South Africa v Ireland, Match Thread

Podge_irl

Billysays no wrote: »

duty of care says that play should be stopped.

Why?

If it makes no material difference to the care received by the player (and it doesn't) then duty of care dictates nothing.

You were annoyed Leinster scored while Connacht were a man down and are trying to use a different argument for it. It's pathetic.

With everyone fit there are some amount of combinations available from 10-15 at this point.

MJohnston

Billysays no wrote: »

Honestly are you so far removed from the sport of rugby that you believe what you have just written. What you say undermines the complete values of the game

Sorry, but you're living in a dream world, this EXACT thing has happened very recently https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodgate

Billysays no

Adbrowne wrote: »

Do you really think players wont abuse a system if they can gain an advantage for their team when there is trophies and money at stake? you yourself posted a link to a story about how a player was willing to abuse the "values" in order for his team to try and win a game.

You are the one living in la la land and making a fool of yourself. You cant keep a consistent line of thought for 3 posts without contradicting yourself.

I provided you with your line of thought which I thought you might enjoy. It is the only incident in rugby in recent memory or in fact ever (in my memory) the game of rugby was brought into disrepute.

And yes I do believe in players and playing staff. Why else would I watch the game. I don't believe results are simply being construed. I believe rugby is a great game, a game to be proud of.

I may not agree on how Ireland play but I do love rugby as a game and I want it to represent family values. Truth, integrity, leadership, bonding, working together as examples. And this it does. It is the best game of earth but ignoring players who expound those values splayed out on the field undermines the sport itself.

Neil3030

My stab at the fully fit November 23:

15. Payne
14. Trimble
13. Henshaw
12. Marshall
11. Earls
10. Sexton
9. Murray
8. Heaslip
7. O'Brien
6. O'Mahony
5. Toner
4. Henderson
3. Furlong
2. Best
1. McGrath

16. Cronin
17. Healy
18. Moore
19. Dillane
20. Stander
21. Marmion
22. Jackson
23. Olding

Who could play their way in with a great start to the season: Bowe, Matt Healy, Adeolokun, McCloskey, Kearney brothers.

Who I doubt will return to fitness/form in time: SOB, Cian Healy.

Who will most likely need injuries to have any chance of getting in: Henry, VDF, Ruddock, Donnacha Ryan, Madigan, Gilroy, O'Halloran.

Adbrowne

Billysays no wrote: »

I provided you with your line of thought which I thought you might enjoy. It is the only incident in rugby in recent memory or in fact ever (in my memory) the game of rugby was brought into disrepute.

And yes I do believe in players and playing staff. Why else would I watch the game. I don't believe results are simply being construed. I believe rugby is a great game, a game to be proud of.

I may not agree on how Ireland play but I do love rugby as a game and I want it to represent family values. Truth, integrity, leadership, bonding, working together as examples. And this it does. It is the best game of earth but ignoring players who expound those values splayed out on the field undermines the sport itself.

The reason that incident you linked is a rarity is because the system is far less open to abuse because the medics can attend players and play can go on, once it is safe. I never said results are being construed but if there is a system in place open to abuse it will happen.

Also when has a player lying prone on the ground been ignored? We have seen games being stopped when necessary and games continuing when the medics are able to tend to a player without delay because the play has moved on.

Again you just contradict yourself.

Was it Huget who did a blatant dive a few seasons ago which was just embarrassment? What about the last RWC, who was it that got scolded for diving by Nigel Owens?

former total

Ah lads. Can you not see it?

thomond2006

former total wrote: »

Ah lads. Can you not see it?

A collection of words?

bilston

jm08 wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

So say everyone is fully fit in November what is our best 23?

I'd be veering towards this side...

15 Payne
14 Bowe
13 Henshaw
12 Marshall
11 Fitzgerald
10 Sexton
9 Murray
1 McGrath
2 Best
3 Ross
4 Toner
5 Henderson
6 O'Mahony
7 O'Brien
8 Heaslip

16 Cronin, 17 Healy, 18 Ross, 19 Dillane, 20 Stander, 21 Marmion, 22 Jackson, 23 Earls

Admittedly there is a big leap of faith there in selecting Bowe and probably a bit unrealistic, but if he did get back to his best he would still be out best winger.

