Non electricians

Burnt out

Hi all.

Can a person who deems himself competent but not a qualified electrician replace a light fittingredients sockethe etc (like for like).

It's just an issue cropping up at work from time to time. I am an electrician and I reckon no but where or what does the law say about this?

Regards

Hoagy

Burnt out wrote: »

Hi all.

Can a person who deems himself competent but not a qualified electrician replace a light fittingredients sockethe etc (like for like).

It's just an issue cropping up at work from time to time. I am an electrician and I reckon no but where or what does the law say about this?

Regards

If you mean in the workplace then it would be subject to the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work General Regulations 2007

Regulation 88: Persons to be competent to prevent danger

88. An employer shall ensure that no person is engaged in any work activity to which this Part
relates where technical knowledge and experience is necessary to prevent danger unless that
person is competent or is under such degree of supervision as is appropriate, having regard to
the nature of the work.
Persons should not be placed at risk due to a lack of skills on their part or the part of others in working
with electrical equipment.
Regulation 88 applies to the whole range of work associated with electrical equipment where danger
may arise, e.g. maintenance work in high voltage switch rooms, whether or not danger is actually
present during the work. For the duration of the work, control must be under a person who possesses
sufficient technical knowledge and experience, or be supervised, so as to ensure that danger is
prevented.
Technical knowledge and experience includes:
• Adequate knowledge of electricity
• Adequate experience of electrical work
• Adequate understanding of the installation type to be worked on and practical
experience of that class of installation
• Understanding of the hazards which may arise during the work and the
precautions which need to be taken
• Ability to recognise at all times whether it is safe for work to continue.
Employees involved in working with electrical equipment likely to cause danger
must be trained and instructed to ensure that they understand the safety procedures
which are relevant to their work.
The primary obligation on employers is in all cases to provide competent persons
to carry out electrical work. However, in some exceptional cases, e.g. during
training on specialist equipment, persons may require supervision, to some degree,
where their technical knowledge and experience is not sufficient to ensure that they
can otherwise undertake the work safely. In such cases, the supervisor must have
the requisite technical knowledge and experience

http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/General_Application_Regulations/Guide_to_the_Safety,_Health_and_Welfare_at_Work_General_Application_Regulations_2007.html

Sleeper12

Burnt out wrote:

Can a person who deems himself competent but not a qualified electrician replace a light fittingredients sockethe etc (like for like).

The law says yes they can but the law also says even an electrician can't work on the fusebox unless they are REC

Joe1919

A person who is not an electrician may be able to do 'minor electrical work', which is defined below under the act (g) below.

4. (3) For the purposes of section 9E(1) of the Act, ‘Designated Electrical Works’ does not include:

(a) Electrical works in potentially explosive atmospheres;

(b) Electrical works in a Commercial Premises setting including MV and HV connection and installations;

(c) Electrical works on a construction site;

(d) Electrical works within exhibitions, shows and stands;

(e) Electrical works on agricultural and horticultural installations;

(f) Electrical works on public lighting and associated cabling;

(g) Minor electrical works including the replacement of an electrical accessory such as a light switch, the replacement or relocation of a light fitting where the existing circuit is retained, the provision of an additional socket to an existing radial circuit, or electrical works which do not require the issuance of a completion certificate under section 9D of the Act.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/si/264/made/en/print

Calahonda52

Burnt out wrote: »

Hi all.

Can a person who deems himself competent but not a qualified electrician replace a light fittingredients sockethe etc (like for like).

It's just an issue cropping up at work from time to time. I am an electrician and I reckon no but where or what does the law say about this?

Regards

If at work, i.e. non domestic then no way: just think about it for a moment from employer liability.

In passing,
Re: section 9E(1) of the Act

Is there one in the 1999 Act?
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1999/act/23/enacted/en/html

Burnt out

My predictive text went a bit astray on me there. Apologies but I think everyone gets my idea.

