New Bin Charges - Will you Pay More or Less

guil

I just drive the truck and thankfully don't have to make any of those decisions or answer to them.

WishUWereHere

guil wrote: »

Not a hope in hell the helpers will start going in to gardens to collect the bins. They aren't insured on private property. All our trucks have a sticker in the cab about calibration etc. Every day we lift test bins to ensure they are weighing correctly etc.

The bin is weighed going up and then again on the way down and the difference is what you will be charged so someone that has a lot of wet stuff stuck in the bottom of the bin won't be getting paying any more. Any empty bin is between 15-17kgs.

Are these practices the norm for only AES, or for all refuse companies?

guil

WishUWereHere wrote: »

Are these practices the norm for only AES, or for all refuse companies?

Which bit of the post are you referrying to?

foggy_lad

guil wrote: »

Which bit of the post are you referrying to?

My ten year old bins have no microchip or any kind of barcode or other readable device attached that can be read by the truck to link them to my account!

This is the same for most of the smaller companies. How are these companies going to operate a service which they can't currently operate? they would have to adapt or replace all their bins.

What happens if the lorry can't read the "Chip" on the bin? does the system default to an average read for those accounts? Sounds more and more like an Irish Water Disaster.

smjm

foggy_lad wrote: »

My ten year old bins have no microchip or any kind of barcode or other readable device attached that can be read by the truck to link them to my account!

This is the same for most of the smaller companies. How are these companies going to operate a service which they can't currently operate? they would have to adapt or replace all their bins.

What happens if the lorry can't read the "Chip" on the bin? does the system default to an average read for those accounts? Sounds more and more like an Irish Water Disaster.

When we switched to pay-per-lift, a few years back, they just sent us a barcoded sticker for each bin, with the chip inside it. They're not high-tech and we've never had any problems on that side of things. The stickers also have name and a/c number on them, so they probably have a manual system in place if the chip can't be read.

The bin companies have known about pay-by-weight for a long time and they should all have the systems in place. According to today's news, they'll be suspending the new scheme for 12 months anyway, so gives them plenty more time to get things in order!

guil

foggy_lad wrote: »

My ten year old bins have no microchip or any kind of barcode or other readable device attached that can be read by the truck to link them to my account!

This is the same for most of the smaller companies. How are these companies going to operate a service which they can't currently operate? they would have to adapt or replace all their bins.

What happens if the lorry can't read the "Chip" on the bin? does the system default to an average read for those accounts? Sounds more and more like an Irish Water Disaster.

They will have to install weighing systems on the truck.

WishUWereHere

guil wrote: »

Which bit of the post are you referrying to?

Apologies Guil, I think I may have this thread mixed up with another, I was actually referring to a comment You made elsewhere ( which I accept You could never have known I was talkign about this ) where You commented about checkig the bin weights prior to starting Your day.

As for this government, they really ARE experts at shooting themselves in the foot. No matter what they seem to touch, it seems to turn to the stuff that ought to be in the brown bin.

And they are getting +-€200k per year for this!!!

WishUWereHere

guil wrote: »

They will have to install weighing systems on the truck.

And the expense for this no doubt will be used as an excuse to massively increase their standing charges.

Voting this bunch back in we really deserve all the crap they are throwing at us.

Spanish Eyes

guil wrote: »

The bin is weighed going up and then again on the way down and the difference is what you will be charged so someone that has a lot of wet stuff stuck in the bottom of the bin won't be getting paying any more. Any empty bin is between 15-17kgs.

OMG I can't believe the empty bins weigh so much :eek:

Spanish Eyes

I just checked my bin collection history. With GH and paid E60 flat charge + pay by weight lift charge.

From June 15 to now my lift charges were E62.35. They fekkin hate me! Black bin minimal goes out about twice a year, brown bin a bit more over the Summer, and Green free. Now in anyone's language that is good recycling from me.

But now I have to pay E140 BEFORE any lifts. That is outrageous and is penalising those who actually try to recycle as much as possible.

They just do not want people like me, despite the spiel being put out about recycling and all that.

What a bloody joke. I'm raging, and I don't know where to turn now. I cannot physically recycle anymore than I am already, and I am being penalised for it.

Raging....

TPD

Up in Donegal, buying a tag each time the bin goes out for around 15e. I'd maybe put the bin out once every two months at most. 90 per year, I can only imagine they'll want more than that on the new scheme.

Alf Veedersane

Ever since my Mam died and my Dad decided he was sick of being taken advantage of by waste companies, he's paid about €50-60 a year for all his waste rather than pay €392 per annum for just himself.

But he's in a position to bring it to a recycling centre (closed landfill) and we're not but I wish I was.

foggy_lad

TPD wrote: »

Up in Donegal, buying a tag each time the bin goes out for around 15e. I'd maybe put the bin out once every two months at most. 90 per year, I can only imagine they'll want more than that on the new scheme.

