Howth Tram to Return

Seanmk1

Feasibility study on e-tenders today.

Description: Consultancy services in respect of Feasibility Study on reinstatement of Howth Tram
Buyer: Fingal County Council

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=100108&B=&PS=1&PP=

Del.Monte

Seanmk1 wrote: »

Feasibility study on e-tenders today.

Description: Consultancy services in respect of Feasibility Study on reinstatement of Howth Tram
Buyer: Fingal County Council

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=100108&B=&PS=1&PP=

Is this the same body that's going to shoehorn the Fry Model Railway into a cottage at Malahide? Incidentally the tender documents don't seem to be available on that link. It will never happen - you heard it here first.

Del.Monte

Here's something to look at while you dream of trams rattling up and down the Hill of Howth.

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/submission/CVQ-1202

and a pleasant reminder of what CIE and the Irish government blithely threw away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrEmvTwkbNY

The Hill of Howth Tram was one of the big three things for locals and tourists to do in Dublin along with the Nelson Pillar and the Zoo. At least we have the Guinness Tourist Trap Storehouse. :rolleyes:

ClovenHoof

I think it is a brilliant idea. Would be a colossal success. The right of way is all in tact for the most part.

Just because CIE killed it off, does not mean we should emulate their pathological stupidity and negativity for all eternity.

tricky D

This is waste of time and money (except for the consultants) for 3 main reasons:

There'll be no room beside Howth Station for a terminus due to development works beginning on the old Teeling site (now Dog Groomers/Garden Centre/Beshoff Motors/Bosco's car repair shed. Those businesses are getting the heave-ho in the next few months.

Even if the above was somehow magically solved, the bridge would need to be rebuilt at a greater height.

Lastly there's no way there'll be enough demand for it and almost none during winter. The 88 bus which replaced the tram, is long gone, partially replaced by a 31B service, which at first went around the hill to Howth Station. There wasn't even enough demand for that so now it only goes to the Summit. They did try to bring back a reduced 88 route as the 31C which was quickly axed due to lack of demand. Any one who travels around the hill often (me) knows that the 31A/B buses are almost empty for most the hill route. If it was to be only a tourist attraction the cost/benefit would be very negative.


I wish I could get a consultant's fee for that.

ClovenHoof

This is a tourist project, not a commuter one.

Secondly, with the right marketing and imagination it could be huge attraction.

FCC are not tendering for a time machine or their own Fluas.

Del.Monte

Finally located the tender documents and I'm none the wiser. It will be a nice little earner for some Irish or UK tourism consultants. Of course, they could contact the likes of the Festiniog Railway to see how they approached the reconstruction of the Welsh Highland Rly and seek some advice.But sadly, no, much better to get a firm of consultants and end up with something like Blennerville or the Clonakilty Model Railway Village.

McAlban

Would love to see it. But I think it's Just more money into Aecom's pockets...

end of the road

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Just because CIE killed it off, does not mean we should emulate their pathological stupidity and negativity for all eternity.

i agree but it's easier said then done unfortunately.

Banjoxed

Quick! Quick! Think of all the tired and hungry tourists deprived of a cycleway that we haven't thought of since 1959!

Grandeeod

Banjoxed wrote: »

Quick! Quick! Think of all the tired and hungry tourists deprived of a cycleway that we haven't thought of since 1959!

Well if Galway and Mayo want their railway, we want our feckin tram! Oh, and a greenway alongside it too.

McAlban

The Parts of the Alignment that weren't already converted into the R105, are now either Shared Cycle/Footpaths, or have houses built on it.

ClovenHoof

McAlban wrote: »

The Parts of the Alignment that weren't already converted into the R105, are now either Shared Cycle/Footpaths, or have houses built on it.

A new alignment at these locations is easier with a tram than heavy rail.

Del.Monte

Just build an interpretative centre in Howth station, with multi-media audio visuals and talking heads and leave it that. Even that would give the consultants and their friends an excuse to run up big bills. :rolleyes:

ted1

Del.Monte wrote: »

Here's something to look at while you dream of trams rattling up and down the Hill of Howth.

