Eircode design

plodder

Curly Judge wrote: »

But why is Eircode coupled, paired, and associated with a new.... never before used ......address?

Because the "official" postal address according to An Post is considered to be the single authoritative address. An Post were in many cases happy to deliver your post using other address formats, but things are more complicated in the digital world.

Eircode provides the ability to match addresses using other criteria, like common misspellings, or other commonly used formats. Maybe the credit card company just doesn't have sophisticated enough software to do that. Or, maybe the credit card company isn't in a position to be able to use the information. If the former, then maybe the problem will be fixed in time. If the latter, then perhaps people will end up being forced to use their postal address, which would be a pita.

PDVerse

Curly Judge wrote: »

But why is Eircode coupled, paired, and associated with a new.... never before used ......address?

Your postal address isn't new, you've simply been unaware of it previously. Eircode are precluded from changing an address and simply include both a Postal and Geographic version of the address, both provided by An Post, to whoever licenses the Eircode database.

An Post adding stickers to addresses that don't match their postal address isn't new.

The address as you write it is not recorded anywhere as an official address: there is no "official" address database for Ireland.

Address matching and verification solutions can verify your address and postcode without requiring you to provide your postal address. Some implementations aren't as sophisticated, but should improve over time.

Curly Judge

PDVerse wrote: »

Your postal address isn't new, you've simply been unaware of it previously. Eircode are precluded from changing an address and simply include both a Postal and Geographic version of the address, both provided by An Post, to whoever licenses the Eircode database.

An Post adding stickers to addresses that don't match their postal address isn't new.

The address as you write it is not recorded anywhere as an official address: there is no "official" address database for Ireland.

Address matching and verification solutions can verify your address and postcode without requiring you to provide your postal address. Some implementations aren't as sophisticated, but should improve over time.

So... the address I've been using for the last seventy years .....and my father and grandfather before me....and the register of elections.... and my doctor..... and the Revenue.... has been a mere chimera?
A figment of the local popular imagination perhaps?

PDVerse

Curly Judge wrote: »

So... the address I've been using for the last seventy years .....and my father and grandfather before me....and the register of elections.... and my doctor..... and the Revenue.... has been a mere chimera?
A figment of the local popular imagination perhaps?

The address doesn't exist in an "official" address database, because there is no "official" address database. The Eircode advice is simple: use the address you have always used, just add Eircode at the end of the address. Implementations that use Eircode data should be able to take "local use" addresses. If they can't then they should be improved.

An Post always ask people to use their postal address when using their services to optimise the efficiency of the service they provide.

MBSnr

Curly Judge wrote: »

So... the address I've been using for the last seventy years .....and my father and grandfather before me....and the register of elections.... and my doctor..... and the Revenue.... has been a mere chimera?
A figment of the local popular imagination perhaps?

Just depends on what has been passed down through the years... Doesn't mean it is actually correct for An Post use. In my area some people use the next largest village on their postal address (which is incorrect), others use the correct postal sorting town 18 miles away. Had people visit us and ring from that town 18 miles away, saying where is the house...!

Our address appears officially (Eircode/ESB etc) with an extra suffix in it, but locally it isn't used by anyone that I know. Some still also add an extra letter to the name as it was spelt differently on older maps.

oscarBravo

Curly Judge wrote: »

So... the address I've been using for the last seventy years .....and my father and grandfather before me....and the register of elections.... and my doctor..... and the Revenue.... has been a mere chimera?
A figment of the local popular imagination perhaps?

No. Just not your postal address.

Curly Judge

PDVerse wrote: »

The address doesn't exist in an "official" address database, because there is no "official" address database. The Eircode advice is simple: use the address you have always used, just add Eircode at the end of the address. Implementations that use Eircode data should be able to take "local use" addresses. If they can't then they should be improved.

An Post always ask people to use their postal address when using their services to optimise the efficiency of the service they provide.

Pat....has it ever crossed your mind that Eircode itself should have been improved before it was released to wreck havoc among the public?
All this address fallout.....which amounts to identity theft....is down to the implementation of a useless post code which can not be validated.

Curly Judge

oscarBravo wrote: »

No. Just not your postal address.

Where can I find this register of addresses?

oscarBravo

Curly Judge wrote: »

All this address fallout.....which amounts to identity theft....

Seriously?

...is down to the implementation of a useless post code which can not be validated.

Of course it can be validated.

Curly Judge wrote: »

Where can I find this register of addresses?

It's called "geodirectory".

byrnefm

Curious.. the routing keys are designed around An Post's sorting requirements, for reasons described many times previously. If An Post decide in the future that, say the Galway area would have an additional major postal town area, would the current Eircode routing key be split into two to suit An Post's updated needs? Otherwise, over time, Eircode would deviate from their usage of the defined routing keys.

Now, I'm not expecting that that would happen anytime soon but was wondering if it was envisaged that additional / new keys could be added over time.