Some conflicting responses. It's all about how you interpret the law I suppose. We are members of RECI although ive never once written a cert. I was informed you dont have to on commercial buildings.The guys are allowed change lamps (fair enough) ballasts and fittings. Even allowed test and upgrade emergency lighting. The only thing they can't do is install a new circuit( and I know they do when we are busy)

It's all fine until the stuff hits the fan I suppose. Where do they stand I suppose. They are only doing what they are told in fairness.

Risteard81

Burnt out wrote: »

We are members of RECI although ive never once written a cert. I was informed you dont have to on commercial buildings.

All Controlled Electrical Works (see http://www.walshelectrical.ie/electrical-services.html#controlled-works) legally require certification. As a RECI member your firm self-certifies. If not a RECI firm then a RECI Inspector must certify the installation.

brightspark

Burnt out wrote: »

Hi all.

Can a person who deems himself competent but not a qualified electrician replace a light fittingredients sockethe etc (like for like).

It's just an issue cropping up at work from time to time. I am an electrician and I reckon no but where or what does the law say about this?

Regards

Competent has a legal definition under the 2005 Safety Act

For the purposes of the relevant statutory provisions, a person is deemed to be a competent person where, having regard to the task he or she is required to perform and taking account of the size or hazards (or both of them) of the undertaking or establishment in which he or she undertakes work, the person possesses sufficient training, experience and knowledge appropriate to the nature of the work to be undertaken.

Without proof of training, experience and knowledge a person cannot deem themselves competent (at least while at work).

As a qualified electrician you would have proof of training (courses undertaken), experience (your apprenticeship etc) and knowledge (trade certificates etc). How can your co workers or employer prove their competence?

As always it's usually not until something goes wrong that these things are examined.

Sleeper12

brightspark wrote: »

Competent has a legal definition under the 2005 Safety Act



Without proof of training, experience and knowledge a person cannot deem themselves competent (at least while at work).

As a qualified electrician you would have proof of training (courses undertaken), experience (your apprenticeship etc) and knowledge (trade certificates etc). How can your co workers or employer prove their competence?

As always it's usually not until something goes wrong that these things are examined.

That definition rules out 99% of board.ie members looking for advice here:(

2011

Burnt out wrote: »

We are members of RECI although ive never once written a cert. I was informed you dont have to on commercial buildings.

Can you elaborate on this?
Why is a completion certificate not being issued?

The guys are allowed change lamps (fair enough) ballasts and fittings. Even allowed test and upgrade emergency lighting.

Changing lamps, testing emergency lighting with a CTU or using Lux meter is not that complicated so fair enough.

The only thing they can't do is install a new circuit( and I know they do when we are busy)

So someone other than an electrician is installing a new circuit and the work is not being certified by anyone as is it is a commercial installation? This is alarming.

It's all fine until the stuff hits the fan I suppose.

Then the blame game starts. Sure the electricians knew what was going on so they thought it was OK.

Where do they stand I suppose.

Well you are aware of what is happening.

brightspark

Sleeper12 wrote: »

That definition rules out 99% of board.ie members looking for advice here:(

But 99% of them are asking for DIY advice, not about a workplace. Rules for work are different than for DIY.

Joe1919

As far as I have seen, there are a lot of people working in the electrical profession who are not electricians as such yet they go about there job and are very competent within there own area. There are grey areas, and overlaps with other trades.
For example, the repair of lights on high buildings often call for 'riggers' with height experience rather than electricians.
The maintenance and repair of standby power plant is often done by diesel mechanics with good auto electric skills.
Similarly, many air conditioning and water pump fitters come from the plumbing trade but will know enough about electrics to wire back in the tails and check motor/phase rotation etc after changing pumps or compressors.
Similarly with alarm technicians/domestic appliance/linesman etc.
They have often been trained within there own profession.
There is also a thing called 'peer training'.

pablo128

Joe1919 wrote: »

