Work problems- Forced out

MFlack2012

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Lots of people are told when they can take their holidays. In fact in say the building industry it was always the first 2 weeks in August and tough after that. If as some of your post seem to imply other staff are being treated differently then your option is the make a complaint under the grievance procedure.

Your other option is to take unpaid leave for holidays and also take paid holidays in July.

Yes, she has said that it's seniority based. But there is always going to be someone more senior than me, so I don't get the option. The Supervisor is a family member of the boss so she and her friend get their options without having to give notice.

I didn't know if taking unpaid leave would be applicable. The boss wouldn't allow me to take unpaid leave But I may query this. Thank you for your help.

fin12

Any place I've ever worked I could tell the employer the days I needed off and it wasn't a problem, I find it strange are you supposed to go up to an employer and ask when you can go on holiday??? I just started a new job in January and booked holiday in July and told my employer the dates and there was no problem. That employer is a bully, she is probably just being ackward for the sake of it. The only time I had to check with an employer was it ok before I booked something was when I was asked to go on holidays with a fellow colleague, so we would have both needed time off at the same time. Most places would have a calendar or a roster up marked when other people are on holidays so obviously you would avoid those dates. I would actually try and find out who the other people are on holidays at the same time just to see if she is lying about that.

Stheno

fin12 wrote: »

Any place I've ever worked I could tell the employer the days I needed off and it wasn't a problem, I find it strange are you supposed to go up to an employer and ask when you can go on holiday??? I just started a new job in January and booked holiday in July and told my employer the dates and there was no problem. That employer is a bully, she is probably just being ackward for the sake of it. The only time I had to check with an employer was it ok before I booked something was when I was asked to go on holidays with a fellow colleague, so we would have both needed time off at the same time. Most places would have a calendar or a roster up marked when other people are on holidays so obviously you would avoid those dates. I would actually try and find out who the other people are on holidays at the same time just to see if she is lying about that.

I'd say 80% of employers have restrictions on when people take holiday in my experience

davo10

MFlack2012 wrote: »

Yes, she has said that it's seniority based. But there is always going to be someone more senior than me, so I don't get the option. The Supervisor is a family member of the boss so she and her friend get their options without having to give notice.

I didn't know if taking unpaid leave would be applicable. The boss wouldn't allow me to take unpaid leave But I may query this. Thank you for your help.

Not seniority, it's length of service. Most small business employers give those who have worked the longest first preference on leave dates. This is very fair. Others operate a first come first serve policy, in your case you are there much less time than the others and you only recently booked your holiday while others had booked a long time ago.

Mrs OBumble

OP, because you are going to your doctor tomorrow, I would guess you will get signed out for several weeks of sick leave. Maybe even right though until late July if you are stressed enough. This will most probably qualify you for illness benefit, and I think that on this you are entitled to leave the country for a holiday for up to two weeks.

Even if this doesn't happen, because you are on casual dockets you may get away with just putting down that you aren't getting any days anymore. Does the employer have to sign the docket each week, and say that they don't have any work for you? Is it actually the boss who does the signing, or the payroll person - what are they likely to be willing to sign?

The others are right: you always need to ASK for leave (not demand it), and should get it APPROVED before you book stuff. Saying to an employer that dates are non-negotiable pretty much screams "I'm a self-entitled *******".

All the best with finding more suitable employment, which actually makes use of your qualifications. I would have thought that even homecare (always looking for staff) would be a better fit than early-childhood education.

davo10

fin12 wrote: »

Any place I've ever worked I could tell the employer the days I needed off and it wasn't a problem, I find it strange are you supposed to go up to an employer and ask when you can go on holiday??? I just started a new job in January and booked holiday in July and told my employer the dates and there was no problem. That employer is a bully, she is probably just being ackward for the sake of it. The only time I had to check with an employer was it ok before I booked something was when I was asked to go on holidays with a fellow colleague, so we would have both needed time off at the same time. Most places would have a calendar or a roster up marked when other people are on holidays so obviously you would avoid those dates. I would actually try and find out who the other people are on holidays at the same time just to see if she is lying about that.

What exactly do you find strange about having to ask an employer about leave dates?

