Brexit should we leave too??

Phoebas

kbannon wrote: »

...implying that it wasn't thought through properly?

Well that's fairly clear, but we are where we are.

Phoebas

Here's one good reason why they need time.

Sir Simon Fraser, former Permanent Under-Secretary at the Foreign and
Commonwealth Office (FCO), noted that the UK government currently employs very few (if any) trade negotiators, as the function has long been outsourced to Brussels. He concluded that the practical challenge of negotiating multiple
international agreements in the event of Brexit – whilst also managing the
ongoing business of government – would be huge

CMOTDibbler

Phoebas wrote: »

Here's one good reason why they need time.

It's also something that should have been stated before the referendum. Patently obvious really.

On the other side of the coin, Michael Heseltine has been saying that they should move as quickly as possible to minimise the damage to investment.

First Up

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's also something that should have been stated before the referendum. Patently obvious really.

On the other side of the coin, Michael Heseltine has been saying that they should move as quickly as possible to minimise the damage to investment.

It was, but like all other salient facts it was dismissed as "scaremongering".

jack923

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

UK will vote to remain. A certainty.

Haha

CMOTDibbler

Just to get back on topic a little, but I heard a Tory brexiter on Sky News saying that we should leave too.

I was deeply disappointed that nobody challenged him on it. But it gives the lie to those saying that they don't want to pull the EU apart.

Jack Killian

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Just to get back on topic a little, but I heard a Tory brexiter on Sky News saying that we should leave too.

I was deeply disappointed that nobody challenged him on it. But it gives the lie to those saying that they don't want to pull the EU apart.

Pretty ironic of him considering they were - rightly - objecting to Kenny interfering in their democracy last week ?

That said, given that it came after Kenny's campaigning in a foreign country, hard to blame them for returning the favour.

Fleawuss

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Just to get back on topic a little, but I heard a Tory brexiter on Sky News saying that we should leave too.

I was deeply disappointed that nobody challenged him on it. But it gives the lie to those saying that they don't want to pull the EU apart.

Frank Field of Labour echoing a sentiment of Taylor in the North. It goes to show how idiotically out of touch with Ireland these people are. There is a deep rooted idiocy in the British establishment that we should still be doing what they decide. The irony of Brexit is lost on them. Sturgeon is going to give them a kicking.

Captain Scarlet

Fleawuss wrote: »

Frank Field of Labour echoing a sentiment of Taylor in the North. It goes to show how idiotically out of touch with Ireland these people are. There is a deep rooted idiocy in the British establishment that we should still be doing what they decide. The irony of Brexit is lost on them. Sturgeon is going to give them a kicking.

True. It's still sad though. I mean, for years, I had this awful inferiority complex, thinking in 'these islands' we were the only ones who could really screw things up through ignorance, arrogance and imbecility (if that's a real word). The English (much as though I love them, and much as though they saved my ass by employing me in the eighties when I couldn't get a job here), have just gone and destroyed their own nation (plus a few contiguous ones, if that's a real word). I mean, this is the culture that brought us Shakespeare, Newton, Parliamentary Democracy (okay maybe that was actually the Swiss), Dickens, Austen, Bagpuss, The Wombles! Dammit, don't Professor Yaffle and Great Uncle Bulgaria MEAN anything anymore?

Dai John

If UK suffers a decline in trade all it has to do is deport immigrants and impose rules like "no social welfare until 10 years contributions ". It is rumoured that there are over 7 million immigrants in UK. So what would happen to countries in Eastern Europe when these people go home? German cars etc. are easily replaced. As Farage said a lower GDP could result in a higher standard of living for the individual
Who is going to make upthe cash shortfall without the UK contribution?

Pro Hoc Vice

Help!!!! wrote: »

OK we have all heard the scaremongering of how the UK will lose entry to the single market if they leave but would they really?

A fifth of all German cars were sold in the UK last year
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f6cda050-20bb-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf79.html#axzz4BB67JQOK

The UK buy a fair amount of French cars, wine & cheese etc

Surely Germany & France would try to come to some sort of agreement with importing/exporting goods with the UK.
The world has opened up over the last decade with Asia importing goods not just from the UK but also Ireland
So would it not benefit Ireland to also leave the EU if the UK does?
Would I be incorrect in saying that the majority of Ireland's exports are to the UK,USA & countries outside the EU?

There is a world of difference between "the free market" and "free trade" in the first Germany can do nothing to stop the importation of Nissan cars from Sunderland they cannot be held up by over worked customs officers or let to grow old in customs. In the second the EU can put all sorts of barriers in the UK's way to make importation of cars or jet engines or ARM chips, it's a trade war it may not happen but at the moment it can't as the Treaties stop it but no one knows what the future holds when UK leaves.

