So is Croke Park gone for the ASTI then?

The_Valeyard

So ASTI say no to the Coke Park hours.



Will post link when free.

km79

gavwaldo wrote: »

Done and sent to my 4 TDs......good idea btw

I got no reply from any of mine
Was there a vote on FEMPI or how was it extended? Id like to see how they voted if so

deiseindublin

I couldn't see any mention of the vote or what the breakdown was km79. Only found this on KildareStreet:
https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2016-06-29a.5

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

I got no reply from any of mine
Was there a vote on FEMPI or how was it extended? Id like to see how they voted if so

no reply from TD's my end either.

feardeas

This is from the ASTI website http://www.asti.ie/news/campaigns/croke-park-hours/

Not sure if link will work as I have not tried that before.

The relevant detail is here:
“Subject to the provisions of this section and section 8, for the period of 5 years beginning on 1 July 2013 –

(a) no increment shall be awarded to a public servant; and

(b) the operation of the pay scales that applies in respect of a public servant shall stand suspended,

and with the effect that –

the point on that pay scale shall be applicable in respect of a public servant on 1 July 2018 shall be that which was applicable on 1 July 2013 in respect of him or her…”


Does this mean that our pay will be cut to increment levels of 2013? This was never said by the ASTI or the Dept in the run up to the ballot. There was talk of an increment freeze but I did not think it would be back dated to 2013. If that is the case I am shocked and frankly worried. To the best of my knowledge that was not said at the time. Certainly not explicitly. The department did not state that at the time on their website unless that was the reasoning behind the idea of being worse off to the tune of 31k.

Also how could they actually do that. HRA was in force from 2013 to now. We fulfilled that. We rejected LRA and surely any freeze should be from now rather than 3 years ago especially when we were actually in an agreement and fulfilling it.


I notice that the ASTI have it on their facebook page and people are asking questions and not getting answers.

I voted to continue with CP, was resigned to not getting an increment for 6 years [because of the stage I am at] but am shocked at going back to 2013 levels tbh. I'm hoping someone will be able to clarify although I intend to contact ASTI tomorrow.

Moody_mona

feardeas wrote: »

This is from the ASTI website http://www.asti.ie/news/campaigns/croke-park-hours/

Not sure if link will work as I have not tried that before.

The relevant detail is here:
Subject to the provisions of this section and section 8, for the period of 5 years beginning on 1 July 2013

(a) no increment shall be awarded to a public servant; and

(b) the operation of the pay scales that applies in respect of a public servant shall stand suspended,

and with the effect that

the point on that pay scale shall be applicable in respect of a public servant on 1 July 2018 shall be that which was applicable on 1 July 2013 in respect of him or her


Does this mean that our pay will be cut to increment levels of 2013? This was never said by the ASTI or the Dept in the run up to the ballot. There was talk of an increment freeze but I did not think it would be back dated to 2013. If that is the case I am shocked and frankly worried. To the best of my knowledge that was not said at the time. Certainly not explicitly. The department did not state that at the time on their website unless that was the reasoning behind the idea of being worse off to the tune of 31k.

Also how could they actually do that. HRA was in force from 2013 to now. We fulfilled that. We rejected LRA and surely any freeze should be from now rather than 3 years ago especially when we were actually in an agreement and fulfilling it.


I notice that the ASTI have it on their facebook page and people are asking questions and not getting answers.

I voted to continue with CP, was resigned to not getting an increment for 6 years [because of the stage I am at] but am shocked at going back to 2013 levels tbh. I'm hoping someone will be able to clarify although I intend to contact ASTI tomorrow.

That not my reading of it. Fempi imposed a five year freeze. The agreements that we had used delays instead depending on salary. My reading is that now we go to a freeze, and won't get anything for two years (2018). Rte said that anyone from asti due an increment from tomorrow wouldn't be receiving it.

I'm annoyed that the ASTI didn't explain the points that the published. And I'm annoyed that people went scare mongering straight away that we'd be back to 2013 pay and we'd all lose CIDs.

feardeas

Moody_mona wrote: »

That not my reading of it. Fempi imposed a five year freeze. The agreements that we had used delays instead depending on salary. My reading is that now we go to a freeze, and won't get anything for two years (2018). Rte said that anyone from asti due an increment from tomorrow wouldn't be receiving it.

