Section 42.. Use of lamp requires HCAP qualification by nominated hunter.

Zxthinger

Can anyone elaborate on this requirement. I shoot foxes at night with lamps and I don't require any special training. Does the HCAP have some training that's specially formulated towards nighttime shooting or does the issue of spooking deer with a lamp create a situation that needs care?

Any thoughts?

cookimonster

I think this may be an arse covering exercise on behalf of the Department, using the HCAP as a 'cover all' in relation to safety, ie if you've done the course then your deemed to be 'competent and responsible'.
I know lamping is not taught or discussed on the course so I see your point. But given that your required to notify the local ranger and Garda prior to going out, I would still tend to think thier covering themselves to a perceived risk in relation to lamping and have a record of who's been out.
By the way I also suspect this system allows them to weed out false calls about poaching so as not to have themselves lead on a wild goose chase.

Cass

cookimonster wrote: »

............ But given that your required to notify the local ranger and Garda prior to going out,.........

Say what?

For foxing/lamping foxes?

Sicne when, and what legislation says this?

tomtucker81

I remembered reading somewhere years ago about notifying the local station about night shooting/laming.
So far all I've found is in the commissioners guidelines, chapter 7 (pg 29) foxes. Basically from what I'm seeing it's that they may attach a condition that you notify the local station if you're going laming.

Fox The shooting of foxes at night time with the aid of a lamp is not unlawful provided it can be done with the permission of the landowner and it does not occur within 60 feet of the public road. However it does pose a greater risk to the public and other farm animals. A condition which might be considered appropriate to the licensing of a centrefire high powered rifle for fox shooting could be that Gardai are notified of any shooting taking place after dark.

Cass

The paragraph you've taken directly fromt he guidelines have no basis in law, and to say that shooting at night possess a greater risk to the public is the same type of unsubstantiated hyperbole that makes a shotgun restricted by simply having a pistol grip, or a .22 pistol with more than 5 rounds.

Also it has no basis in law.

So in short any station demanding that you notify them before you go out is simply making up law as they go. They are trying to save themselves the time of going out for reports of lamps/lights being used at night, not to mention hoping that by cutting down/registering or eliminating lamping with cut out poaching.. I understand not everyone has the isolated lands others may have, but its a slippery slope.

Cass

tomtucker81 wrote: »

....... and it does not occur within 60 feet of the public road. .

I know this is a line from the guidelines, but just on this point.

The only mention of distance from a road in any law is from an obscure carraigeway law from the 1870's. Some 50 years before the founding of the state. I need to search again to find it, but when i do i'll stick it up here.

My point being no current IRISH firearms law or road traffic act says anything about distance from a road and citing an old law from English times that is not in Irish law is, well, on shaky ground legally.

tomtucker81

I know it has no basis in law. They're guidelines, not law. As I said,that's all I can find on the topic now.
The one time I did ring a station to notify them of where I was going at night, the garda didn't know why i was ringing him with this information at all, or what he was supposed to do with it.

Cass

Exactly.

Also how often do you plan a day ahead? I normally make my decision 15 minutes before i head out.

tomtucker81

Well I normally have to file an application to go out approximately 2-3 weeks in advance, and send reminders of the application.

Cass

Shut up! :eek:

Seriously. That is ridiculous. I don't know what i'm doing 2-3 hours before i decide to head.

cookimonster

Cass wrote: »

Say what?

For foxing/lamping foxes?

Sicne when, and what legislation says this?

Sorry late reply......the notification is for a Section on deer and for the use of a lamp. It is part of the terms and condtions laid out on the reverse of the permit. Your supplied with a contact number for the NPW to contact them and then you contact the station local to the land on the section.

Markhor

Back in the early '70 and into the '80s when receiving a firearms licence through
the post from the Gardai they usually included an official list of do's and don'ts
and one of those was not to discharge your firearm within 60 feet from the centre of a public road.

The business of shooting foxes from public roads at night with the aid of a lamp
is widespread throughout Ireland and everyone is fully aware of it, very few fox shooters walk through the fields at night searching for foxes.

Cass

cookimonster wrote: »

Sorry late reply......the notification is for a Section on deer and for the use of a lamp. It is part of the terms and condtions laid out on the reverse of the permit. Your supplied with a contact number for the NPW to contact them and then you contact the station local to the land on the section.

Bit of a crosswires here.

With the OP referring to foxing and your post about lamping i mixed them up and thought you were referring to foxing too. not the section 42.

My bad.

ldc

Hi,
I may be able to fill in more details on what CASS has mentioned and throw a bit of further info in that may help someone from getting prosecuted or given out to.

The old law on shooting from a road:

the applicable law is Section 10(2) of the Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland) Act 1851 wherein it states:

10. Any person who shall commit any of the next following offences shall be liable to the punishment herein-after specified in each case:

(2). Any person who shall fly any kite or play at any game, or make or use any slide upon ice or snow, on any public road or in any street of a town, to the danger of the passengers; or who shall cast or throw any fireworks or discharge any firearms on any public road, or within sixty feet of the centre thereof, or in any street or passage of a town, or who shall cast, throw, or discharge the same, or suffer the same to be cast, thrown, or discharged, from out of his house, shop, dwelling, lodging, or habitation, or from out of any place thereto belonging, into any public road, street, or passage, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding ten shillings:

This Act is still applicable. However beware of the following, there is a tendency for the Gardai to use “reckless/dangerous” discharge of a firearm under the Firearms Acts where they wish to prosecute for shooting too close to road or dwelling as this does not require the precise taking of measurements as would be required under the earlier Act and as it covers a wider application of the law.