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/submission/CVQ-1202

and a pleasant reminder of what CIE and the Irish government blithely threw away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrEmvTwkbNY

The Hill of Howth Tram was one of the big three things for locals and tourists to do in Dublin along with the Nelson Pillar and the Zoo. At least we have the Guinness Tourist Trap Storehouse. :rolleyes:

While not technically Dublin the bray head cable car also belongs on the list

ted1

tricky D wrote: »

This is waste of time and money (except for the consultants) for 3 main reasons:

There'll be no room beside Howth Station for a terminus due to development works beginning on the old Teeling site (now Dog Groomers/Garden Centre/Beshoff Motors/Bosco's car repair shed. Those businesses are getting the heave-ho in the next few months.

Even if the above was somehow magically solved, the bridge would need to be rebuilt at a greater height.

Lastly there's no way there'll be enough demand for it and almost none during winter. The 88 bus which replaced the tram, is long gone, partially replaced by a 31B service, which at first went around the hill to Howth Station. There wasn't even enough demand for that so now it only goes to the Summit. They did try to bring back a reduced 88 route as the 31C which was quickly axed due to lack of demand. Any one who travels around the hill often (me) knows that the 31A/B buses are almost empty for most the hill route. If it was to be only a tourist attraction the cost/benefit would be very negative.


I wish I could get a consultant's fee for that.

Look at Lisbon and how they have integrated old trams with new trams and finicolars. Toursits love them and from that view alone could make if feasible

Grandeeod

ted1 wrote: »

While not technically Dublin the bray head cable car also belongs on the list

At least CIE weren't responsible for closing that.:D

Atlantic Dawn

Would it not cost tens of millions to reinstate for a completely unknown tourist market? What they should first do to research the market is buy a fleet of 20 of these incredibly slow and annoying tourist mini buses that delay traffic and run them around the summit first to check demand...




Also did this same Fingal County Council not give planning permission recently for the complete developement for all lands from the railway station to the nearest level crossing, surely they are just burning good money with this report?

Del.Monte

Grandeeod wrote: »

At least CIE weren't responsible for closing that.:D

Bet that pissed them off.

tricky D

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Also did this same Fingal County Council not give planning permission recently for the complete developement for all lands from the railway station to the nearest level crossing, surely they are just burning good money with this report?

Yes planning permission (re)granted for the site from 53°23'20.21"N 6° 4'31.34"W to Baltray tennis courts at about 53°23'23.68"N 6° 4'57.39"W, so there's no room for a terminus pretty much with or without a siding unless it's built on the reinstated bridge somehow.

McAlban

tricky D wrote: »

Yes planning permission (re)granted for the site from 53°23'20.21"N 6° 4'31.34"W to Baltray tennis courts at about 53°23'23.68"N 6° 4'57.39"W, so there's no room for a terminus pretty much with or without a siding unless it's built on the reinstated bridge somehow.

There was never a Terminus there in the original Tramway.It was Mudflats. The Bridge may not be high enough for the DB buses going through howth village however.

If they had sense they would try and tie it into the national transport museum in Deerpark.

Prague has a fantastic Historical Tram Tour you can do. However... They still have a lot of their original tram lines...

tricky D

McAlban wrote: »

There was never a Terminus there in the original Tramway.It was Mudflats.

The terminus was there to the west of the 6° 4'31.34"W north/south line which is the eastern limit of the new development. It was just south of the signal box and extended further west to merge with the main rail line. This is viewable on the OSI HISTORIC 25" view [ http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,727937,739391,12,9 ]. The platforms were east of the signal box but wholly in what is now the lands being developed - so no room for a new/reinstated terminus. The mudflats were further west as can be seen in the map.

McAlban wrote: »

If they had sense they would try and tie it into the national transport museum in Deerpark.

Now there's something which could be fantastic if the powers that be would give it decent funding. Currently it's a sad ramshackle place despite the huge effort and dedication of those who work there.

