Van insurance cancelled - non disclosure

Matt Markinson

Bazzy wrote: »

But if I drive a van as a painter and insured as sam and cut my neighbours grass for 20 euro at the weekend and drive my van there am i liable not to be covered as I havent disclosed myself as a gardener?

Correct, and the tax man would be very interested in the €20's

cormie

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Absolute rubbish I'd say, it's just another excuse for insurance companies to fleece customers. How many accidents have you heard about involving musicians in vans late at night? I work in the emergency service sector and in my 18yrsi can safely say I have never come across one single accident involving a van late at night and very very few accidents involving vans during daylight hours either, for that matter.

No matter what your profession, there is a level of loading by insurance companies. Remember they're in it to make as much profit as possible, they will use any excuse to get out of claims and in my mind are the biggest legalised criminal organisations ever.

Remember, nobody would insure him when he said he was a musician, it's not like they were willing to insure him but giving him hiked up prices. It can be a right pain getting quotes when you do something a little uncommon, as soon as anyone hears I want cover for furniture removal, I'm told they don't cover it. It took a lot of faffing about to get my insurance sorted and it's getting even harder I believe. I have to say though, it's definitely not fair for those paying for legit insurance to foot the bill for those not and then getting undercut by the very same people who can offer cheaper rates because their costs are so much lower.

pippip

The high value music equipment as a reason is crap, sure all they have to do is not cover that, same as builders cover and not including tools.

So basically its cause they would be driving at night?

To Elland Back

Bazzy wrote: »

But if I drive a van as a painter and insured as sam and cut my neighbours grass for 20 euro at the weekend and drive my van there am i liable not to be covered as I havent disclosed myself as a gardener?

Yes, you will have non-disclosed

Have a look at your policy schedule. It will say something along the lines of 'Use in connection with the insured's business as described in the schedule'. Anything outside of that (other than social, domestic & pleasure) and you are open to action by your insurer

pippip

To Elland Back wrote: »

Yes, you will have non-disclosed

Have a look at your policy schedule. It will say something along the lines of 'Use in connection with the insured's business as described in the schedule'. Anything outside of that (other than social, domestic & pleasure) and you are open to action by your insurer

I know its a stretch but if you were a musician paid in cash (no bank trail) how would the insurance prove you were not just playing gigs for the love of music?....pleasure.

To Elland Back

pippip wrote: »

The high value music equipment as a reason is crap, sure all they have to do is not cover that, same as builders cover and not including tools.

So basically its cause they would be driving at night?

It is not for you to decide what is or isn't a risk. If an insurer asks you what your occupation is and they don't like what you tell them, you move on to the next one. There are other more important reasons why musicians are difficult to insure. If a builder gives a colleague a lift home in his van and hits a ditch. he can sue him for €x if, for instance he breaks a finger. If a musician gives a colleague a lift home with the same outcome, that 'finger' can be worth many multiples of the builder's colleague.

The equipment is not covered under the policy anyway, but it does improve the chances of the vehicle being stolen.

Bazzy

Matt Markinson wrote: »

Correct, and the tax man would be very interested in the €20's

I dont even cut me own grass never mind the neighbours

I've been dealing with the tax man for a long time I keep my affairs in order with them they're a tough audience!!!

Kenny Logins

pippip wrote: »

The high value music equipment as a reason is crap, sure all they have to do is not cover that, same as builders cover and not including tools.

So basically its cause they would be driving at night?

To and from the pub, yes.

To Elland Back

pippip wrote: »

I know its a stretch but if you were a musician paid in cash (no bank trail) how would the insurance prove you were not just playing gigs for the love of music?....pleasure.

Not getting paid does not mean you are not a musician. If you are using the vehicle in connection with getting to and from gigs, you are a musician in the eyes of an insurer.. It may never get discovered, just like many cases of fraud.

Bazzy

To Elland Back wrote: »

Yes, you will have non-disclosed

Have a look at your policy schedule. It will say something along the lines of 'Use in connection with the insured's business as described in the schedule'. Anything outside of that (other than social, domestic & pleasure) and you are open to action by your insurer

Just playing devils advocate here

I've a friend who volunteers with a brass band and has a big yokeamebob theres no reward for her playing

If she was a plasterer and drove her instrument in the van and doesn't disclose being a musician is she liable to have it cancelled?