The Garda guidelines are just that "Guidelines"

As regards shooting from a vehicle:
Section 44 of the 2000 Act, the prohibition on the use of a vehicle to hunt now applies to all animals and birds other than under licence from the Minister for scientific or educational purposes.

As regards shooting with a lamp:
Lamping, irrespective of whether it is done from a road, or elsewhere does come within the definition of hunting under the Act i.e. “search for”. Section 45 of the 2000 Act deals with lamping of animals and birds. Neither foxes nor rabbits are on the schedules as protected and it is permissible to hunt those in that manner

Hope this helps.

Zxthinger

Lads
It's for a section 42.

The form states that you need HCAP if using a lamp. It says lamp but what defines a lamp. If I was shooting deer at night I wouldn't be using a lamp.. So does that mean I'm exempt for this clause.

And again where is this in the law..
The law says that you need a section 42.. then the NPWS can seemingly slot in what ever criteria they like and it too becomes law??
It's like the 100acre min nonsense for your general deer licence,!! Where do they get it from?

This particular problem may be irrelevant to my passive night vision gear setup as its not a lamp. I'm intent on using no illumination. Do I use there vague 'catch all wording' against them..

Next they'll be stipulating the minimum acreage that is required to obtain a section 42..

I'm not too bothered and I'm only in this boat as s land owner approached me and asked me to get him all the paperwork to get section 42 sorted.

Cass

Zxthinger wrote: »

The form states that you need HCAP if using a lamp. It says lamp but what defines a lamp. If I was shooting deer at night I wouldn't be using a lamp.. So does that mean I'm exempt for this clause.

If you need the HCAP for using a lamp but you're not using one then the answer seems obvious.

Nightvision is not a lamp. It (NV) requires separate authorisation on your firearms certificate so once you have that you're set.

If you're confusion arises from using a NV at night instead of a lamp at night and the main point of this being shooting at night then ring the NPWS and ask. Assumptions or opinions of anyone, myself included, that has not gotten a section 42 with the lamping/HCAP addendum attached will not hold up as just cause if you are found to be in breech of the section 42 because of what you were told or thought.


When in doubt, check it out.

cookimonster

Ok back to the OP, yes on the application form it states that use of a lamp requires the nominated stalker to have the HCAP done. The definition of a lamp and lamping is in the wild life act (to my memory ) so that is covered.
Shooting of deer at night and I would presume it's roughly the hour prior to and hour after first and last light that defines 'night time' for hunting, is illegal unless using a section 42.
I have had a few sections to date some with no lamp and others with.
My current one allows for the use of a lamp and to kill animals by day and night but it specifically doesn't allow for the use of night vision. Those without the lamp only permitted shooting by day.
The requirements to ring the authorities as in my previous post is as stated on the current permit.

Markhor

I would just like to add that prosecutions for shooting off the road are common enough.

A very good friend of mine was taken to court for shooting at a deer off the road and was convicted and fined 1000 euro for his troubles.

I wasn't there at the time of the incident but attended the court, it was a member of the public passing by that reported him to the Gardai and the Wildlife service.

Zxthinger

cookimonster wrote: »

Ok back to the OP, yes on the application form it states that use of a lamp requires the nominated stalker to have the HCAP done. The definition of a lamp and lamping is in the wild life act (to my memory ) so that is covered.
Shooting of deer at night and I would presume it's roughly the hour prior to and hour after first and last light that defines 'night time' for hunting, is illegal unless using a section 42.
I have had a few sections to date some with no lamp and others with.
My current one allows for the use of a lamp and to kill animals by day and night but it specifically doesn't allow for the use of night vision. Those without the lamp only permitted shooting by day.
The requirements to ring the authorities as in my previous post is as stated on the current permit.

So your current permit allows you to use a lamp. Fine, I understand
But you permit also specifically states that you are prohibited from using nightvision ?? I Ke it that's what your saying.

Zxthinger

Markhor wrote: »

I would just like to add that prosecutions for shooting off the road are common enough.

A very good friend of mine was taken to court for shooting at a deer off the road and was convicted and fined 1000 euro for his troubles.

I wasn't there at the time of the incident but attended the court, it was a member of the public passing by that reported him to the Gardai and the Wildlife service.

I think that shooting off the road and shooting from with 60 foot of the road are two different things... What was the actual charge brought by the dpp? Reckless discharge or discharge within 60feet etc etc.

cookimonster

Zxthinger wrote: »

......But you permit also specifically states that you are prohibited from using nightvision ?? I Ke it that's what your saying.

As nominated stalkers our HCAP numbers are detailed on the permit. Notice is to be given on the day of the shooting or the previous day if shooting is after midnight stating the approximate times of the shooting. On the schedule on the permit itself, laid out in table form :

Column 1 Species causing damage :
Details - species, gender, bag limit and states by day and by night.

Column 2 Manner of capture, killing or other control :
Details - shooting with a licensed rifle of at least 22/250 calibre
Use of lamp permitted
Use of mechanically propelled vehicle is not permitted
Use of night vision is not permitted.

Just to clarify one thing if the section does not permit the use of a lamp then the section does not permit the shooting of deer at night. So regardless of the set up an individual has if the Dept hasn't authorized it's use when, where, how etc then it's a no go.

Hope this will be of some use to others as the whole thing with sections can be deemed a big secret by some lads in the know. Luckily I was pointed in the right direction by one of the lads here when one of the farmers I shoot for wanted help.

Zxthinger

That's for the detailed synopsis. Very helpful