2016-17 UEFA Champions League

Andersonisgod

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Just like you talk about Real Madrid getting decisions and not about Barca getting same when you revert to La Liga Conspiracy Theory Mode

Sorry, had to...........you left yourself exposed there. ;)

Well don't just show up and make points like that when you can see I'm battling literally all of Man Utd Boards. It's hitting me in the head when I'm not looking and I absolutely won't fight on 2 fronts. You'll hear from me another day Talking Bread.

PhlegmyMoses

Andersonisgod wrote: »

To analyse the sources and check the validity of the claims made. One poster literally looked into one claim (Phil Jones) and the whole thing came crumbling down, so that's why.

Did he? They were the better team 2nd half, conceded a set piece and lost on the away goals. Were there issues? Sure. But to talk only about Pep and not about Jardim's Monaco is to expose someone with a clear as day agenda.

Its hard to reconcile your views on City losing to a good, but not great, Monaco side with how harshly critical you have been of other English sides this year. You have used raw figures for transfers to beat other clubs up with, yet when City's expensively assembled squad ship 6 over two games to a team put together for a fraction of the cost, you let them off the hook.

Let's be real here, this is a horrible result for City. Monaco was a soft enough draw relative to the types of teams that have been dumping them out of the CL before the real fun starts in the last few years (last season notwithstanding). And yet here they are again, out of Europe having snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. I see some positives in this City side from an attacking perspective and a good summer in the transfer market should help, but I'd be very wary of what comes in the door considering the state of the defenders and goalkeepers that he has chosen so far. Lots more work for Pep to do.

Andersonisgod

Giggsy11 wrote: »

No it didn't. Stop lying and also crying about ManUtd on every thread. Your obsession with ManUtd is stronger than you love for multiple clubs.

Since you love nice facts, here is one. Pep Guardiola took over a team that were semi finalists last season, added around 180 Million pounds worth of talent and Knocked out in round of 16.

Revolutionary manager who still uses **** full backs used by "past it" Wenger 10 years ago.

Then talk about the CL. I've got more CL related posts on this thread post match than probably all of Man Utd Boards combined. Talk about the quality of Fabinho, or the potential of Mbappe, or just how good could Mendy become, or how far Monaco can go in this competition, or how Jardim has expertly coached this side in two extremes of the game. So many things you could talk about and yet it's always Man Utd....

The Talking Bread

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Well don't just show up and make points like that when you can see I'm battling literally all of Man Utd Boards. It's hitting me in the head when I'm not looking and I absolutely won't fight on 2 fronts. You'll hear from me another day Talking Bread.

As I said I genuinely don't want to hear your spin on it, it will result in the thread going into Conspiracy Overdrive! I anticipate you will not concede on the subject but I will still throw a dig every now and then!

bucketybuck

Less Man United, more on Pep Guardiola and his inability to get the best from his players.

Giggsy11

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Then talk about the CL. I've got more CL related posts on this thread post match than probably all of Man Utd Boards combined. Talk about the quality of Fabinho, or the potential of Mbappe, or just how good could Mendy become, or how far Monaco can go in this competition, or how Jardim has expertly coached this side in two extremes of the game. So many things you could talk about and yet it's always Man Utd....

Yes because of one poster who always brings them up and start **** posting.

Andersonisgod

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Its hard to reconcile your views on City losing to a good, but not great, Monaco side with how harshly critical you have been of other English sides this year. You have used raw figures for transfers to beat other clubs up with, yet when City's expensively assembled squad ship 6 over two games to a team put together for a fraction of the cost, you let them off the hook.

Let's be real here, this is a horrible result for City. Monaco was a soft enough draw relative to the types of teams that have been dumping them out of the CL before the real fun starts in the last few years (last season notwithstanding). And yet here they are again, out of Europe having snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. I see some positives in this City side from an attacking perspective and a good summer in the transfer market should help, but I'd be very wary of what comes in the door considering the state of the defenders and goalkeepers that he has chosen so far. Lots more work for Pep to do.