As far as I have seen, there are a lot of people working in the electrical profession who are not electricians as such yet they go about there job and are very competent within there own area. There are grey areas, and overlaps with other trades.
For example, the repair of lights on high buildings often call for 'riggers' with height experience rather than electricians.
The maintenance and repair of standby power plant is often done by diesel mechanics with good auto electric skills.
Similarly, many air conditioning and water pump fitters come from the plumbing trade but will know enough about electrics to wire back in the tails and check motor/phase rotation etc after changing pumps or compressors.
Similarly with alarm technicians/domestic appliance/linesman etc.
They have often been trained within there own profession.
There is also a thing called 'peer training'.

One of my brothers is a central heating engineer. When he started his apprenticeship, he would put a full system into a house but wasn't allowed wire it up. An electrician had to wire it and certify it.

To work on his own, he had to go off and do a course which enabled him to hook up the system to power and certify it. This was more than 10 years ago. I can't see a reason not to have people from other trades do this course if its required.

brightspark

Joe1919 wrote: »

As far as I have seen, there are a lot of people working in the electrical profession who are not electricians as such yet they go about there job and are very competent within there own area. There are grey areas, and overlaps with other trades.
For example, the repair of lights on high buildings often call for 'riggers' with height experience rather than electricians.
The maintenance and repair of standby power plant is often done by diesel mechanics with good auto electric skills.
Similarly, many air conditioning and water pump fitters come from the plumbing trade but will know enough about electrics to wire back in the tails and check motor/phase rotation etc after changing pumps or compressors.
Similarly with alarm technicians/domestic appliance/linesman etc.
They have often been trained within there own profession.
There is also a thing called 'peer training'.

All fine, until someone makes a mistake and an accident occurs, then the solicitors will start arguing over who was responsible and ultimately the person who didn't have the right piece of paper will probably get the blame, and the person who employed them without reasonable proof of their competence will probably be found negligent.
The 2005 Act has defined competence in the workplace as needing training, experience and knowledge, just remember that if anything goes wrong that will be used as the basis of proving or disproving negligence and responsibility.
(Not legal advice, I'm not competent to give any , just what I have been told by others)

2011

Joe1919 wrote: »

As far as I have seen, there are a lot of people working in the electrical profession who are not electricians as such yet they go about there job and are very competent within there own area.

Thats true.

There are grey areas, and overlaps with other trades.

No longer grey. It is very clearly defined in law, read about it here. If you feel something is unclear, do what I did and email CER (Commission of Energy Regulation) and they will clarify it for you.

For example, the repair of lights on high buildings often call for 'riggers' with height experience rather than electricians.

Once they are competent this is permitted, see link above.

Similarly with alarm technicians/domestic appliance/linesman etc.

Alarms are ELV so once they have a valid PSA license this is permitted. Linesmen are not working on electrical installations so restricted works legislation does not apply.

2011

Sleeper12 wrote: »

That definition rules out 99% of board.ie members looking for advice here:(

Why do you mean?
Neither qualifications, experience or competency are required when seeking advice on this forum.

salmocab

Ive actually noticed a few jobs being advertised lately looking for electrical GOs. Ive worked with a couple over the years and most have been fine although I think sometimes foremen can push what they ask them to do a bit far.

Risteard81

Burnt out wrote: »

Can a person who deems himself competent but not a qualified electrician replace a light fittingredients sockethe etc (like for like).

Technically they must BE competent (not deem themselves to be competent).

Only a court could decide whether they actually were competent.

Sleeper12

2011 wrote:

Why do you mean? Neither qualifications, experience or competency are required when seeking advice on this forum.

What I meant was most aren't "competent" and probably shouldn't be trying to tackle the jobs they ask about here.

2011

Sleeper12 wrote: »

What I meant was most aren't "competent" and probably shouldn't be trying to tackle the jobs they ask about here.

Sure, however this forum can be very useful to someone that is not competent. As per the forum charter we are not trying to turn DIYers into electricans.
The aim of this forum intention is to:

● Help people understand what an electrician is trying to convey.

