976

(which led to the Equality Act of 1977)

Read better.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

with the exception of equal pay (which still hasn't been achieved), it wasn't the EU that established women's rights, but the Women's Lib movement and feminist organisations in Ireland who had demanded and achieved their rights.

FreudianSlippers

walshb wrote: »

Cameron shouldn't be panicking. He can always refuse to accept the vote if it's to leave and keep sending them back to the vote, ala Ireland for Lisbon and Nice.

Ireland didn't vote on the same referendum or treaty wording in both examples; it would be almost impossible to re-run a stay/leave referendum of any sort, unless the question was whether some sort of reform (and it's clear from this thread that people are totally ignorant of the operation and function of the EU and/or what reform is necessary) would be conditional on remaining in the EU.

FreudianSlippers

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Mec27 wrote: »

Do you ever think we will be able to look at the EU as something other than what can be gained economically from it? Will there ever be a time where its not the EU that we see as the problem but rather the people in power, just like we do with our national governments.

The EU is not comparable to a typical European state, at present.

Once you strip away EU rules, any sovereign government can generally do as they wish (parliamentary sovereignty: UK, Italy, Finland, etc) or any sovereign people can do as they wish (popular sovereignty: Ireland, France).

But unlike free-thinking sovereign states, the EU is not a holistic body which aims to reflect all of the values of its community. In economic terms, it is built on very specific economic foundations of liberalising trade and pre-eminence of the market economy.

In fairness, the EU has made progress in the spheres of environmental, social and human rights, with varying degrees of enthusiasm & success. But its predominent and overarching theme is an 'economically liberal' worldview, which is explicitly expressed in its founding documents, moreso than any state in human history.

TL,DR: The EU is in more comparable to an organisation with a specific focus, rather than a government with a flexible agenda, and therefore, criticism of the EU per se is legitimate in a way that it would not be legitimate to critcise Norway, or Switzerland per se, but rather their respective governments.

I typically get concerned when people start rabbiting on about "sovereignty" and fail to make a coherent point about same. There are very few directly effective EU rules which have an impact on the day-to-day decision making of individual governments and/or EU citizens.

The fact that we consistently have referenda on Treaty changes and/or Directive implementation should be one of many hefty blocks in the way of a "lack of sovereignty" argument against the EU.

seamus

Inquitus wrote: »

Agreed, but the gains in fishing would never outweigh the substantial losses in all other areas of the economy.

Indeed, we have none of the manpower or infrastructure to exploit the waters to the extent that would make us a fishing powerhouse.

And you'd be looking at 2 or 3 decades before we could ramp up to that level.

The EU would know this in any negotiation - that we're not really going to take our ball and go home.

FreudianSlippers

Inquitus wrote: »

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

We do have the richest fishing waters in the EU, that's a very big bargaining chip, if we leave we get a 200 mile exclusion zone where no EU boats can fish, the Dutch, Spanish and French would not be happy.

Agreed, but the gains in fishing would never outweigh the substantial losses in all other areas of the economy.

Yeah, let's get Google and Facebook (etc.) out of here and just focus really hard on the whole fish thing. Sure, let's also drop the Euro and move onto a fish-based currency!

I'm being glib of course, but the whole fishing waters thing is a total red herring (pun intended).

Phoebas

The problem with the fishing industry is that (apart from it being tiny) we rely on the EU as market for our fish.
That might be problematic when we have to pay fish tariffs.

Key Export Markets 2014|Volume |€ Million
France |30,112 tonnes |€117 million
Great Britain |31,911 tonnes| €65 million
Spain |13,059 tonnes |€57 million
Germany |6,958 tonnes |€19 million
Italy |3,160 tonnes |€26 million
Nigeria |56,377 tonnes |€53 million
China (incl Hong Kong)| 11,219 tonnes |€25 million
Russia |10,797 tonnes |€19 million

FreudianSlippers

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I typically get concerned when people start rabbiting on about "sovereignty" and fail to make a coherent point about same. There are very few directly effective EU rules which have an impact on the day-to-day decision making of individual governments and/or EU citizens.