Pro Hoc Vice

Dai John wrote: »

If UK suffers a decline in trade all it has to do is deport immigrants and impose rules like "no social welfare until 10 years contributions ". It is rumoured that there are over 7 million immigrants in UK. So what would happen to countries in Eastern Europe when these people go home? German cars etc. are easily replaced. As Farage said a lower GDP could result in a higher standard of living for the individual
Who is going to make upthe cash shortfall without the UK contribution?

72% of current EU migrants in UK currently have right to British Passports waiting next 2-3 years that will rise.

BTW only 3.3 million of emigrants in UK are EU with over 1.8 million from the the non Eastern Europe countries. So the 7 million you talk about well 4 million are not from EU so why would UK send them home in a spate with EU Also what would happen to the I think 1-2 million uk nationals in the EU.

First Up

Pro Hoc Vice wrote:

BTW only 3.3 million of emigrants in UK are EU with over 1.8 million from the the non Eastern Europe countries. So the 7 million you talk about well 4 million are not from EU so why would UK send them home in a spate with EU Also what would happen to the I think 1-2 million uk nationals in the EU.

Yes, the UK could deport the immigrants who run the NHS, while taking back the couple of million UK retired emigres who would become customers of the same NHS.

micosoft

First Up wrote: »

Yes, the UK could deport the immigrants who run the NHS, while taking back the couple of million UK retired emigres who would become customers of the same NHS.

This. It's the appalling failure of fact of the little Englanders that they don't understand that the immigrants make a bigger contribution to the economic and social fabric of England then the locals do proportionality. You kick out the immigrants you think some scrout from Sunderland will replace your immigrant surgeon in the NHS?

micosoft

Xyzforsure wrote: »

No we would be fecked.

We need to be part of either the eu or some commonwealth scenario.

The reality is we are a small country very dependent on external matters.

Oh and we are skint!

The commonwealth has no trade or economic function. It is worthless from that perspective despite some commentators from the Brexit faction saying it "could".

We aren't skint. We are one of the wealthiest countries in the world. There are plenty of people who aren't skint. How we choose to manage and spend that wealth is our decision.

micosoft

Help!!!! wrote: »

Well if Trump becomes president I think we should leave & buddy up with the USA & UK. We have more in common with the both of them than the rest of Europe. We are already trading with Asia & no matter what the scaremongers are saying we will still be trading with Europe because they will still want to trade with us & UK

http://www.newstalk.com/Should-Ireland-follow-the-UK-and-leave-the-EU-too

Speak for yourself but I and many others have far more in common with a Berliner than I have with a gun rights Texan or a racist little Englander who calls me Paddy.

This is just aside from the fact we had to fight to leave English domination and the US has no interest in us or England outside of Europe. The day we leave the US multinationals will pack up and leave.

England will still be trading with Europe on Europes terms. Like it will trade with the US and China at their terms. Bismark called it Realpolitik. Where diplomatic niceties meet the hard reality of size and power.

intheclouds

micosoft wrote: »

....or a racist little Englander who calls me Paddy.

Can you even see the irony in your use of the term "little Englander"?

Finnbar01

intheclouds wrote: »

Can you even see the irony in your use of the term "little Englander"?

He's engaging in projection.

As Francis Bacon once wrote 'the turning of the cat in the pan'.

mitchconnor16

micosoft wrote: »

Help!!!! wrote: »

Well if Trump becomes president I think we should leave & buddy up with the USA & UK. We have more in common with the both of them than the rest of Europe. We are already trading with Asia & no matter what the scaremongers are saying we will still be trading with Europe because they will still want to trade with us & UK

http://www.newstalk.com/Should-Ireland-follow-the-UK-and-leave-the-EU-too

Speak for yourself but I and many others have far more in common with a Berliner than I have with a gun rights Texan or a racist little Englander who calls me Paddy.

This is just aside from the fact we had to fight to leave English domination and the US has no interest in us or England outside of Europe. The day we leave the US multinationals will pack up and leave.

England will still be trading with Europe on Europes terms. Like it will trade with the US and China at their terms. Bismark called it Realpolitik. Where diplomatic niceties meet the hard reality of size and power.

I don't think I have anything in common with a 'Berliner' and I certainly don't speak German. But I do speak English, and Britain is Ireland's largest trading partner, and close to a million Irish live in Britain in comparison to 30,000 Irish who live in Germany.
You may call that Realpolitik, but it' is in fact economics. No sane politician would jeopardize Ireland's relationship with Britain, and if we are to decide on what direction our future should take, it should be out of Europe.