There would be some tough calls though, not least at B/S flanker.

Not that we will ever be injury free of course, but that's a pretty decent 23 that could definitely challenge at the top table.

Don't know about Fitzgerald being ahead of Earls. He wasn't at the world cup.

It's always going to be very tight between those two. It's rare that they are both fit at the same time.

As for the WC I'm pretty sure Fitzgerald was there. Did he not score against Argentina?

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

It's always going to be very tight between those two. It's rare that they are both fit at the same time.

As for the WC I'm pretty sure Fitzgerald was there. Did he not score against Argentina?

He wasn't ahead of Earls.

AbusesToilets

molloyjh wrote: »

He wasn't ahead of Earls.

Should have been, but that's an argument for last year...

MJohnston

Ireland defense analysis:
http://www.the42.ie/ireland-defence-south-africa-ireland-defence-2820487-Jun2016/?utm_source=shortlink

Several of those gifs made me want to stand up and yell, so fecking good!

leakyboots

Stander apparently got a week ban they're saying on Twitter

OldRio

https://twitter.com/search?q=stander+rugby&ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Esearch


Interesting

jm08

bilston wrote: »

It's always going to be very tight between those two. It's rare that they are both fit at the same time.

As for the WC I'm pretty sure Fitzgerald was there. Did he not score against Argentina?

He was there, just that Earls was the starter and Luke was on the bench. Earls has started every game he has been fit for since he came back from his long term injury. I think he along with Heaslip were the only players to start every game at the world cup. Fitz started one game (v Canada) and covered the bench otherwise.

eigrod

Neil3030 wrote: »

My stab at the fully fit November 23:

15. Payne
14. Trimble
13. Henshaw
12. Marshall
11. Earls
10. Sexton
9. Murray
8. Heaslip
7. O'Brien
6. O'Mahony
5. Toner
4. Henderson
3. Furlong
2. Best
1. McGrath

16. Cronin
17. Healy
18. Moore
19. Dillane
20. Stander
21. Marmion
22. Jackson
23. Olding

Who could play their way in with a great start to the season: Bowe, Matt Healy, Adeolokun, McCloskey, Kearney brothers.

Who I doubt will return to fitness/form in time: SOB, Cian Healy.

Who will most likely need injuries to have any chance of getting in: Henry, VDF, Ruddock, Donnacha Ryan, Madigan, Gilroy, O'Halloran.

Zebo goes from 6 nations starter to not even meriting a mention in any of your categories ?

The Rape of Lucretia

eigrod wrote: »

Zebo goes from 6 nations starter to not even meriting a mention in any of your categories ?

Thats more or less it. He has been given a pretty good stint to show he is up to international rugby. And has never stepped up. Been overtaken now by too many exciting players delivering, or deserving their of own chance to stake a claim. Zeebs is off the agenda now.

Billysays no

eigrod wrote: »

Zebo goes from 6 nations starter to not even meriting a mention in any of your categories ?

Zebo doesnt rate in what Ireland play. And thats hugely responsible to murray. He doesnt know how to use a winger/fullback and joe is most happy with that. God bless munster next year

phog

leakyboots wrote: »

Stander apparently got a week ban they're saying on Twitter

Looks like the week ban was issued to safe face for the officials. A guy with a YC would probably only have got that.

Billysays no

too many exciting players?

get me excited rape of lucretia

Adbrowne

phog wrote: »

Looks like the week ban was issued to safe face for the officials. A guy with a YC would probably only have got that.

If he got a YC he would have been cited anyway and probably a longer ban

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Adbrowne wrote: »

If he got a YC he would have been cited anyway and probably a longer ban

Unless the citing commissioner thought the yellow was the correct call and then he wouldn't have been cited.

jm08

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Thats more or less it. He has been given a pretty good stint to show he is up to international rugby. And has never stepped up. Been overtaken now by too many exciting players delivering, or deserving their of own chance to stake a claim. Zeebs is off the agenda now.