Other issues include ownership of parts of the bridge approach from the west side of the bridge (where the Dog House is). Somewhat oddly the southern wall of the approach (the bit behind the ad hoarding on the left of your photo) is owned by the house to the south (they have a stairway from the back yard up to the deck. The rest of the deck is owned by CIE but below is owned or leased at the very least by the Wrights.

tricky D

Fwiw pic of the old tram master's cottage though the sign calls them electric cars!

Grandeeod

tricky D wrote: »

The rest of the deck is owned by CIE.

That's it then. The project is doomed!:D

Sam Russell

Could they run the tram from Howth summit to as far as Howth Junction instead of the Dart? Just a thought - could add a few extra stops.

Grandeeod

Sam Russell wrote: »

Could they run the tram from Howth summit to as far as Howth Junction instead of the Dart? Just a thought - could add a few extra stops.

I honestly couldn't see Howth Junction being the start of a "tourist" project.

Personally speaking, based on the original route and its current state/use, I think a straight forward up and down to the summit starting in the area around Howth train station would be the most economically sound bet.

savagethegoat

the trouble is with the dead hand of Officialdom involved, it will fall between stools. The obvious thing to do I think from an Enthusiasts point of view, is to create a kind of Snaefell Mountain Rly operation with replica cars. Officialdom no doubt will want to run LUAS type vehicles to full spec costing a fortune.

Never going to happen. (imo)

Sam Russell

If it is purely a replica, tourist venture where speed is irrelevant, then it could easily work.

webwayz

I think it is a good idea, it would be great to even partially restore it and have a link Dart Station to Summit. I am not sure how extending it to the national transport museum would work, i read a suggestion of a horse drawn tram along the waterfront as an idea, I think this would be very unambitious, where as a trip up to the summit would be a real experience.

Sam Russell

webwayz wrote: »

I think it is a good idea, it would be great to even partially restore it and have a link Dart Station to Summit. I am not sure how extending it to the national transport museum would work, i read a suggestion of a horse drawn tram along the waterfront as an idea, I think this would be very unambitious, where as a trip up to the summit would be a real experience.

--- but tough on the horse.

webwayz

Sam Russell wrote: »

--- but tough on the horse.

Agreed Sam, hard on the horse, the waterfront idea was mooted to be a small tram (mentioned in the Irish Times website article - Ding! Ding! Old Number 9 tram may roll again in Howth).

I think it has to be the real thing, electric and up to the summit, something to do in Dublin, and a reason to go to Howth.

Grandeeod

webwayz wrote: »

Agreed Sam, hard on the horse, the waterfront idea was mooted to be a small tram (mentioned in the Irish Times website article - Ding! Ding! Old Number 9 tram may roll again in Howth).

I think it has to be the real thing, electric and up to the summit, something to do in Dublin, and a reason to go to Howth.

Beshoff Bros. are a reason to go to Howth.:D

whisky_galore

tricky D wrote: »

Fwiw pic of the old tram master's cottage though the sign calls them electric cars!

I think tramway employees would call them just that, like some BE staff still call a bus a 'car'.

Sam Russell

whisky_galore wrote: »

I think tramway employees would call them just that, like some BE staff still call a bus a 'car'.

Particularly the French ones.

[It is just my schoolboy French coming out]

vg88

An update http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/howth-residents-in-favour-of-reinstating-trams-1.2820659

Sam Russell

How many trams will they have? Just the No. 9?

savagethegoat

not in my lifetime.

Del.Monte

Sam Russell wrote: »

How many trams will they have? Just the No. 9?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_of_Howth_Tramway

There are four preserved Hill of Howth trams but I shouldn't imagine that any apart from No.9 will be available - CIE couldn't get rid of them quick enough.

railer201

There is also the not too small matter of a housing estate having since been built over a significant portion of the alignment from Howth to the Summit. Ref Google Maps.

Hollister11

railer201 wrote: »

There is also the not too small matter of a housing estate having since been built over a significant portion of the alignment from Howth to the Summit. Ref Google Maps.

Which estate?

tricky D

No estates in the way. Route was maintained between Howth Station and the Summit as a Right of Way.

railer201

There is a route still there to the Summit ok., but the old alignment has disappeared in the vicinity of Grace O'Malley/Balkhill Estates, approximately midway along Grace O'Malley Drive up to the junction of Balkhill/Balglass Road. In addition the tramway bridge across to Howth Station was removed decades ago.