Bizarre tangent. I mentioned the word sovereignty only in passing, and specifically, in relation to the precedence of EU economic law, which favours privatisation and liberalisation, and constrains the interventionist capacity of national governments, both in the market and the fiscal rules (MTOs).

I'm not complaining about lack of sovereignty, per se, nor am I even saying anything about the undemocratic nature of this situation, which is often exaggerated.

My point is: the EU has a fundamental, long-term ideological bent which does not change as one might expect in non-EU states, as and when governments change.

It is akin to an organisation with a distinct ideological focus, which is why it cannot be compared to a typical national (non-EU) government, with a holistic and changeable political outlook.

The fact that we've freely & democratically signed-up to it is utterly irrelevant to my point. My objective is to describe the nature of the EU, to distinguish it from a typical government.

You've just seen the word 'sovereignty' and jumped to a conclusion without reading the context.

All Americans Sound Camp

I voted no to the EU before and my vote wasn't respected. It would be a waste of time voting again because the EU doesn't respect democracy.

FreudianSlippers

I would argue that using the word over 5 times is hardly "in passing". I would also suggest that employing the phrase "unlike free-thinking sovereign states" in the context which you have used it at best strongly implies that EU Member States are not in fact "free-thinking sovereign states".

However, I thank you for clarifying your point... I'm just left scratching my head a bit as to (a) what this has to do with sovereignty and/or why you brought it up in the first place and (b) so what?

FreudianSlippers

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

However, I thank you for clarifying your point... I'm just left scratching my head a bit as to (a) what this has to do with sovereignty

Oh for jaysus sake, there is nothing complicated about this.

A poster asked whether voters will ever stop seeing 'The EU' as a problem, instead of governments.

I am simply replying and explaining why the EU is not directly akin to a government, rather to an ideological organisation.

Any reference to sovereignty is incidental, it simply a way of describing the power-structure within states (parliamentary, popular) and in terms of how the State orders its international relations.

The post is not about sovereignty per se, nor is there a suggestion that we have lost all our sovereignty. How are you still not getting this?

FreudianSlippers

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

However, I thank you for clarifying your point... I'm just left scratching my head a bit as to (a) what this has to do with sovereignty

Oh for jaysus sake, there is nothing complicated about this.

A poster asked whether voters will ever stop seeing 'The EU' as a problem, instead of governments.

I am simply replying and explaining why the EU is not directly akin to a government, rather to an ideological organisation.

Any reference to sovereignty is incidental, it simply a way of describing the power-structure within states (parliamentary, popular) and in terms of how the State orders its international relations.

The post is not about sovereignty per se, nor is there a suggestion that we have lost all our sovereignty. How are you still not getting this?

You seem to be deflecting from the point here. I have pointed out that you appear to be using words and phrases to paint a picture different to the one which you claim to be painting (i.e. any sort of a rational balanced view of the functioning of the EU).

I would also greatly disagree that the EU is not governmental in its actions. Surely by definition implementation of EU law is "governmental" and not some mere ideological entity.

micosoft

Phoebas wrote: »

The problem with the fishing industry is that (apart from it being tiny) we rely on the EU as market for our fish.
That might be problematic when we have to pay fish tariffs.

Key Export Markets 2014|Volume |€ Million
France |30,112 tonnes |€117 million
Great Britain |31,911 tonnes| €65 million
Spain |13,059 tonnes |€57 million
Germany |6,958 tonnes |€19 million
Italy |3,160 tonnes |€26 million
Nigeria |56,377 tonnes |€53 million
China (incl Hong Kong)| 11,219 tonnes |€25 million
Russia |10,797 tonnes |€19 million

In fact many Norwegian Fishermen want to join the EU as the tariffs mean fish gets sent to the EU for processing meaning much reduced employment for fisheries in Norway. We would essentially shut down all our fishery processing and export whole fish to Spain and Poland who will make the finished product. Yet another own goal!

imitation

Fishing seems to punch very highly when people talk about the EU. I know its an important industry and I defintely think it should be supported. At the same time its a tough industry and one of the most dangerous professions. Would the majority trade there office, retail or manufacturing jobs to work on a trawler ? I think people are more inflamed by the thought of spanish and french fishing ships in Irish or Uk waters tbh than being concerned about the industry.

imitation

imitation wrote: »

Fishing seems to punch very highly when people talk about the EU. I know its an important industry and I defintely think it should be supported. At the same time its a tough industry and one of the most dangerous professions. Would the majority trade there office, retail or manufacturing jobs to work on a trawler ?