Who else is off on the requested dates makes absolutely no difference, even if there was no one else off the employer is not required to give the op those dates.

Mrs OBumble

fin12 wrote: »

Any place I've ever worked I could tell the employer the days I needed off and it wasn't a problem, I find it strange are you supposed to go up to an employer and ask when you can go on holiday??? I just started a new job in January and booked holiday in July and told my employer the dates and there was no problem. That employer is a bully, she is probably just being ackward for the sake of it. The only time I had to check with an employer was it ok before I booked something was when I was asked to go on holidays with a fellow colleague, so we would have both needed time off at the same time. Most places would have a calendar or a roster up marked when other people are on holidays so obviously you would avoid those dates. I would actually try and find out who the other people are on holidays at the same time just to see if she is lying about that.

Your experiences aren't typical.

In the most extreme cases (building industry, some factories), holiday close-down dates are advised at the start of the year. Everyone goes on holiday then, and only then.

In many industries - and certainly in demand-driven and ratio-controlled industries like early childhood education - only a certain proportion of staff can be off at any time, to ensure that adequate staffing is maintained.

pablo128

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Your experiences aren't typical.

In the most extreme cases (building industry, some factories), holiday close-down dates are advised at the start of the year. Everyone goes on holiday then, and only then.

I think you're off the mark there. Yes, the likes of the building trade take their fortnight off in August, but workers still have a further 10/11 days to take off during the year.

MFlack2012

fin12 wrote: »

Any place I've ever worked I could tell the employer the days I needed off and it wasn't a problem, I find it strange are you supposed to go up to an employer and ask when you can go on holiday??? I just started a new job in January and booked holiday in July and told my employer the dates and there was no problem. That employer is a bully, she is probably just being ackward for the sake of it. The only time I had to check with an employer was it ok before I booked something was when I was asked to go on holidays with a fellow colleague, so we would have both needed time off at the same time. Most places would have a calendar or a roster up marked when other people are on holidays so obviously you would avoid those dates. I would actually try and find out who the other people are on holidays at the same time just to see if she is lying about that.

I didn't used to have too, it's only this year, this has become a problem. And only since all the other problems have come up. I would have thought that a place of business would have to advise staff of when you can/can't take holidays e.g when other people are out. Otherwise there may be only one week left that doesn't suit you and other arrangments might have to be made. As in my case of annual leave last year when I was forced to take them within less than 24 hours (more like 12). I have asked the other staff and nobody have said anything about July. Bullying is exactly what she's been warned about in the past.

davo10 wrote: »

Not seniority, it's length of service. Most small business employers give those who have worked the longest first preference on leave dates. This is very fair. Others operate a first come first serve policy, in your case you are there much less time than the others and you only recently booked your holiday while others had booked a long time ago.

No it's not length of service. My contract firmly states Seniority. This is my problem. There is always going to be someone more senior than me and there longer, so I will never get the choice. And even if that stage does come up, it'll be changed and it'll be because I'm only part-time.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

OP, because you are going to your doctor tomorrow, I would guess you will get signed out for several weeks of sick leave. Maybe even right though until late July if you are stressed enough. This will most probably qualify you for illness benefit, and I think that on this you are entitled to leave the country for a holiday for up to two weeks.

Even if this doesn't happen, because you are on casual dockets you may get away with just putting down that you aren't getting any days anymore. Does the employer have to sign the docket each week, and say that they don't have any work for you? Is it actually the boss who does the signing, or the payroll person - what are they likely to be willing to sign?

The others are right: you always need to ASK for leave (not demand it), and should get it APPROVED before you book stuff. Saying to an employer that dates are non-negotiable pretty much screams "I'm a self-entitled *******".

All the best with finding more suitable employment, which actually makes use of your qualifications. I would have thought that even homecare (always looking for staff) would be a better fit than early-childhood education.

I am thinking this may also be the case. He has had issues with me working through my studies when my illness came up a few years ago. I was very ill due to stress and had to take a year off college. This might very well be the option he'll give.

My employer has to sign the dockets every week and she's already caused problems for another staff member in the Social welfare so she won't help me out by doing that. This employer would actually write to them and say it's all my fault.