That's fair, and certainly Monaco's side is a fraction of the cost of City's. I will say that the makeup of the City side makes me slightly less willing to attack them this season. Some of those guys are on their last legs, others were bought for big money but for the future moreso than this immediate future.

I would contest the assessment of Monaco though. Top scorers in Europes top 5 leagues. They beat Spurs twice and are the real deal. Perhaps not a traditional big name at this stage of the competition but will test any team they draw in the quarters. Also it has to be mentioned again that this is Guardiola's first season and Monaco look further along in their development under Jardim.

Andersonisgod

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Yes because of one poster who always brings them up and start **** posting.

Go through the thread, see who mentions Man Utd first and keeps talking about them, then please come back and apologise.

The Golden Miller

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Surely you are taking the p1ss here!!

You honestly think Monaco, 2 goals down going into that game against a side nearing 2 months unbeaten were certs to go through! Yes they still had a decent chance of going through but a team that concedes 5 goals in a first leg is hardly a f'in team that should be nailed as "certs" to progress!!


:rolleyes:

Yes, read my posts after the first leg. Can't quote them atm as I'm on the phone. Certs

Andersonisgod

The Talking Bread wrote: »

As I said I genuinely don't want to hear your spin on it, it will result in the thread going into Conspiracy Overdrive! I anticipate you will not concede on the subject but I will still throw a dig every now and then!

I'm still working up to this epic response but I've been sidetracked the last while. Eventually the La Liga thread will get all the latest underground conspiracy news that Florentino Perez doesn't want you to hear.

highgiant1985

So Leicester City are the last English team in the CL... never would have predicted it myself!

TitianGerm

murpho999 wrote: »

Imagine if City fans had been told they would score 6 goals over 2 legs and still go out.

Probably still wouldn't be to surprised considering how they've defended this year.

Giggsy11

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Go through the thread, see who mentions Man Utd first and keeps talking about them, then please come back and apologise.

No thanks. Might accidentally read some posts and vomit.

So it this thread good enough to discuss Pep or is it only for CL managers which Pep is not part of anymore?

Anyways this is a failure however you spin it, since you love money spent on squad building this is even bigger failure considering Moncao are on tiny budget in comparison.

Pep took over a team that lost to eventual winners in Semi finals, that too with a own goal. Conceded just once to Madrid, With addition of around 180 Million talent some how made it worse.

Arghus

Lads can you not see: every defeat makes Pep a better manager. It's simple really.

Liam McPoyle

Arghus wrote: »

Lads can you not see: every defeat makes Pep a better manager. It's simple really.

Its part of his plan.

Us mere mortals couldn't possibly understand the nuances of what he is achieving.

The Talking Bread

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Yes, read my posts after the first leg. Can't quote them atm as I'm on the phone. Certs

Just because you THOUGHT they were certs doesn't mean they were. Sure City had 5 or 6 chances in that 2nd half before and after their goal. They then conceded an awful goal.
Hardly comfortable progression.

I can't take anyone seriously who thinks that a team that conceded 5 goals in a first leg were certs to go through regardless! All City had to do was score one more goal ( against a team, I repeat that leaked 5 goals in the first leg) and Monaco would need 3 to prevent them progressing! And that is how it panned out inevitably!

But for you to say after the first leg that Monaco, despite being 2 down were CERTS (which means for definite, not just your opinion) to progress is embarrassing.

The Talking Bread

Arghus wrote: »

Lads can you not see: every defeat makes Pep a better manager. It's simple really.

Pepscuses, Pepscuses, Pepscuses, all the time! He is the ultimate hustler!

Arghus

Rod Munch wrote: »

Its part of his plan.

Us mere mortals couldn't possibly understand the nuances of what he is achieving.

Especially when he's transformed a table topping team in the first few months of the season, into one that's 10 points off the summit today. That's the real genius.