● Understand what wiring options being offered by the REC they engage with.

● Understand the consequences of decisions they make with their REC.

● Appreciate why doing electrical work properly can be "expensive".

● Realise that there can be serious consequences to cutting corners.

● Discuss the pros and cons of various electrical products.

● Understand the electrical regulations.

● Answer technical questions for those in the industry.

● Discuss, debate and learn about all matters electrical.

● Get a second option when work carried out by an REC appears to be "lacking". We have seen quite a bit of this over the years.


Besides, I would argue that a small minority of electricians are not particulary competent either

Sleeper12

2011 wrote:

Sure, however this forum can be very useful to someone that is not competent. As per the forum charter we are not trying to turn DIYers into electricans. The of this forum intention is to:

I get what you are saying. It wasn't a criticism or certainly wasn't intended as criticism.

Short story, slightly off topic.
Got a call a few weeks ago from a guy. Said that there was something really wrong with his electric shower and wanted it replaced immediately. I ask him what is happening with the shower. He says that the guy who installed it showed him how to clean out the filter. He said that his shower needed to be replaced because when he was removing the filter he felt "it threw him halfway across the room". I asked him did the installer not show him how to turn off the power before removing the cover? He didn't know what I was getting at. He didn't even realize that he had gotten an electric shock.
Cleaning the filter is in the manual and is considered a job safe enough for the average homeowner to do themselves. Some people aren't competent enough to change a filter.

I'm not even sure why I wanted share that. Obviously its a serious topic and although it is a serious story I find it humorous in a way. If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny as the saying goes.

2011

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I get what you are saying. It wasn't a criticism or certainly wasn't intended as criticism.

Understood.

Cleaning the filter is in the manual and is considered a job safe enough for the average homeowner to do themselves. Some people aren't competent enough to change a filter.

+1

exaisle

2011 wrote: »

Why do you mean?
Neither qualifications, experience or competency are required when seeking advice on this forum.

I always wondered what the difference between competence and competency was....

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

Technically they must BE competent (not deem themselves to be competent).

Yes, they should be competent.
In reality people deem themselves competent.
If not, who do you think makes this call?

I'm not a particular fan of this, but that is how it happens.

Risteard81

2011 wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

Technically they must BE competent (not deem themselves to be competent).

Yes, they should be competent.
In reality people deem themselves competent.
If not, who do you think makes this call?

I'm not a particular fan of this, but that is how it happens.

My point is that legally they must be competent, so them considering themselves to be competent won't protect them from legal recourse.

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

My point is that legally they must be competent

So in the real world who decides if they are competent or not?

2011

2011 wrote: »

So in the real world who decides if they are competent or not?

Electrons?

Risteard81

2011 wrote: »

So in the real world who decides if they are competent or not?

As I have stated numerous times the courts will ultimately decide.

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

As I have stated numerous times the courts will ultimately decide.

I think there is a miscommunication here. I agree with you that the court decides if it goes to court.
The fact is that normally it does not go to court.
This is where it all falls down in my opinion.
My question remains: When it doesn't go to court who decides if a person is competent?

Sleeper12

2011 wrote:

I think there is a miscommunication here. I agree with you that the court decides if it goes to court. The fact is that normally it does not go to court. This is where it all falls down in my opinion. My question remains: When it doesn't go to court who decides if a person is competent?

I'm guessing no one decides till something goes wrong & then the courts decides. It sort of sounds like you can judge yourself competent till something goes wrong, the court decides.
The old saying about closing the stable door after horse has bolted comes to mind

2011

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'm guessing no one decides till something goes wrong & then the courts decides. It sort of sounds like you can judge yourself competent till something goes wrong, the court decides.
The old saying about closing the stable door after horse has bolted comes to mind

Agreed, this is the point I made in post #24, which is no good to anyone:

In reality people deem themselves competent.