I understand that I have to ask for leave and would never demand it. I just knew this was going to be a problem and so advised her that I couldn't change my dates, hoping that she would take this into consideration and not be her normal self about it.

Unfortunately the health sector isn't an option for me due to back strain and I adore working with Children. I hope to now get an office job somewhere. Many thanks.

davo10

MFlack2012 wrote: »

I didn't used to have too, it's only this year, this has become a problem. And only since all the other problems have come up. I would have thought that a place of business would have to advise staff of when you can/can't take holidays e.g when other people are out. Otherwise there may be only one week left that doesn't suit you and other arrangments might have to be made. As in my case of annual leave last year when I was forced to take them within less than 24 hours (more like 12). I have asked the other staff and nobody have said anything about July. Bullying is exactly what she's been warned about in the past.




No it's not length of service. My contract firmly states Seniority. This is my problem. There is always going to be someone more senior than me and there longer, so I will never get the choice. And even if that stage does come up, it'll be changed and it'll be because I'm only part-time.



I am thinking this may also be the case. He has had issues with me working through my studies when my illness came up a few years ago. I was very ill due to stress and had to take a year off college. This might very well be the option he'll give.

My employer has to sign the dockets every week and she's already caused problems for another staff member in the Social welfare so she won't help me out by doing that. This employer would actually write to them and say it's all my fault.

I understand that I have to ask for leave and would never demand it. I just knew this was going to be a problem and so advised her that I couldn't change my dates, hoping that she would take this into consideration and not be her normal self about it.

Unfortunately the health sector isn't an option for me due to back strain and I adore working with Children. I hope to now get an office job somewhere. Many thanks.

Op, the law on this is clear. You have no entitlement to take annual leave in dates which suit you only. Again, they are at your employers discretion, that is not an example of your boss bullying you, it is your boss following following the terms of the OWTA. They do not have to advise you about their policy regarding seniority, that is just for convenience and a reward for those who have been there longer, they get first choice. Yes you will always be the newest person there, until someone newer is employed and you will have preference on dates before that person. You can't jump to the top of the que.

You booked the holiday and then told your boss you wouldn't be there on those dates, that was wrong, if every employer allowed employees to do this it would be impossible to roster.

davo10

MFlack2012 wrote: »

I understand that I have to ask for leave and would never demand it. I just knew this was going to be a problem and so advised her that I couldn't change my dates, hoping that she would take this into consideration and not be her normal self about it.
.

Can you see the problem with this statement?

groovyg

As others have said I think you should look for another job. If your primary qualification is in nursing you'd definitely be able to get some hours in that area.

nikkibikki

MFlack2012 wrote:

I am working 20 hours per week, every week. It is a very unhappy working environment. Although I adore the girls and Children, I feel dread going in each day and feel like I just can't do it anymore. I am feeling very depressed with each issue that arises. I have heard that you don't get paid for 9 weeks if you voluntarily resign, and this is what I'm worried about. I am actually under too much stress there anyway and will be seeking medical advice tomorrow, so hopefully my Doctor might be able to suggest something.

In that case, you need to ensure your annual leave is approved before booking any holiday. It's your problem that you didn't do this, not your employers. This often means booking annual leave months in advance, I would have booked my summer holidays off every January as soon as the calendar was open. For my wedding, I booked 3weeks off for it as soon as we set the date which was probably a ye and a half before hand, that was allowed to be booked so far in advance as it was an exceptional circumstance.

This aside, if you genuinely feel like you have been victimised or bullied, it is slightly possible you may have a case for constructive dismissal. It's very hard to prove and it's a lengthy process from what I know. Again, NERA should have some advise on this.

MFlack2012 wrote:

I understand that I have to ask for leave and would never demand it. I just knew this was going to be a problem and so advised her that I couldn't change my dates, hoping that she would take this into consideration and not be her normal self about it.

OP, you have demanded it. Well you've tried to but your employer isn't standing for it. They don't have to let you have dates that suit you. The demand could possibly have gotten your employers back up. You are supposed to request annual leave not tell your employer when you are taking it.

Mrs OBumble

MFlack2012 wrote: »

Unfortunately the health sector isn't an option for me due to back strain and I adore working with Children. I hope to now get an office job somewhere.