Albert_Camus

Giggsy11 wrote: »

So it this thread good enough to discuss Pep or is it only for CL managers which Pep is not part of anymore?

Ha! That's a good point lets get on to the real genius, Craig Shakespeare.

Andersonisgod

Giggsy11 wrote: »

No thanks. Might accidentally read some posts and vomit.

So it this thread good enough to discuss Pep or is it only for CL managers which Pep is not part of anymore?

Anyways this is a failure however you spin it, since you love money spent on squad building this is even bigger failure considering Moncao are on tiny budget in comparison.

Pep took over a team that lost to eventual winners in Semi finals, that too with a own goal. Conceded just once to Madrid, With addition of around 180 Million talent some how made it worse.

A very favourable draw helped them and, it was fairly clear over 2 legs, they were not in the class of Real Madrid.

Funny though, you judge them on that, a side that Pellegrini was given 3 seasons to build into his image and yet you attack Guardiola after 1 season, even though league performance is better this season and they could end it as FA Cup winners...

Funny also how people criticise me for not criticising Guardiola yet, as with above, some people go out of their way to criticise Guardiola and not give him any credit, so I ask you, where is the love?

And on that thought-provoking comment, I leave you.

Giggsy11

Andersonisgod wrote: »

A very favourable draw helped them and, it was fairly clear over 2 legs, they were not in the class of Real Madrid.

Funny though, you judge them on that, a side that Pellegrini was given 3 seasons to build into his image and yet you attack Guardiola after 1 season, even though league performance is better this season and they could end it as FA Cup winners...

Funny also how people criticise me for not criticising Guardiola yet, as with above, some people go out of their way to criticise Guardiola and not give him any credit, so I ask you, where is the love?

And on that thought-provoking comment, I leave you.

So more excuses on the draw. Last season they topped the group that had Juventus, Sevilla. They played PSG in the quarter finals and won.

Funny Pellegrini won the league title in his first season and didn't look for excuses.

So you are not leaving with thought provoking comments, more like you are leaving with more excuses.

TitianGerm

Andersonisgod wrote: »

A very favourable draw helped them and, it was fairly clear over 2 legs, they were not in the class of Real Madrid.

Funny though, you judge them on that, a side that Pellegrini was given 3 seasons to build into his image and yet you attack Guardiola after 1 season, even though league performance is better this season and they could end it as FA Cup winners...

Funny also how people criticise me for not criticising Guardiola yet, as with above, some people go out of their way to criticise Guardiola and not give him any credit, so I ask you, where is the love?

And on that thought-provoking comment, I leave you.

Were city not only a few points behind the leaders last year before the Board announced Pep would be coming in at the end of the year?

Form collapsed after that. I think they would have won the league or been very close if the board hadn't made that announcement.

I suppose it's very hard to put 100% in for your coach when you know he's gone in a few months.

Arghus

Giggsy11 wrote: »

So you are not leaving with thought provoking comments, more like you are leaving with more excuses.

More like he won't be actually leaving!

Deub

I saw this post from 2012 from this thread : http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76979885

EdenHazard wrote: »

Just seen that Monaco are in the bottom 3 of the second division, 2 points behind le mans in 17th. From Champions League finalists to Third tier French division mayb in under a decade!

I have checked the transfer fees for players they bought and sold since 2012 from transfermarkt and apparently it cost them £77.72m to be where they are today (and it is the second time in 3 years they reach the quarter final.
I think it looks quiet impressive.

inforfun

That owner that jumped in when they were relegation fodder in Ligue 2 did a great job.
Bought his way out of Ligue 2 (with the likes of Barazite)
Bought mega stars for mega money in ligue 1
Got a pricey divorce
Sold mega stars for mega money and focussend on building a proper youth academy.

And got some manager in how somehow has it in him to built and play very defensive, rather boring team 1 year and built and play about one of the most exciting teams in recent years the next year.

jmayo

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Huge credit to Monaco, they were tremendous to watch over 2 legs. Even bigger credit to Leonardo Jardim who has coached a multi-faceted monster, from a skilled defensive unit capable of breaking quick last season to being a wonderfully progressive side this season, Jardim has proven himself a top level coach and he oversees a side that nobody will enjoy drawing in the quarter finals.