First Up

mitchconnor16 wrote:

I don't think I have anything in common with a 'Berliner' and I certainly don't speak German. But I do speak English, and Britain is Ireland's largest trading partner, and close to a million Irish live in Britain in comparison to 30,000 Irish who live in Germany. You may call that Realpolitik, but it' is in fact economics. No sane politician would jeopardize Ireland's relationship with Britain, and if we are to decide on what direction our future should take, it should be out of Europe.

No sane politician will back us into having to make a stark choice. We will stay in the EU and manage the UK situation as well as possible.

mitchconnor16

First Up wrote: »

mitchconnor16 wrote:

I don't think I have anything in common with a 'Berliner' and I certainly don't speak German. But I do speak English, and Britain is Ireland's largest trading partner, and close to a million Irish live in Britain in comparison to 30,000 Irish who live in Germany. You may call that Realpolitik, but it' is in fact economics. No sane politician would jeopardize Ireland's relationship with Britain, and if we are to decide on what direction our future should take, it should be out of Europe.

No sane politician will back us into having to make a stark choice. We will stay in the EU and manage the UK situation as well as possible.

They already are by demanding a border poll. The Republic has admitted it can't survive without the EU yet it wants to expand it's territory to include Northern Ireland, a country whose running cost is 20 billion a year, less than half is contributed by them alone.

First Up

mitchconnor16 wrote:

They already are by demanding a border poll. The Republic has admitted it can't survive without the EU yet it wants to expand it's territory to include Northern Ireland, a country whose running cost is 20 billion a year, less than half is contributed by them alone.

Nobody is demanding anything. A "border poll" would be a matter for the UK government and the N.I electorate. If the British government makes up the shortfall in EU subsidies, that will be the end of it. If they don't, the good folk of N.I can consider their options.

Either way, it has little to do with Ireland's EU membership. Nobody has "admitted" the Republic can't survive without the EU but we would be a lot worse off without it, whatever Britain does.

djpbarry

Dai John wrote: »

If UK suffers a decline in trade all it has to do is deport immigrants and impose rules like "no social welfare until 10 years contributions ". It is rumoured that there are over 7 million immigrants in UK. So what would happen to countries in Eastern Europe when these people go home? German cars etc. are easily replaced. As Farage said a lower GDP could result in a higher standard of living for the individual

Farage said a number of things that he later admitted were bollocks.

Deporting seven million people is not going to be of any economic benefit to anyone, least of all the UK.

djpbarry

mitchconnor16 wrote: »

I don't think I have anything in common with a 'Berliner' and I certainly don't speak German. But I do speak English, and Britain is Ireland's largest trading partner…

No, the EU is and that will continue to be the case when the UK leaves:

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/gei/goodsexportsandimportsdecember2015

mitchconnor16 wrote: »

…and close to a million Irish live in Britain in comparison to 30,000 Irish who live in Germany.

I’m Irish, I live in London and I think it would be absolute madness for Ireland to follow the UK’s completely irrational decision to leave the EU.

I also speak a bit of German, together with French and some Spanish.

mitchconnor16 wrote: »

No sane politician would jeopardize Ireland's relationship with Britain, and if we are to decide on what direction our future should take, it should be out of Europe.

If it comes down to a straight choice between the UK and the EU, no sane politician would opt for the UK.

micosoft

intheclouds wrote: »

Can you even see the irony in your use of the term "little Englander"?

Not really because you have made the rather silly assumption I think all English people are little Englanders.

Not all English People are "little Englanders"
But all Little Englanders think of Irish people as "Paddy" :pac:

micosoft

mitchconnor16 wrote: »

I don't think I have anything in common with a 'Berliner' and I certainly don't speak German. But I do speak English, and Britain is Ireland's largest trading partner, and close to a million Irish live in Britain in comparison to 30,000 Irish who live in Germany.
You may call that Realpolitik, but it' is in fact economics. No sane politician would jeopardize Ireland's relationship with Britain, and if we are to decide on what direction our future should take, it should be out of Europe.

You might have missed the part I said "many" and not "all" - seems to be a recurring theme in this thread. There are people in the Republic who would like to rejoin the United Kingdom. The fact is the majority of people in Ireland want to remain in the EU and I suspect in general have a far broader worldview then those that voted out in the UK referendum.

You may have missed it but it was Cameron that jeopardised the UK's relationship with Ireland as well as the EU by unilaterally taking the decision to hold a referendum leading to the UK's withdrawal. Broad unspecific platitudes that "something will be done" or "Germany sells cars to the UK" fail to address the reality that the damage is done and that the economic reality is that the UK is outside the EU.

longford101

If Ireland left, we'd have major major problems.. lack of infrastructure investments and educational allowances. Never should we leave!