There has never been any question of 'the majority' putting down our blackberries, nor Facebook HQ being deserted like a Chernobyl lean-to, with all its hairy-faced hipsters gone to sea.

I think most people are simply concerned about the effects of EU fishing quotas on existing fishermen, and would-be fishermen; as well as the knock-on effects of limiting the economic viability of processing plants, and therefore the incomes of entire coastal communities.

Many people, myself included, would argue in favour of developing the fishing industry as a way of sustaining coastal communities. You don't need thousands of fishermen to maintain Glandore or Carna; only small, local industries and processors.

It won't contribute massively to GDP, but it will sustain the economic, cultural and social life of rural communities, allowing people to remain there with their families.

thebeerbaron

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

We do have the richest fishing waters in the EU, that's a very big bargaining chip, if we leave we get a 200 mile exclusion zone where no EU boats can fish, the Dutch, Spanish and French would not be happy.

IF we exclude them from our fish market, they will exclude us from selling our fish in THEIR market. There are no winners in this short sighted talk of exclusions in trade.

Walter H Price

Though i would love to see it happen , i don't think the UK will leave the EU. I don't think an exit is something that would ever be considered here , Farmers doing to well of subsidies and we've already saddle ourselves with generations worth of debt in order to save the Euro once cant see us walking away from that, we don't have the issues with immigration the UK have at least not yet anyway.

I think we are in one of the worst postions in that there is no political appetite to be anything other then lap dogs for the EU if they want closer integration , an Army , to allow a flood of Migrants in , to allow Turkey join , to hike our corporate tax rate and cripple our economy , to devalue our currency , enforce austerity measures etc.. we will have little or no say

The EU is an undemocratic bureaucratic mess that has long since functioned to service the citizens of individual member states , it serves only to make the German and French economy stronger at all costs be that to the detriment of other members economy's. see how long after Brexit it is before TTIP comes to the fore , corporate tax rates are forced to increase etc... not long id wager.

If Britain do leave if they actually value their sovereignty as a nation and walk away i think the European project will struggle to continue for much longer. Sadly like the Scots the fearmongering campaign of the establishment will probably win the day and Europe will continue the slow march to full integration. 800 years of oppression under British rule is often talked about here lets see how better we fair effectively voiceless for even a further 100 years under Brussels/Berlin rule.

Moo Moo Land

I saw odds of 1/11 for Remain earlier on PP.

sword1

thebeerbaron wrote: »

IF we exclude them from our fish market, they will exclude us from selling our fish in THEIR market. There are no winners in this short sighted talk of exclusions in trade.

It is more complicated than that ,Norway and Iceland are in the same markets but not in the eu ,also Spanish canneries got increased amount of tarrif free fish from Asia so if the market needs it it is possible

Help!!!!

Walter H Price wrote: »

The EU is an undemocratic bureaucratic mess that has long since functioned to service the citizens of individual member states , it serves only to make the German and French economy stronger at all costs be that to the detriment of other members economy's. see how long after Brexit it is before TTIP comes to the fore , corporate tax rates are forced to increase etc... not long id wager. .