WTF Monaco defensive ??
They let in 6 goals over two legs.
They have some great players going forward, but in defense they can be damn sloppy and flaky as was shown the first match where they gifted city a couple of goals.
Maybe you should watch Juve where Dani Alves has actually been shown how to really defend.

Andersonisgod wrote: »

For Man City, they played very well for almost 3 quarters of those 2 legs, however the first half here this evening was a killer. Still some very promising signs of what's taking shape at City, with the right summer this will be a far more formidable unit.

What promising signs ?
They continue leaking sloppy goals because they can't defend.
And he seems to be basing his defense around an overpriced fraud of a defender.

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Fantastic last 16 of the competition. Maybe there were rumblings during the group stage that perhaps the competition has lost some of its luster (not helped by those very dull group stages) but when you see the kind of games like this evening and throughout this last 16 round there can't be any doubts that this is the pinnacle of the sport.

Yep the pinnacle of the sport where two teams of overpaid prima donnas literally shat themselves self imploding when push came to shove.
And another two showed they couldn't defend properly and let in 12 goals between them. :rolleyes:

Andersonisgod

jmayo wrote: »

WTF Monaco defensive ??
They let in 6 goals over two legs.
They have some great players going forward, but in defense they can be damn sloppy and flaky as was shown the first match where they gifted city a couple of goals.
Maybe you should watch Juve where Dani Alves has actually been shown how to really defend.



What promising signs ?
They continue leaking sloppy goals because they can't defend.
And he seems to be basing his defense around an overpriced fraud of a defender.



Yep the pinnacle of the sport where two teams of overpaid prima donnas literally shat themselves self imploding when push came to shove.
And another two showed they couldn't defend properly and let in 12 goals between them. :rolleyes:

Was clearly referring to last season when they played in a completely different way. Practically a full 180 by Jardim in how he's set up his side this season compared to last. He's done both impressively.

I'm gonna run at this one. "You should watch Juve where Dani Alves has been shown how to actually defend" I will use Alves as the example but it applies to something you'll hear pundits talk about in regards to numerous players on any given weekend. Dani Alves is a great defender, that's not just the case in 2017, it's always been the case. The difference is that at Barcelona he was the right back and the right winger for much of his time at the club, he bombs up and down the line, and because it's Barcelona, he gets little protection in front of him and he's playing in one of the highest lines in Europe. I'm not sure how many full backs could contribute as much as Alves in an attacking and defensive sense as he did for Barcelona, but the guy was a total freak of nature. You say he's been shown how to properly defend but that's incorrect, Alves hasn't changed, his environment has. Alves is the same player he always was, he simply now plays in a team that offers more protection to him on his side, he plays in a deeper block out of possession and has less attacking responsibilities than at Barcelona (where at times his average position in a game would be higher up the pitch than any of his teammates.) That's not "properly defending" that's simply defending in a different style and system. Defending the large spaces that Barcelona, and City, do is part and parcel of playing the way they do, you can't play possession football with an aggressive press and also play a low block loads of cover for your defenders, maybe you could if you were playing 15 or 16 aside, but not 11 a side.

I've gone about explaining the defensive thing above. When you, and I think most British pundits, talk about defending, what they really want is Leicester last season or Chelsea 2011/2012 and, while it's a perfectly legitimate tactic to play like that, you can't do that and play the style of football that Pep's teams play. He thinks that, in the long run, his way will be more successful than if he played another way, that's his opinion and it's been shaped by many people. Personally, I would hope that more coaches choose his approach and, judging by the makeup of the remaining 8 teams in this competition, progressive football is certainly on the rise.

Mate if you want "defending" in the style that you like so much then watch something different. Instead of talking about this version of "defending" that you enjoy so much, maybe appreciate that you've seen a fantastic tie between two brilliantly proactive sides that produced 12 goals. That's football.