Actually, Zebo has been used out of position at fullback for the last year or so.

phog

Adbrowne wrote: »

If he got a YC he would have been cited anyway and probably a longer ban

You mean just like Henshaw?

Adbrowne

phog wrote: »

You mean just like Henshaw?

Henshaw didnt do what stander did.

Billysays no

Have to admit I will never support this collision game strategy. Its flat colisions all the time. And in the end the bigger team wins. I will never support this. I bitched about henshaw doing same, i bitched about marmion being so slow about the ruck. I refuse to believe that our national team, that we build on the ability of our provinces, can be such an awful team

molloyjh

phog wrote: »

Looks like the week ban was issued to safe face for the officials. A guy with a YC would probably only have got that.

No. There have been other occasions where bans were not handed out after red cards. Wasn't there a game recently where a red card was doled out and the citing commissioner afterwards made a public statement to say the red card was wrong? Can't remember the details off-hand.

Apparently CJ got 2 weeks reduced to 1. It was dangerous play with no intent. Minimum sanction for that is 2 weeks. It all fits with the laws of the game.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

No. There have been other occasions where bans were not handed out after red cards. Wasn't there a game recently where a red card was doled out and the citing commissioner afterwards made a public statement to say the red card was wrong? Can't remember the details off-hand.

Henderson.

molloyjh

Billysays no wrote: »

Have to admit I will never support this collision game strategy. Its flat colisions all the time. And in the end the bigger team wins. I will never support this. I bitched about henshaw doing same, i bitched about marmion being so slow about the ruck. I refuse to believe that our national team, that we build on the ability of our provinces, can be such an awful team

So bad in fact that they can't even beat a team at home when that team are down a man for most of the game, and 2 men for some of that too.

Oh wait..... :rolleyes:

Look you come in here and spout this nonsense ad nauseum but you clearly haven't got a clue. Our national team has won 2 trophies in 3 years. Other than NZ name me another Tier 1 side that has done that lately. Our national team just won a Test in SA. Not something many teams have managed. And we did it with one hand tied behind our backs. If you want to keep sh*tting all over them even when they are doing well you're just being utterly ridiculous and you're also ruining this for the rest of us. Have some bloody respect for what the Irish team have achieved and show some bloody decency towards your fellow posters and pack it in already. We get it. We know. Now please move the f**k on and stop making this forum painful for everyone else with your whinging.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Billysays no wrote: »

Have to admit I will never support this collision game strategy. Its flat colisions all the time. And in the end the bigger team wins. I will never support this. I bitched about henshaw doing same, i bitched about marmion being so slow about the ruck. I refuse to believe that our national team, that we build on the ability of our provinces, can be such an awful team

What happened, Billy?

You were making sense and being somewhat reasonable for a few days there.

phog

Adbrowne wrote: »

Henshaw didnt do what stander did.

What Henshaw did had more intent, he got his YC but not followed up with a citing.

molloyjh wrote: »

No. There have been other occasions where bans were not handed out after red cards. Wasn't there a game recently where a red card was doled out and the citing commissioner afterwards made a public statement to say the red card was wrong? Can't remember the details off-hand.

Apparently CJ got 2 weeks reduced to 1. It was dangerous play with no intent. Minimum sanction for that is 2 weeks. It all fits with the laws of the game.

If that was cut and dried why the delay in reaching its finding? Seems to me they wanted to give minimum ban to safe face.

Billysays no

molloyjh wrote: »

So bad in fact that they can't even beat a team at home when that team are down a man for most of the game, and 2 men for some of that too.