I find it crazy that more people don't seem to see that the EU benefits only Germany & France economies.
On immigration we need to be very careful we how much we let in. You will never see " refugees " moved into homes near Enda Kenny or in wealthier areas, they will be moved into poorer areas where they will be in competition for jobs/schools/doctors/hospitals with local people who are already struggling & that's where we only have to look across to England & see the reasons UKIP, EDL etc are gaining support
There is a huge difference between allowing these so called refugees into the country & letting them go straight on benefits/housing lists etc & immigrants who come here to work. If someone comes here to work it shouldn't matter where they are from because they are contributing to the economy & society

Walter H Price

Help!!!! wrote: »

I find it crazy that more people don't seem to see that the EU benefits only Germany & France economies.
On immigration we need to be very careful we how much we let in. You will never see " refugees " moved into homes near Enda Kenny or in wealthier areas, they will be moved into poorer areas where they will be in competition for jobs/schools/doctors/hospitals with local people who are already struggling & that's where we only have to look across to England & see the reasons UKIP, EDL etc are gaining support
There is a huge difference between allowing these so called refugees into the country & letting them go straight on benefits/housing lists etc & immigrants who come here to work. If someone comes here to work it shouldn't matter where they are from because they are contributing to the economy & society

It's madness like how anyone can have watched what the EU has done in recent years regards the economic crisis and refugee situation and think this is a democratic union benifiting all members in mind bogling . an Irish budget having to be discussed in the German parliment , TTIP being done behind closed doors , somthing that will severly damage our agri food business , Merkels sneaky deal with Turky and every time we reject one of their poxy treaties we're asked to vote again. Grecce and Italy have been put on the rack , Brian Lenihan had the EU breathing down his neck to gaurentee the banks , who benifited ? German Bondholders no one else certainly not the Irish , Greek or Italin citizens ... im not left wing or at all socialist , cant stand Murphy and the we wont pay for anything brigade but Europe is deeply deeply flawed and unintrested in refom

Pro Hoc Vice

Help!!!! wrote: »

I find it crazy that more people don't seem to see that the EU benefits only Germany & France economies.
On immigration we need to be very careful we how much we let in. You will never see " refugees " moved into homes near Enda Kenny or in wealthier areas, they will be moved into poorer areas where they will be in competition for jobs/schools/doctors/hospitals with local people who are already struggling & that's where we only have to look across to England & see the reasons UKIP, EDL etc are gaining support
There is a huge difference between allowing these so called refugees into the country & letting them go straight on benefits/housing lists etc & immigrants who come here to work. If someone comes here to work it shouldn't matter where they are from because they are contributing to the economy & society

What do you mean "so called refugees". A person is either declared a Refugee or not by either the UN or in Ireland ORAC or the Refugee Appeal Tribunal. Once a person is a Refugee then the host country must allow that person access to all supports a citizen is entitled to. That is not EU law it is the rights set out in the UN convention on Refugees as signed by Ireland in 1956 and it's protocols in 1968.

RobertKK

The result in my opinion will be somewhere around 55% remain, as the don't knows will choose the option they know, rather than choose leave, their doubts about leave is why they don't know so when it comes down to it, they will vote remain.

I will be very surprised if they leave, so I don't see it being an issue for Ireland.

micosoft

imitation wrote: »

Fishing seems to punch very highly when people talk about the EU. I know its an important industry and I defintely think it should be supported. At the same time its a tough industry and one of the most dangerous professions. Would the majority trade there office, retail or manufacturing jobs to work on a trawler ? I think people are more inflamed by the thought of spanish and french fishing ships in Irish or Uk waters tbh than being concerned about the industry.

I think Michael Gove's father put it best (he owned a fisheries business)
“ couldn’t see any future in it, that type of thing, the business that I had, so I wasn’t going to go into all the trouble of having hardship. I just decided to sell up and get a job with someone else. That was all.”

There has been constant overstatement of the value and the capacity of our fishing fleet to exploit fisheries - much like the billions of oil we apparently gave away.

323

thebeerbaron wrote: »

IF we exclude them from our fish market, they will exclude us from selling our fish in THEIR market. There are no winners in this short sighted talk of exclusions in trade.

Highly unlikely, history would imply the opposite is the case.

The establishment of the 200 mile limit was established for non-EU vessels (1970's), led to the huge increase in development in the Irish fishing industry in the late '70's and '80.
It stopped Russia and the then Eastern Block countries that had traditionally fished mackerel off our coast. They came screaming for us to sell to them.

micosoft

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

There has never been any question of 'the majority' putting down our blackberries, nor Facebook HQ being deserted like a Chernobyl lean-to, with all its hairy-faced hipsters gone to sea.