The Talking Bread

Even Pep blames himself for the way they played yesterday! Surely you have to step back and maybe just acknowledge he completely got it wrong yesterday. Yes they nearly stole it but they had a 2 goal lead and blew it. You can give all the plaudits in the world to Monaco, and they deserve huge appraisal. They are fantastic to watch in and around the opposition box but just like PSG, Sevilla. If you blow a lead going into a second leg, you have clearly failed in your duties, especially when there is so much at stake. Today he essentially said he couldn't get it into their heads to attack!! UNTIL THE SECOND HALF!!

I mean, this is a guy playing away from home two up and his first concern is telling his team to attack attack. And, he then said he failed at that!
It is not as if they defended well.
They had f all structure in the first half. No leadership. These aren't a bunch of journeymen. They are decent to quality players. By all means let players like Sterling and Sane do their own thing, but at this stage Silva has to be a player who should be leading that team. Getting in their heads. I remember a few years back Viera was hailing him as such but he just looked as lost as de Bruyne out there last night, waiting for something to happen.


You waffle on about the fact that these are all players for the future and they are in transition. But surely their development requires someone, a Keane, an Adams, a Viera, a Kompany, a Terry getting in their heads, scaring the sh1t out of them but most of all motivating them.
Pep seems disinterested in instilling such a player into this Man City team/squad and that is one of the main reasons why they lost last night.
And such is his responsibility. I think de Bruyne could be such a player if he is mentored properly by Pep who is a leader himself and knows how NB such a player is. But he (KDB) looked like a rabbit in the headlights at times last night. They need him to step up next season in this respect.
And if there isn't a natural leader, the manager must step up and scare the cr*p out of them, ensure they will do what he demands.


So yeah, hail the Monaco team, players, manager but do not fail to acknowledge his failings. He and his team have plenty.

Turtwig

Even with his fabled Barca side pep would deploy two defensive midfielders once advantage was there. Two goal cushion no need to be front foot based. Not saying you have to park the bus either. The balance busquets and keita gave him was surely possible to be imitated last night. Then if things went against him he could have changed to that dominating set up used in the 2nd half.

Andersonisgod

I don't think I did particularly talk up Guardiola in that post above, I was just outlining that there are different types of "defending" than the one that you really only see referred to by the British media. That was the main point of that post.

In terms of the game yesterday, ye it was disappointing for Man City not to go through yesterday. They did have a 2 goal lead but Monaco were always going to get goals, that's what they do. The real disappointment was City's first half performance, which, personally I don't think was a tactical issue. The idea seemed pretty simple, play Silva and De Bruyne high and close to Aguero, use the triangle of Fernandino/Stones/Kolarov to play vertical into the forward players (which included Silva and De Bruyne pushed up) to bypass the Monaco press. Problem was that Monaco really did time their press well and City just couldn't get any comfortable possession in the middle third of the pitch in the 1st half. The 2 times they did, it led to very promising situations spoiled by poorly timed runs that were called offside.

2nd half was far better, De Bruyne deeper gave them a better base to build from, the full backs pushed higher and De Bruyne found some stunning passes from deep. They missed 4 excellent opportunities in the space of 10-12 minutes. Their goal was fully deserved in the run of play. They were undone by a set piece and the away goals.

Over 2 legs the issue wasn't the strategy or the philosophy. The problems were glaring individual errors that undermined it. The 3 goals from the first leg were all individual errors, the poor 1st half performance stemmed from City's players struggling to relieve pressure by putting passes together and shifting the ball away from pressure. I do think there's lots of issues to address and, clearly, some of these City players wont get another chance at the CL for this club, but I think they've shown promise in this campaign and are on the right track. There was a lot to admire about their Champions League campaign.