Oh wait..... :rolleyes:

Look you come in here and spout this nonsense ad nauseum but you clearly haven't got a clue. Our national team has won 2 trophies in 3 years. Other than NZ name me another Tier 1 side that has done that lately. Our national team just won a Test in SA. Not something many teams have managed. And we did it with one hand tied behind our backs. If you want to keep sh*tting all over them even when they are doing well you're just being utterly ridiculous and you're also ruining this for the rest of us. Have some bloody respect for what the Irish team have achieved and show some bloody decency towards your fellow posters and pack it in already. We get it. We know. Now please move the f**k on and stop making this forum painful for everyone else with your whinging.

So that wasnt the most horrible rugby you have ever seen? And you are happy to witness this flat rugby once again? Because you won a game? If this is what qualifies as success then Coetzee has a point

The Rape of Lucretia

Billysays no wrote: »

So that wasnt the most horrible rugby you have ever seen?

Most certainly not. Some of it was really excellent.

Adbrowne

Billysays no wrote: »

So that wasnt the most horrible rugby you have ever seen? And you are happy to witness this flat rugby once again? Because you won a game? If this is what qualifies as success then Coetzee has a point

Flat rugby? Did you actually watch the game?

connemara man

Billysays no wrote: »

So that wasnt the most horrible rugby you have ever seen? And you are happy to witness this flat rugby once again? Because you won a game? If this is what qualifies as success then Coetzee has a point

Billy do you expect any team to play like the type of rugby you want with 14 men on the field for 60 minutes and 13 for 10 of them?

It's an unfair criticism of the team and management in those conditions. The Rugby we played before the red was some of the most open rugby Ireland have played in ages and was great to watch.

Neil3030

So I had another look at the phases that lead to Murray's final box kick and I have to say we were under very little pressure at the breakdown. If I remember correctly, from the scrum there were two phases where SA committed nobody to the ruck, then a third where they committed one, right before the box kick. So he must have feared they were laying a trap, to eventually overload an ensuing ruck to win the turnover. They had a nice line spread out, while we were a bit more all over the place.

Adbrowne

phog wrote: »

What Henshaw did had more intent, he got his YC but not followed up with a citing.



If that was cut and dried why the delay in reaching its finding? Seems to me they wanted to give minimum ban to safe face.

Im assuming Stander pleaded not guilty because JS said ireland would fight it so ireland put a case together and the result was the minimum 2 weeks cut for good record etc. Cant see how it was face saving when the ban is in line with other bans handed out for a player making contact with the head of an opponent (puafisi for example)

Henshaw made a high tackle but he was standing up straight against a shorter opponent. High tackles get punished according to seriousness. Maestri got YC after the match in february for his shoulder charge on sexton so The yc for Henshaw was consistent.

Billysays no

connemara man wrote: »

Billy do you expect any team to play like the type of rugby you want with 14 men on the field for 60 minutes and 13 for 10 of them?

It's an unfair criticism of the team and management in those conditions. The Rugby we played before the red was some of the most open rugby Ireland have played in ages and was great to watch.

I accept that critisism. Totally valid point. And yet I struggle so much with this 'stuff'. I remember murray kicking a high ball for hensahw to nail against england. It sums up the rubbish. We will never have a winger who does things like healy. Its simply soul destroying to watch how the only way murray can use a winger is do a boxkick. He is incapable otherwise. Its no wonder Munster have issues

thomond2006

Billysays no wrote: »

Have to admit I will never support this collision game strategy. Its flat colisions all the time. And in the end the bigger team wins. I will never support this. I bitched about henshaw doing same, i bitched about marmion being so slow about the ruck. I refuse to believe that our national team, that we build on the ability of our provinces, can be such an awful team

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAD7L_GWkb0

molloyjh

phog wrote: »

If that was cut and dried why the delay in reaching its finding? Seems to me they wanted to give minimum ban to safe face.

Well I'm sure there's no way to change that. It's a completely subjective opinion that has no backing evidence whatsoever to support it. On the other hand the fact that we've seen citing panels overturn red cards recently plus the fact that the entry level for the offence is 2 weeks plus the fact that it was clearly unintentional would all suggest a 2 week ban. CJs good record (and tie and humble demeanour in the citing hearing) would be enough, based on all known precendent, to reduce that to 1 week.