(Incidentally there is a lot of spare keys which could be used - 15 used letters x 100 numbers)

PDVerse

byrnefm wrote: »

Curious.. the routing keys are designed around An Post's sorting requirements, for reasons described many times previously. If An Post decide in the future that, say the Galway area would have an additional major postal town area, would the current Eircode routing key be split into two to suit An Post's updated needs? Otherwise, over time, Eircode would deviate from their usage of the defined routing keys.

Now, I'm not expecting that that would happen anytime soon but was wondering if it was envisaged that additional / new keys could be added over time.

(Incidentally there is a lot of spare keys which could be used - 15 used letters x 100 numbers)

The expectation is this requirement won't arise in the lifetime of anyone involved in the design team.

Curly Judge

oscarBravo wrote: »

Seriously?".

Yes ....very seriously.
Because of their size and importance to online transactions Pay Pal will have a very big influence on how addresses tie up with credit worthiness.
It'll be only a matter of time before the incompetence of the Eircode design...and An Post's phaffing about to preserve it's bailiwick.... leads someone being refused credit, insurance cover or be regarded as a security risk by on-line agencies.
Stay tooned!

oscarBravo wrote: »

Of course it can be validated.".

It is technically incapable of being validated.

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's called "geodirectory".

Does this geodirectory go back to before the foundation of the state?
My original address does.... and I haven't been made aware of the rational for changing it, who changed it, when it was changed or even that it was being changed.
I'd call that fairly arbitrary......wouldn't you?

PDVerse

Eircode Routing Keys -
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ObFwqV2vtigkclpjea3sUHNhUuw&usp=sharing

Data is available as Open Data, based on Small Area data and ECAD Q216.

plodder

It's fairly clear from the ECAD product guide that the postal address is to all intents and purposes the official address in Eircode. Other addresses are regarded as aliases, only to be used for matching purposes. It's all very well to say continue using the address you've always used, except when you run into problems like where a credit card transaction is declined or as was mentioned before, an airline refuses to take a booking from you.

PDVerse

plodder wrote: »

It's fairly clear from the ECAD product guide that the postal address is to all intents and purposes the official address in Eircode. Other addresses are regarded as aliases, only to be used for matching purposes. It's all very well to say continue using the address you've always used, except when you run into problems like where a credit card transaction is declined or as was mentioned before, an airline refuses to take a booking from you.

The Geographical Address has recently been added to ECAD.

Some companies insist that you enter your address exactly as it appears on a Utility bill, even if it says "Road H" because the connection occurred before the estate was named. That's just implementation. Some companies will ask for an address that exactly matches the ECAD, some will have solutions that can handle "local use" variations. Eircode facilitates a solution to this problem, without it no one could be expected to implement a solution to handle "local use" variations. You're trying to categorise the solution as the problem.

Sam Russell

PDVerse wrote: »

Eircode Routing Keys -
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ObFwqV2vtigkclpjea3sUHNhUuw&usp=sharing

Data is available as Open Data, based on Small Area data and ECAD Q216.

Look at routing codes P51 and P61. Notice anything odd?

plodder

PDVerse wrote: »

The Geographical Address has recently been added to ECAD.

Ok, wasn't aware of that. That improves the situation somewhat and if companies use that address instead, maybe the problem will go away.

Some companies insist that you enter your address exactly as it appears on a Utility bill, even if it says "Road H" because the connection occurred before the estate was named. That's just implementation. Some companies will ask for an address that exactly matches the ECAD, some will have solutions that can handle "local use" variations. Eircode facilitates a solution to this problem, without it no one could be expected to implement a solution to handle "local use" variations. You're trying to categorise the solution as the problem.

Implementation can be a problem. If a utility enters an address with a mistake it can be very difficult to correct it later.

But, the fact remains that the poster was able to use his familiar address before, but can't now. Anyway, I think adding the geographic address was the right thing to do. It shows you can actually do things that An Post might prefer you didn't

PDVerse

Sam Russell wrote: »

Look at routing codes P51 and P61. Notice anything odd?

Yes, P51 is split and surrounds P61.

Sam Russell

PDVerse wrote: »

Yes, P51 is split and surrounds P61.

It does not surround P61, but you get the idea. What were they on the day that was sanctioned?

Carawaystick

H23 is noncontinuous also.
Why are the islands at Skerries not in any routing code, while the Blaskets and Inistrahull are?

PDVerse

Carawaystick wrote: »

H23 is noncontinuous also.
Why are the islands at Skerries not in any routing code, while the Blaskets and Inistrahull are?

Islands off Skerries just weren't in the Small Area dataset, and there are no Eircode buildings on the Islands.

H23 should be continuous, thanks for reporting. I'll update the maps at the end of the week with edits.

oscarBravo

Curly Judge wrote: »

Yes ....very seriously.
Because of their size and importance to online transactions Pay Pal will have a very big influence on how addresses tie up with credit worthiness.
It'll be only a matter of time before the incompetence of the Eircode design...and An Post's phaffing about to preserve it's bailiwick.... leads someone being refused credit, insurance cover or be regarded as a security risk by on-line agencies.
Stay tooned!

That's not identity theft.

It is technically incapable of being validated.

I validate Eircodes literally every day.