Leadership is important but I wouldn't place the same value on individual leaders as you do. In time perhaps some of these players will grow into commanding leaders under this regime. Just as an example, who would have thought Gerard Pique would grow from immature messer that Puyol had to constantly watch into a real leader? The club has to trust some of these guys to do the same, as does Pep.

Andersonisgod

Turtwig wrote: »

Even with his fabled Barca side pep would deploy two defensive midfielders once advantage was there. Two goal cushion no need to be front foot based. Not saying you have to park the bus either. The balance busquets and keita gave him was surely possible to be imitated last night. Then if things went against him he could have changed to that dominating set up used in the 2nd half.

Maybe he could have gone with 2 defensive midfielders last night, though that he didn't bring on Yaya Toure at all was telling in that he clearly didn't believe the Ivorian could play against that Monaco tempo last night. The options in that position aren't very deep, and they don't have a Keita they can call on, let alone a Busquets.

I get what he was hoping for in the first half with his set up, and, to be honest, if I was in his shoes it's what I would've gone with too, because the potential was there for De Bruyne and Silva to cause havoc behind Monaco's midfield, but the players behind them just couldn't deliver the ball into them with any regularity or quality.

Turtwig

Andersonisgod wrote: »

who would have thought Gerard Pique would grow from immature messer that Puyol had to constantly watch into a real leader?

Alex Ferguson did. He did not want Pique to leave but realised Piques passion for Barca made it nigh on impossible to keep him. I'd love to know what fergie thinks of John Stones.

ERG89

I hope when the quarter finals start people will stop talking about Pep :pac:

Harry Palmr

The draw any second now

Ah the closest Liverpool will get the the Cup of European Club Champions.

citytillidie

Ian Rush doing the draw, I hope he does not struggle like last year to open the balls

Harry Palmr

Atlético Madrid v Leicester City! Whoa.

Lord TSC

Leicester vs Athletico!

Harry Palmr

Borussia Dortmund v Monaco - goals

citytillidie

Quarter Final Draw
Atlético Madrid (ESP) V Leicester City (ENG)
Borussia Dortmund (GER) V Monaco (FRA)
FC Bayern München (GER) V Real Madrid (ESP)
Juventus (ITA) V FC Barcelona (ESP)

Harry Palmr

Bayern Munich v Real Madrid - massive!

citytillidie

Is Ian Rush ok, look at the shakes of his hands doing that draw

Lord TSC

Bayern vs Real
Juventus vs Barca

Some lovely matches there to look forward too.

Omackeral

citytillidie wrote: »

Quarter Final Draw
Atlético Madrid (ESP) V Leicester City (ENG)
Borussia Dortmund (GER) V Monaco (FRA)
FC Bayern München (GER) V Real Madrid (ESP)
Juventus (ITA) V FC Barcelona (ESP)

Some great ties there. AIG your conspiracy prediction of Real Madrid vs Leicester City has failed to come to fruition.

brevity

Great draws. The Barca/Juve one is the pick imo.

alchemist33

Lord TSC wrote: »

Bayern vs Real
Juventus vs Barca

Some lovely matches there to look forward too.

Will those two clash? I hope not

Harry Palmr

brevity wrote: »

Great draws. The Barca/Juve one is the pick imo.

What? Dortmund v Monaco will make the rest pointless, it'll be at least 10-8 on aggregate :pac:

The Talking Bread

alchemist33 wrote: »

Will those two clash? I hope not

All 1/4 finals have their own night. First legs played out over a fortnight...........I am pretty sure?

The Talking Bread

Harry Palmr wrote: »

What? Dortmund v Monaco will make the rest pointless, it'll be at least 10-8 on aggregate :pac:

Nah, Dortmund have a manager that knows how to defend!!

Omackeral

The Talking Bread wrote: »

All 1/4 finals have their own night. First legs played out over a fortnight...........I am pretty sure?

Nah it's two on each night. 11/12 of April and 18/19 of April.

ERG89

The Talking Bread wrote:

Nah, Dortmund have a manager that knows how to defend!!

You obviously haven't seen them play