It doesn't matter how much you adore children. If you're not a qualified early-childhood teacher then you are basically an entry level worker, likely to get only the worst jobs, casual hours and poor treatment. And the time will come eventually when you simply will not be able to work in the sector at all without a suitable qualification. I'm not sure where Ireland is up to with this, but it's a trend that's happening worldwide.

Best of luck with the job hunting - maybe your nursing qual must make something like medical secretary an option.

CruelCoin

fin12 wrote: »

Any place I've ever worked I could tell the employer the days I needed off and it wasn't a problem, I find it strange are you supposed to go up to an employer and ask when you can go on holiday??? I just started a new job in January and booked holiday in July and told my employer the dates and there was no problem. That employer is a bully, she is probably just being ackward for the sake of it. The only time I had to check with an employer was it ok before I booked something was when I was asked to go on holidays with a fellow colleague, so we would have both needed time off at the same time. Most places would have a calendar or a roster up marked when other people are on holidays so obviously you would avoid those dates. I would actually try and find out who the other people are on holidays at the same time just to see if she is lying about that.

You're probably either working in a large organistion where cover is easy to manage, or you're not doing work vital to the functioning of the company.

In an important role or in a smaller company, such as a creche for example, timing can be crucially important.

nikkibikki

Mrs OBumble wrote:

It doesn't matter how much you adore children. If you're not a qualified early-childhood teacher then you are basically an entry level worker, likely to get only the worst jobs, casual hours and poor treatment. And the time will come eventually when you simply will not be able to work in the sector at all without a suitable qualification. I'm not sure where Ireland is up to with this, but it's a trend that's happening worldwide.

AFAIK you need at least FETAC Level 5 in Childcare to work in a creche now.

MFlack2012

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It doesn't matter how much you adore children. If you're not a qualified early-childhood teacher then you are basically an entry level worker, likely to get only the worst jobs, casual hours and poor treatment. And the time will come eventually when you simply will not be able to work in the sector at all without a suitable qualification. I'm not sure where Ireland is up to with this, but it's a trend that's happening worldwide.

Best of luck with the job hunting - maybe your nursing qual must make something like medical secretary an option.

Actually my Degree qualifies me to work as a Childcare Worker and I have the relevant Early-childhood Qual's also. My degree is actually a level 7 BA Degree, which is above and far beyond the level 5 and 6 Early Childhood Certs that I also have. There are many, however, who do not have the qualifications within the company. I agree with you on that one.

Thank you, yes I am applying for those too as an option.

wytch

If you are worried about a nine week wait on social welfare in the case of you resigning, could you not just turn up for work when you return from your holiday and then either carry on working or be sacked?

If you are sacked I imagine your entitlements/payments start straight away.

Irish_Elect_Eng

wytch wrote: »

If you are worried about a nine week wait on social welfare in the case of you resigning, could you not just turn up for work when you return from your holiday and then either carry on working or be sacked?

If you are sacked I imagine your entitlements/payments start straight away.

Not turning up for work for two weeks when holidays have been refused would likely be considered termination of contract without notice by the OP.

runawaybishop

The 9 week period can be waived if a suitable reason for leaving is presented, I doubt having to go on holiday would be deemed suitable though.

MFlack2012

Just an update to say that I went to my local Social Welfare offices and the lady was exceptionally nice once I'd explained everything, insisting on me leaving the job immediately. She stated that 'Some bosses just get a kick out of having you under their control and go power mad', and 'it's not the first we've heard of it'. The 9 week period was thankfully waved and my mental health is improving, let alone my physical health. Although it was very sad to leave the job, I was not the only one that has walked since and I doubt will be the last. Thank you for all your help and I can hopefully move on, enjoy my holiday and find something better in the very near future.

Mrs OBumble

Good move OP.

It may be that the welfare inspector has heard the same story about exactly the same employer many times before. Over time, they do start to see trends.

MFlack2012

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Good move OP.

It may be that the welfare inspector has heard the same story about exactly the same employer many times before. Over time, they do start to see trends.

It seems that it has happened before, numerous times. Many thanks

TallGlass

I always advise everyone. For your own health and sanity. Keep away from childcare. Only ever heard bad things and sadly always management.

To anyone thinking about childcare as a career, keep away.