So there's a pretty clear and obvious logic and rational to the sentence based on evidence and precedent. Obviously you're entitled to your opinion but it seems odd to ignore the above I would have thought?

molloyjh

I see Billy has chosen to ignore the substantive point in my post so that he can continue on ranting. Any chance we can all stick him on ignore so that we can get a bit of peace? There is no more discussion to be had here. Hell, in all reality there never was.

EDIT: And no, for the record that was a long, long way from the worst game of rugby that I have ever seen. But with utterly facile and hyperbolic statements like that is there really any point in engaging further?

mfceiling

Billysays no wrote: »

I accept that critisism. Totally valid point. And yet I struggle so much with this 'stuff'. I remember murray kicking a high ball for hensahw to nail against england. It sums up the rubbish. We will never have a winger who does things like healy. Its simply soul destroying to watch how the only way murray can use a winger is do a boxkick. He is incapable otherwise. Its no wonder Munster have issues

How can Murray ruin a winger? Seriously?

He box kicks - the winger chases it.

He passes to the first receiver (normally the 10) and the ball is passed along the backline.

Where does this fit your adjective of him ruining wingers?

Billysays no

molloyjh wrote: »

I see Billy has chosen to ignore the substantive point in my post so that he can continue on ranting. Any chance we can all stick him on ignore so that we can get a bit of peace? There is no more discussion to be had here. Hell, in all reality there never was.

EDIT: And no, for the record that was a long, long way from the worst game of rugby that I have ever seen. But with utterly facile and hyperbolic statements like that is there really any point in engaging further?

I'm sorry mollyj. I tend to ignore (to a degree) the need to crash lines and feel proud about it, and then crash again, and then maybe crash again. And if your lacking ideas lets just crash again. My viewpoint of Joe. And at least he said we would finish 6 nations midtable with this rubbish. He is a teacher, he knows a pass mark. He got lucky with a new coach and an equality issue.

Zzippy

Billy you have been banging this drum for a few weeks now, across numerous threads. You don't like the style Ireland play. You think playing on while a player is down is not rugby. We are all well aware of that by now. That's enough, we've all had more than enough of those discussions. Find a different bee in your bonnet to rant about.

Everyone else, quit it with the derogatory posts and backseat modding about the quality of posts and discussion in the forum. To those who report posts, thank you. They may not always be acted on because they don't pass a threshold to be considered trolling, but we do appreciate the assistance. To those who bitch and moan in the forum, and make snide comments, those will no longer be tolerated.

Billysays no

Zzippy wrote: »

Billy you have been banging this drum for a few weeks now, across numerous threads. You don't like the style Ireland play. You think playing on while a player is down is not rugby. We are all well aware of that by now. That's enough, we've all had more than enough of those discussions. Find a different bee in your bonnet to rant about.

Everyone else, quit it with the derogatory posts and backseat modding about the quality of posts and discussion in the forum. To those who report posts, thank you. They may not always be acted on because they don't pass a threshold to be considered trolling, but we do appreciate the assistance. To those who bitch and moan in the forum, and make snide comments, those will no longer be tolerated.

Zzippy I fight a corner in what I believe. I don't apologize for that. I don't shower abuse on other users as abuse has been heavily showered on me.

MJohnston

Billysays no wrote: »

I'm sorry mollyj. I tend to ignore (to a degree) the need to crash lines and feel proud about it, and then crash again, and then maybe crash again. And if your lacking ideas lets just crash again. My viewpoint of Joe. And at least he said we would finish 6 nations midtable with this rubbish. He is a teacher, he knows a pass mark. He got lucky with a new coach and an equality issue.

So is it that are Ireland a team that can only box kick, or a team that can only play crashball? Because those two opinions that you have posted in quick succession seem rather diametrically opposed.