That's the problem, people will be saving too much with the PBW system so they loaded on the service fee and also the general waste charges to make sure they get a good profit.

baggytiger

smjm wrote: »

According to today's news, they'll be suspending the new scheme for 12 months anyway

Checked out the news on reading that, and found the following in an RTE article:

"RTÉ understands that some firms who are currently tied into providing a below-cost service, primarily in the Dublin area, believe they could not sustain any deal with the Government involving a proposed price cap."

What's all this about a below-cost service? First I've heard of it. Who's tying them into it, and why?

smjm

baggytiger wrote: »

Checked out the news on reading that, and found the following in an RTE article:

"RTÉ understands that some firms who are currently tied into providing a below-cost service, primarily in the Dublin area, believe they could not sustain any deal with the Government involving a proposed price cap."

What's all this about a below-cost service? First I've heard of it. Who's tying them into it, and why?

I think they're talking rubbish (if you'll excuse the pun!). No private company would, or could, provide a long-term, below cost service. Those who do, short-term, are trying to undercut their competitors and put them out of business. That can only lead to either a monopoly or a cartel, both of which would screw the public. If that's the case, the industry should probably be nationalised.

guil

smjm wrote: »

I think they're talking rubbish (if you'll excuse the pun!). No private company would, or could, provide a long-term, below cost service. Those who do, short-term, are trying to undercut their competitors and put them out of business. That can only lead to either a monopoly or a cartel, both of which would screw the public. If that's the case, the industry should probably be nationalised.

What do you think citybin done when they started in Dublin.

Alf Veedersane

Wasn't the while idea of minimum charges to match minimum landfill/treatment charges?

I suspect the claims of waste companies losing money is guff/posturing.

foggy_lad

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Wasn't the while idea of minimum charges to match minimum landfill/treatment charges?

I suspect the claims of waste companies losing money is guff/posturing.

THey will say and do anything to keep these new charges on track, just look at how greahound brought in their bonus scheme as soon as the news broke on their price gouging. that was so they could tell the minister that they already had procedures in place to minimise the effect on the public.

smjm

guil wrote: »

What do you think citybin done when they started in Dublin.

Not a Dub, so I wouldn't know the companies involved. Given your knowledge of the industry, do you think it's suited to free-market competition that would actually provide a reasonable, low-cost service to the public? [Don't want to put you on the spot, so feel free to ignore that question! ]

guil

Low cost and waste collection don't really go hand in hand. A new truck is anything upto 250k. The diesel bill is huge as well with all the stopping and starting and constant revving for the PTO.

I'm only 30 so only know private waste collectors and back in 08 when I started it was about €400 per year for bins. That was refuse, recycling and glass in some places. Then the brown came in around 09/10 and prices were already in a race to the bottom.

smjm

guil wrote: »

Low cost and waste collection don't really go hand in hand. A new truck is anything upto 250k. The diesel bill is huge as well with all the stopping and starting and constant revving for the PTO.

I'm only 30 so only know private waste collectors and back in 08 when I started it was about €400 per year for bins. That was refuse, recycling and glass in some places. Then the brown came in around 09/10 and prices were already in a race to the bottom.

That diesel bill will only increase in areas like mine then, where they're removing the pay-by-lift option. No incentive to not put the bin out every week, rather than 10 times a year for me now!

Ludo

smjm wrote: »

That diesel bill will only increase in areas like mine then, where they're removing the pay-by-lift option. No incentive to not put the bin out every week, rather than 10 times a year for me now!

Doesn't the truck have to come round anyway to see if there is a bin there or not so makes no odds to the diesel bill? Or do you ring them to tell them to come get it when you are putting it out?

smjm

Ludo wrote: »

Doesn't the truck have to come round anyway to see if there is a bin there or not so makes no odds to the diesel bill? Or do you ring them to tell them to come get it when you are putting it out?

As guil said, it's the constant stopping and starting that increases diesel usage. A truck uses a lot less fuel when it only has to stop at 25% of houses on a route, rather than every single house.

guil

Ludo wrote: »

Doesn't the truck have to come round anyway to see if there is a bin there or not so makes no odds to the diesel bill? Or do you ring them to tell them to come get it when you are putting it out?

smjm wrote: »

As guil said, it's the constant stopping and starting that increases diesel usage. A truck uses a lot less fuel when it only has to stop at 25% of houses on a route, rather than every single house.

It's probably close to 70-80% waste bins and about 90% recycling but I could stop 500 times or more in day. That's a lot of wasted energy through braking and taking off. The truck weighs 19 ton empty and only gets heavier throughout the day.

smjm

guil wrote: »

It's probably close to 70-80% waste bins and about 90% recycling but I could stop 500 times or more in day. That's a lot of wasted energy through braking and taking off. The truck weighs 19 ton empty and only gets heavier throughout the day.