Does this geodirectory go back to before the foundation of the state?
My original address does.... and I haven't been made aware of the rational for changing it, who changed it, when it was changed or even that it was being changed.
I'd call that fairly arbitrary......wouldn't you?

Irish place names are arbitrary. If you live in a town at the north-west corner of Clew Bay, is your address Mulranny, Mulranney or Mallaranny?

There's no officially correct answer. What there is is a database of canonical postal addresses. So if someone insists that their address is "Mallarany" or something, fine; but the closest thing we have to an actual official list of people's addresses says that it's "Mulranny".

clewbays

PDVerse wrote: »

Eircode Routing Keys -
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ObFwqV2vtigkclpjea3sUHNhUuw&usp=sharing

Data is available as Open Data, based on Small Area data and ECAD Q216.

Thanks, are those boundaries only defined by small areas or did An Post provide digitised information on the postal towns?

PDVerse

clewbays wrote: »

Thanks, are those boundaries only defined by small areas or did An Post provide digitised information on the postal towns?

There are approximately 18,000 small areas. 1,300 needed to be split as they contained buildings that were in different Routing Keys. Small areas were split by drawing around the ECAD buildings (rather arbitrarily).

Sam Russell

PDVerse wrote: »

There are approximately 18,000 small areas. 1,300 needed to be split as they contained buildings that were in different Routing Keys. Small areas were split by drawing around the ECAD buildings (rather arbitrarily).

Says it all.

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Says it all.

It doesn't say much of anything, never mind "it all". Routing keys were never designed to be geographic areas. Showing geographic areas that represent routing keys is always going to require some arbitrary decisions as to where to draw lines, because the idea of a border between routing keys is arbitrary anyway.

Sam Russell

PDVerse wrote: »

Yes, P51 is split and surrounds P61.

Would it not make sense to renumber the smaller P51 around Lismore to be P52?

antoinolachtnai

The more I read, the more obvious it is. The whole design process was captured by An Post. An Post got to dictate their requirements based on their own business needs. The design document states as much in an appendix which lists out An Post's ''requirements' which are really more like demands. These requirements define almost every single aspect of the code.

(The sarcastic hypothetical newspaper article above gives an idea how how this political power might have been brought to bear.)

This made political sense, but it does not make any technical or business sense, because An Post is not and will not be particularly significant in terms of volume of deliveries to homes - there are other organisations that deliver services to homes just as frequently - and there are many other organization that have much higher value deliveries. The reality is that An Post is in terminal decline, and that the daily flat postal service on which the code is oriented will not survive the decade.

This was the political reality of what happened. I am not knocking anybody involved, because they had to cope with the political reality and build something that fitted in with that political reality.

But the post-hoc technical justification is a bit tiring. The idea that the design was a response to the use of red envelopes on Valentine's day is very hard to take without feeling that one's intelligence is being insulted. Equally hard to stomach is the proposition that manual sorting at routing code level is critically important (and so there had to be a routing code), whilst manual sorting at the local level is not important at all (and so the code at that level was randomised).

sondagefaux

You're surprised that a postcode was designed to suit the universal public service obligation postal company?

Under that obligation, An Post is obliged to have a mail delivery service at least once per day (working days) to every postal address in the state. It's not going to die out, since it's a legal obligation.

Eircodes aren't just useful for An Post: as several of the newer courier companies have recently stated, Eircodes are making their lives much easier and have facilitated efficiencies which have allowed them to expand their operations.

Given the increase in online sales and consequent increase in courier deliveries, Eircodes are going to be increasingly important.

Sam Russell

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The more I read, the more obvious it is. The whole design process was captured by An Post. An Post got to dictate their requirements based on their own business needs. The design document states as much in an appendix which lists out An Post's ''requirements' which are really more like demands. These requirements define almost every single aspect of the code.

(The sarcastic hypothetical newspaper article above gives an idea how how this political power might have been brought to bear.)

This made political sense, but it does not make any technical or business sense, because An Post is not and will not be particularly significant in terms of volume of deliveries to homes - there are other organisations that deliver services to homes just as frequently - and there are many other organization that have much higher value deliveries. The reality is that An Post is in terminal decline, and that the daily flat postal service on which the code is oriented will not survive the decade.

This was the political reality of what happened. I am not knocking anybody involved, because they had to cope with the political reality and build something that fitted in with that political reality.

But the post-hoc technical justification is a bit tiring. The idea that the design was a response to the use of red envelopes on Valentine's day is very hard to take without feeling that one's intelligence is being insulted. Equally hard to stomach is the proposition that manual sorting at routing code level is critically important (and so there had to be a routing code), whilst manual sorting at the local level is not important at all (and so the code at that level was randomised).

I agree with the above, particularly the bold bit.

It is obvious to me that the routing code should cover about equal populations of about 1,000 addresses which would equate to about 2,000 routing codes. Coincidentally, that is about the number of An Post postal towns. It is about the number of codes that could be squeezed into a 3 character code of X99 format but if you allow XX9 or even X9X as well, then it fits quite easily.

When the redesign happens, they may go this route (pardon the pun).