To Elland Back

Bazzy wrote: »

Just playing devils advocate here

I've a friend who volunteers with a brass band and has a big yokeamebob theres no reward for her playing

If she was a plasterer and drove her instrument in the van and doesn't disclose being a musician is she liable to have it cancelled?

If she is genuinely a plasterer and just drives to an 'occasional' event, without reward, I don't see a problem. If your friend is transporting other members or their equipment, yep I think there is a issue. The van is being used because of it's capabilities rather than the driver's usual means of transportation

grogi

To Elland Back wrote: »

Not getting paid does not mean you are not a musician. If you are using the vehicle in connection with getting to and from gigs, you are a musician in the eyes of an insurer.. It may never get discovered, just like many cases of fraud.

The problem is that the cancellation of the policy is solely in the hands of the insurer, there is no way to appeal it. And in this country it is like a death sentence...

grogi

To Elland Back wrote: »

The equipment is not covered under the policy anyway, but it does improve the chances of the vehicle being stolen.

Desirability of the vehicle in eyes of the thieves should not affect the TPL insurance at all. Insurer could offer only the TPL, but not Comprehensive insurance if that is an issue.

To Elland Back

grogi wrote: »

The problem is that the cancellation of the policy is solely in the hands of the insurer, there is no way to appeal it. And in this country it is like a death sentence...

You, the proposer, are the only person entering in to the contract with ALL the facts on which it is based. YOU can avoid any issues by being truthful to the other party

grogi

To Elland Back wrote: »

You, the proposer, are the only person entering in to the contract with ALL the facts on which it is based. YOU can avoid any issues by being truthful to the other party

Only God does not make mistakes, but you seem to assign this capability to people as well. There are people working for the insurer, they can be wrong.

To Elland Back

grogi wrote: »

Desirability of the vehicle in eyes of the thieves should not affect the TPL insurance at all. Insurer could offer only the TPL, but not Comprehensive insurance if that is an issue.

I've given an explanation as to why the TPL is a huge issue and dismissed desirability of the vehicle as being a minor consideration. Read my earlier post

grogi

To Elland Back wrote: »

I've given an explanation as to why the TPL is a huge issue and dismissed desirability of the vehicle as being a minor consideration. Read my earlier post

Don't need to read it - I quoted it, didn't I? ;-)

To Elland Back

grogi wrote: »

Only God does not make mistakes, but you seem to assign this capability to people as well. There are people working for the insurer, they can be wrong.

Forgetting your occupation is not a mistake

To Elland Back

grogi wrote: »

Don't need to read it - I quoted it, didn't I? ;-)

No, you quoted a different element of my post

grogi

To Elland Back wrote: »

Forgetting your occupation is not a mistake

I am not defending the OP here, but talking about the investigators, clerks etc. working for the insurer. They might make a mistake, a clerical one for instance, and a policy got cancelled. No way to appeal this decision...

To Elland Back

grogi wrote: »

I am not defending the OP here, but talking about the investigators, clerks etc. working for the insurer. They might make a mistake, a clerical one for instance, and a policy got cancelled. No way to appeal this decision...

The Ombudsman's door is always open and heavily weighted in favour of the policyholder. But you are right, an insurer does not have to give a reason or justify their decision to cancel a policy

grogi

To Elland Back wrote: »

The Ombudsman's door is always open and heavily weighted in favour of the policyholder. But you are right, an insurer does not have to give a reason or justify their decision to cancel a policy

Thanks. If anyone looks for it - https://www.financialombudsman.ie.

BorneTobyWilde

They made a huge song and dance out of it .

To Elland Back

To Elland Back wrote: »

If she is genuinely a plasterer and just drives to an 'occasional' event, without reward, I don't see a problem. If your friend is transporting other members or their equipment, yep I think there is a issue. The van is being used because of it's capabilities rather than the driver's usual means of transportation

I don't see why it wouldn't fall under the "social, domestic and pleasure" part of the policy. What the difference between playing in a band for a hobby and driving to soccer training in your van.