Percentages are much lower in my area, because lots of people are signed up to the pay-per-lift scheme. The proposed new pay-per-week scheme is going to require a lot more stop/start on the route, as people will put their bins out regardless of how little is in them.

guil

smjm wrote: »

Percentages are much lower in my area, because lots of people are signed up to the pay-per-lift scheme. The proposed new pay-per-week scheme is going to require a lot more stop/start on the route, as people will put their bins out regardless of how little is in them.

Not sure on the exact number but a lot of people have been on pay per lift for the last few years with us.

Ludo

I would suggest that if they are gonna defer these charges for a year, then they should force providers to issue "dummy" bills for pay-per-weight alongside current charges to show exactly how much people would have paid if the system was fully in force. The data is available. It would very quickly point out any obvious gouging and also help people get more used to it and help them adjust their behavior in time for the real billing.

smjm

guil wrote: »

Not sure on the exact number but a lot of people have been on pay per lift for the last few years with us.

Guess it all depends on the types of household in the area, and the particular pricing schemes. Our refuse started off at €8 per lift, regardless of weight, and with no standing charge. Gradually it crept up to €13.50 per lift, but if you only put it out 6 times a year, that still works out well for 1 and 2 person households. The recycling bin is €6.50 and I only put it out 4 times a year. €107 total per year for me. The new scheme would be circa €250 per year, so I might just stop using the service altogether. I suspect a lot of people will do likewise. It's the collector's loss!

tk123

Got this earlier - a bit snarky..

CityBin (Dublin City Council collections) wrote:

There has been an enormous amount of confusion and misinformation around the pay-by-weight issue. Customers are upset with the new charging system and waste contractors are upset with the government. We are deeply sorry that events have unfolded in this manner, and we too are totally frustrated with the situation.

However, to try and add some clarity to the debate, please take a few minutes to read the points below. They may shed some light on the situation.


Nobody likes paying for the guy next door but this is exactly what has been happening with household waste collection in this country. Through the ‘flat fee’ charging system, a household producing 1.5 tonnes of waste is paying the same as the household producing 0.75 tonnes of waste. There are far too may low users currently subsidising high users and, under pay by weight, these high users cannot receive lower bills without dramatic behaviour change and this won’t happen overnight.

The previous minister’s statement (made a few weeks before the election) that 87% of households would see reduced bills is mathematically impossible without further subsidisation, either from the taxpayer or the waste collector. The analysis supporting this statement did not include current prices in the Dublin market. Waste collection charges in Dublin are, on average, 25% less than the rest of the country. As well as the cross subsidisation going on within Dublin through flat fee pricing, there is also cross subsidisation with customers outside Dublin. With pay-by-weight, more people outside Dublin will see their charges go down as they currently pay market rates. That’s just a fact because prices in Dublin barely reflect the fixed cost element.

The minimum charges per kilogram do not come near meeting the actual costs of disposal. Gate fees at disposal sites are higher than 11c per kilogram for landfill waste and the 6c per kilogram for organic materials. Although the minimum charge for the green bin has been removed from the legislation, waste collectors have to pay to get rid of recycling. The idea that waste collectors get paid for recycling is a common myth. Saying that recycling should be free is like saying that electricity generated from wind farms should be free.

The cost to manage your waste goes way beyond the cost of disposal. There are trucks, bins, salaries, fuel, tax, depots, administration etc. etc. The majority of this is captured by the service charge. There has always been some form of a service charge element in the pricing structure. This is not new. Under pay-by-weight the service charge is separate.

There are three reasons why a household’s bill could go up with pay-by-weight. The first is if the household produces more waste than the average household. The second could be if the household doesn’t currently use the green and brown bin optimally. The third is where the household may be producing average or even below average waste but are on a legacy flat fee or per lift pricing plan where this plan doesn’t cover the cost of providing the service and hence is a beneficiary of the current cross subsidisation. Pay-by-weight brings these anomalies to the fore.


As I mentioned above, the 87% claim was incorrect and unhelpful. Under pay-by-weight there is no mechanism for continued cross subsidisation. Bills will certainly go down for many households around the country and those who benefit most are those that (a) reduce the overall amount of waste they throw out through prevention and re-use, and (b) maximising their recycling efforts through proper use of the brown and green bins.

Finally, from our analysis, we believe that, on average, under the new legislation roughly one third of bills will go down, one third will stay in or around the same and one third will go up. Over time, the households whose bills initially go up will start to climb back down as they reduce output and use the three bins properly.

We have no control over this legislation and, at this point, we have no idea if it will go ahead. As soon as we have clarity on the situation we will provide you with an update. The City Bin Co. have always set their stall out on service and this is where we excel.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Regards, Gene

Toto Wolfcastle

It's all well and good saying that it costs them more to dispose of the waste than they charge, but it seems all too convenient that they're only bringing it up now. Why didn't they raise their prices in the past if it was such an issue?