Grandeeod

railer201 wrote: »

There is a route still there to the Summit ok., but the old alignment has disappeared in the vicinity of Grace O'Malley/Balkhill Estates, approximately midway along Grace O'Malley Drive up to the junction of Balkhill/Balglass Road. In addition the tramway bridge across to Howth Station was removed decades ago.

Its certainly a big gap between the DART station and Balgrass road alright.

Grandeeod

I also meant to add that I think the line crossed over Balglass road on a bridge and a short section of embankment is clearly visible in Balkhill estate near the junction with Balglass road.

Technically there are no "estates" in the way, but I know for a fact that there are two houses in the way in Balkhill estate. The right of way was protected in terms of being able to walk the route with a few slight deviations in Balkhill. But getting a tram through there these days would be problematic.

Del.Monte

Why can't they just stick up some photo storyboards in Howth station and leave it at that?

Grandeeod

Further to my last post I was feeling a bit uncomfortable as I was working from memory so I dug out my notes from 1990!:D I surveyed the line that summer.

Railer201 is indeed correct about housing estates on the original alignment. The Grace O'Malley estate was built in two phases. Phase one was built while the tram was operating and phase two was built in the 1960s after the line shut. Balkhill estate was built in the 1970s. Both estates were built over the alignment.

Harvey Normal

railer201 wrote: »

There is a route still there to the Summit ok., but the old alignment has disappeared in the vicinity of Grace O'Malley/Balkhill Estates, approximately midway along Grace O'Malley Drive up to the junction of Balkhill/Balglass Road. In addition the tramway bridge across to Howth Station was removed decades ago.

Is there a need for the bridge? The tram can start in front of the stream and cross the road.

Most of the route is still there (it's part of the walking blue, red and purple walks) - a very small part of it goes through grace o malley and balkhill park and the tram lines could be on the road there. Not much of an issue.

Harvey Normal

Also Howth takes 1M tourists a year. There's money in those hills. And trams going up em.

railer201

McAlban wrote: »

There was never a Terminus there in the original Tramway.It was Mudflats. The Bridge may not be high enough for the DB buses going through howth village however.

If they had sense they would try and tie it into the national transport museum in Deerpark.

Prague has a fantastic Historical Tram Tour you can do. However... They still have a lot of their original tram lines...

Harvey Normal wrote: »

Is there a need for the bridge? The tram can start in front of the stream and cross the road.

To meet up with the existing old alignment then the tram has to gain height as the photo shows.

Most of the route is still there (it's part of the walking blue, red and purple walks) - a very small part of it goes through grace o malley and balkhill park and the tram lines could be on the road there. Not much of an issue.

On the face of it looks possible but whether it is desirable from the residents' point of view to have a new tramway through their estates is another matter.

Grandeeod

Harvey Normal wrote: »

a very small part of it goes through grace o malley and balkhill park and the tram lines could be on the road there. Not much of an issue.

The original route that ran through where those estates are now has been completely obliterated. The very small part that you describe provides absolutely no option for a tram line whatsoever. Its a huge issue.

Harvey Normal

railer201 wrote: »

To meet up with the existing old alignment then the tram has to gain height as the photo shows.



On the face of it looks possible but whether it is desirable from the residents' point of view to have a new tramway through their estates is another matter.

Building the bridge again makes no sense. That old tram went to Sutton on what is now the dart line so had to do it, the new tram just needs to cross the road, or start across the road. There's a path there now from the harbour road - behind the bus stop - which skirts behind most of O'Malley park. That's the old tram line.

Incidentally for most of the route in which it is in the estates there's no housing on the right of the route (going up the hill). The line when it joins into the estates skirts to the eastern part of O'Malley park, for about 20 yards, and then joins up with a footpath to balkhill park where most of the housing on the right of the route is elevated above it. That's about 100 yards. After that it's all now a sandy footpath. All the way to the summit inn.

There about two houses that are troublesome if you need dual track. Just at the end of the footpath between O'Malley park and balkhill park.