Of course, it doesn't really matter, because the only one-dimensional team on the pitch on Saturday was South Africa. Ireland had fantastic variation in attack even when they were 2 men down (the way PJ co-ordinated that drop goal was just lovely) and tremendous bravery, intelligence and resilience in defence.

It was a hugely entertaining game, and I think you need to refresh your talking points as they seem to be targeted at the early-Six Nations 2016 Ireland, and not the team that made history on Saturday past.

nehe milner skudder

surprised henshaw didn't get done. his tackle was a disgrace.

MJohnston

nehe milner skudder wrote: »

surprised henshaw didn't get done. his tackle was a disgrace.

Clearly no intent really, and he was punished enough on the day.

phog

Adbrowne wrote: »

Im assuming Stander pleaded not guilty because JS said ireland would fight it so ireland put a case together and the result was the minimum 2 weeks cut for good record etc. Cant see how it was face saving when the ban is in line with other bans handed out for a player making contact with the head of an opponent (puafisi for example)

Henshaw made a high tackle but he was standing up straight against a shorter opponent. High tackles get punished according to seriousness. Maestri got YC after the match in february for his shoulder charge on sexton so The yc for Henshaw was consistent.

molloyjh wrote: »

Well I'm sure there's no way to change that. It's a completely subjective opinion that has no backing evidence whatsoever to support it. On the other hand the fact that we've seen citing panels overturn red cards recently plus the fact that the entry level for the offence is 2 weeks plus the fact that it was clearly unintentional would all suggest a 2 week ban. CJs good record (and tie and humble demeanour in the citing hearing) would be enough, based on all known precendent, to reduce that to 1 week.

So there's a pretty clear and obvious logic and rational to the sentence based on evidence and precedent. Obviously you're entitled to your opinion but it seems odd to ignore the above I would have thought?

You can also add in a former international ref saying it was incorrect to issue a red card and then Joe (who hasn't been shy about complaining about head injuries due to recklessness) saying the decision to issue a red card was very, very harsh, SA didn't seem to make an issue of it unlike the French in the SOB case.

Pretty obvious to anyone that there's divided opinion on the card and the delay in reaching their decision leads me to believe they were trying to save face.

If it was so straightforward then why had we such a long drawn out process?

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

You can also add in a former international ref saying it was incorrect to issue a red card and then Joe (who hasn't been shy about complaining about head injuries due to recklessness) saying the decision to issue a red card was very, very harsh, SA didn't seem to make an issue of it unlike the French in the SOB case.

Pretty obvious to anyone that there's divided opinion on the card and the delay in reaching their decision leads me to believe they were trying to save face.

If it was so straightforward then why had we such a long drawn out process?

Here's your answer.

The disciplinary hearing that followed was adjourned by Willis after five hours on Sunday, and again after it was renewed on Monday morning.

This was apparently so as Willis could consult with a sports biomechanics expert after Ireland, who had engaged a South African lawyer who has represented foreign players in disciplinary hearings before, cited another example in the second half. That came when South Africa fullback Willie le Roux made slight contact with Paddy Jackson in attempting to do as Stander had done and when also unable to change direction in mid-air.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/cj-stander-receives-one-week-ban-for-pat-lambie-tackle-1.2683390

Billysays no

MJohnston wrote: »

So is it that are Ireland a team that can only box kick, or a team that can only play crashball? Because those two opinions that you have posted in quick succession seem rather diametrically opposed.

Of course, it doesn't really matter, because the only one-dimensional team on the pitch on Saturday was South Africa. Ireland had fantastic variation in attack even when they were 2 men down (the way PJ co-ordinated that drop goal was just lovely) and tremendous bravery, intelligence and resilience in defence.

It was a hugely entertaining game, and I think you need to refresh your talking points as they seem to be targeted at the early-Six Nations 2016 Ireland, and not the team that made history on Saturday past.

mjohnston it sums the game. we can only get our wingers involved with a boxkick, we can only crash ball otherwise. thats it. no more ideas. can i say i really, really, really don't like joe or would somebody get upset?