I think most people are simply concerned about the effects of EU fishing quotas on existing fishermen, and would-be fishermen; as well as the knock-on effects of limiting the economic viability of processing plants, and therefore the incomes of entire coastal communities.

Many people, myself included, would argue in favour of developing the fishing industry as a way of sustaining coastal communities. You don't need thousands of fishermen to maintain Glandore or Carna; only small, local industries and processors.

It won't contribute massively to GDP, but it will sustain the economic, cultural and social life of rural communities, allowing people to remain there with their families.

The reality is that Irish (or British) People don't want to fish or work in fish sector. It's dangerous, low paid and at times unpleasant work (including the factories) and ironically the majority coming into the sector are immigrants (look at the names of those who have died in recent ship sinkings). This twee argument that without the EU we would have a thriving fishing industry does not stand up. We didn't before the EU and even less likely now. Obviously the fact that fish stocks would collapse if we go back to a free for all (believe it or not fish don't respect territorial boundaries) would be the final nail in this alternate reality.

Elemonator

No. The FDI is the only thing keeping this country afloat.

flazio

If we did hold a referendum on a European matter, it would go the same way as every other European referendum we've had. If we don't vote as Europe wants us to, we hold the referendum again.

NikoTopps

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

UK will vote to remain. A certainty.

Is that so?

matt-dublin

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

UK will vote to remain. A certainty.

You were saying....?

Wanderer78

To honest folks, I didn't see this coming either. Now things get interesting

First Up

Wanderer78 wrote:

To honest folks, I didn't see this coming either. Now things get interesting

Yes, interesting times ahead. The legal and technical stuff will take time but the market reaction will be immediate and negative. British political fall-out will be significant too but that's there business and their problem.

Immediate headache for us will be how to administer an EU external land border - and be in no doubt that there will be one of some sort.

An awful lot of time and energy that could be used for more useful purposes is now going to be devoted to sorting this out and dealing with the unanticipated and unintended consequences.

The longer term is harder to predict. The UK has shot itself in the foot but it will be a while before the extent of the bleeding can be measured.

No winners from this - the job now is to lose as little as possible.

Wanderer78

First Up wrote:

Yes, interesting times ahead. The legal and technical stuff will take time but the market reaction will be immediate and negative. British political fall-out will be significant too but that's there business and their problem.

Ah mellow out. Make sure you grab a few cans or whatever you do on a Friday evening to relax. This is where politics gets interesting. The sky won't fall in. The planet has survived multiple wars, major recessions, asteroid bombardments etc etc etc. Pull a seat up, this is gonna be damn interesting

CMOTDibbler

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Ah mellow out. Make sure you grab a few cans or whatever you do on a Friday evening to relax. This is where politics gets interesting. The sky won't fall in. The planet has survived multiple wars, major recessions, asteroid bombardments etc etc etc. Pull a seat up, this is gonna be damn interesting

Never was "be careful what you wish for" more true.

The fall out will be economic, political and social. Hard to know the extent yet, but Scotland leaving the UK, Northern Ireland possibly looking to do likewise and the fall of sterling as well as a divided Britain will be the most immediate likelihoods.

It's going to be very interesting. One positive for us could be the redirecting of US direct investment in England, Scotland and Wales switching here instead.

Wanderer78

CMOTDibbler wrote:

Never was "be careful what you wish for" more true.

Ah people are panicking, markets are to, but they do that anyway. this is a very significant vote for us all though. If this doesn't change the eu, there's very little chance anything else will. Today is Friday, tomorrow is Saturday, and it will come, even though it'll be a different Saturday, it won't be that bad. Now politics is getting really interesting

First Up

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Ah mellow out. Make sure you grab a few cans or whatever you do on a Friday evening to relax. This is where politics gets interesting. The sky won't fall in. The planet has survived multiple wars, major recessions, asteroid bombardments etc etc etc. Pull a seat up, this is gonna be damn interesting

Oh, don't worry about me - I am perfectly mellow. The planet will survive, but some bits will survive better than others. That's the interesting bit.