You claim to know insurance but the conditions you are putting forward are way over the top and not the case in reality. People use their cars and vans for various different things, lots of people have vans for commuting etc even (well more so jeeps etc). People pull trailors, cut laws for their family, move turf from the bog, give lifts to people, drive to sports, do odd jobs on the side etc etc etc etc and they only give their main employment to their insurer.

dr.fuzzenstein

Emmie Creamy Snowmobile wrote: »

I don't see why it wouldn't fall under the "social, domestic and pleasure" part of the policy. What the difference between playing in a band for a hobby and driving to soccer training in your can.

You claim to know insurance but the conditions you are putting forward are way over the top and not the case in reality. People use their cars and vans for various different things, lots of people have vans for commuting etc even (well more so jeeps etc). People pull trailors, cut laws for their family, move turf from the bog, give lifts to people, drive to sports, do odd jobs on the side etc etc etc etc and they only give their main employment to their insurer.

But the beauty of it is the insurer can now load so many terms and conditions onto a contract that it is actually physically impossible to comply by them all. Maybe that's the idea, from now on, anyone insurance companies don't like the look of, just find the tiny little footnote (chapter 37, paragraph 237, subsection 23b, footnote 4a) that they don't comply with and bang, gone. Then blacken their name to all other insurers so nobody will ever touch then again and sit back with satisfaction that someone's life got ruined.
And the real scumbags keep claiming.

Dartz

To Elland Back wrote: »

Insurers have teams allocated to weeding out the liars. Loads of methods (which I'm not giving here). Good fun actually, did it myself for a year.

People who commit insurance fraud are costing, on average, €50 per policy so nobody should have sympathy for them

So. That's about 3% of my total policy cost.

Yeah. I couldn't give a **** at that level.

Cuddlesworth

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

But the beauty of it is the insurer can now load so many terms and conditions onto a contract that it is actually physically impossible to comply by them all. Maybe that's the idea, from now on, anyone insurance companies don't like the look of, just find the tiny little footnote (chapter 37, paragraph 237, subsection 23b, footnote 4a) that they don't comply with and bang, gone. Then blacken their name to all other insurers so nobody will ever touch then again and sit back with satisfaction that someone's life got ruined.
And the real scumbags keep claiming.

If you feel that the contract was loaded unfairly or that the insurance company was unreasonable then you can go to the insurance ombudsman and have a human go over the case. Impacting small print unless made very clear is in most cases is not viewed as acceptable. The insurance companies will in general comply with the ruling also.

In this case, the OP could have used the ombudsman to get a quote as a musician. But he didn't, he lied, got cheaper insurance for it and then got caught. They won't help him because of that.

3DataModem

pippip wrote: »

I know its a stretch but if you were a musician paid in cash (no bank trail) how would the insurance prove you were not just playing gigs for the love of music?....pleasure.

Because it's easy to see if musicians charge money. One Google search and one phone call.

darragh o meara

As some one who was in your exact same situation 4 years ago I know what your going through.. I found Britton Ins in Donegal were able to sort me out with insurance, a little bit more than what I was paying but it got me back on the road. Incidentally, this year's policy is back with the insurer that initially cancelled my policy for non disclosure! !! However I've given up the Dj'ing so have my occupation down as my full time day job.

My advice is tell them everything, my car was burnt by some as shole and I was left with nothing as I had been driving the car into to town so I could do a gig.. Didn't have any gear in the car, but it was enough for them to do me... I thought being honest was the best policy when they asked me where I was going..

Liam McPoyle

Most insurers will only cancel if the non disclosure was deliberate and if it would have impacted either the premium or their decision to quote.

For example, if your main job is a carpenter but at the weekend you do a nixer as a plasterer there is no issue because most insurers would have the same kind or rates for manual trades men.

They will all have a wording in their terms of business, something to the effect of "if you aren't sure whether you should advise us of something, tell us anyway because if you withhold information then we may not be able to provide the cover you need".