I'm annoyed that the ASTI didn't explain the points that the published. And I'm annoyed that people went scare mongering straight away that we'd be back to 2013 pay and we'd all lose CIDs.

I hope you are right. I'm genuinely not trying to scaremonger although I am scared my self tbh. I pasted what was on the website to my post. I saw the news as well and my understanding was the same as yours until I saw the fb post from the ASTI.

Moody_mona

feardeas wrote: »

Moody_mona wrote: »

That not my reading of it. Fempi imposed a five year freeze. The agreements that we had used delays instead depending on salary. My reading is that now we go to a freeze, and won't get anything for two years (2018). Rte said that anyone from asti due an increment from tomorrow wouldn't be receiving it.

I'm annoyed that the ASTI didn't explain the points that the published. And I'm annoyed that people went scare mongering straight away that we'd be back to 2013 pay and we'd all lose CIDs.

I hope you are right. I'm genuinely not trying to scaremonger although I am scared my self tbh. I pasted what was on the website to my post. I saw the news as well and my understanding was the same as yours until I saw the fb post from the ASTI.

No sorry that's not what I meant, yours is very clearly a question. Facebook is full of statements from people. There has been no mention of return to 2013 pay and it doesn't make any sense to me on the context.

feardeas

Moody_mona wrote: »

No sorry that's not what I meant, yours is very clearly a question. Facebook is full of statements from people. There has been no mention of return to 2013 pay and it doesn't make any sense to me on the context.

I agree no mention. I see someone on FB saying that they seem to be quoting the 2013 Act as amended in 2015. As such then one assumes it is the case that there will not be a cut back to 2013 levels. I hope they will clarify this soon.

Also hope they will clarify the situation regarding CIDs for those that got them in May under the Ward report. At this stage the ASTI are making the two main political parties in the UK look efficiently organised.

petejmk

I can't see gardaí putting up with a return to 2013 pay.

feardeas

@ Moody_monaDoes not make sense to me but I wonder if the 31K figure the Dept was talking about in regard to losses came from there. At any rate I hope you are right and that the union will be in a position to clarify this soon.

political analyst

feardeas wrote: »

.
I voted to continue with CP, was resigned to not getting an increment for 6 years [because of the stage I am at] but am shocked at going back to 2013 levels tbh. I'm hoping someone will be able to clarify although I intend to contact ASTI tomorrow.

Surely, the integrity of the teaching profession is bigger than any particular member of the profession.

Do you not want to take a stand on the issue of the CP hours?

feardeas

I do not intend to go back over the debate. I made contributions here at the time.

My concerns are about pay cuts. However in relation to integrity of the profession. IMO greater planning and collaboration among colleagues would benefit the profession and this can be facilitated by cp. Particularly the increase from five to ten hours that can be done in own time. In other words the proper use of one extra hour a week could possibly benefit the profession but that ship has sailed.

I also do not believe that concern over pay and a belief in the integrity of the profession are mutulally exclusive.

km79

We will not be returning to 2013 pay levels . That was just people panicking about losing a few 100 euro a year after tax without actually taking the time to read and understand the legislation. Dont panic ye will still keep the few euro.
And there was the person outraged the union had not pointed out the implications for CIDs ....... I mean seriously ! It was one of the main issues raised by many people , the union and the dept !
I despair !

feardeas

To be fair the language in the piece on the site was very clear and worrying. No disrespect to anybody but I will wait until I see clarity and I see no need for an apology for being concerned about salary.

evolving_doors

feardeas wrote: »

I do not intend to go back over the debate. I made contributions here at the time.

My concerns are about pay cuts. However in relation to integrity of the profession. IMO greater planning and collaboration among colleagues would benefit the profession and this can be facilitated by cp. Particularly the increase from five to ten hours that can be done in own time. In other words the proper use of one extra hour a week could possibly benefit the profession but that ship has sailed.

I also do not believe that concern over pay and a belief in the integrity of the profession are mutulally exclusive.

In theory it 'can' be facilitated by Cp, but... the evidence shows it hasn't so far... CP hours have just lead to resentment and a pushing of other agendas (SSE anyone!), which as we all know, leads to box ticking.
So when we're in a meeting and being told how to teach and collaborate, what is in the back of everyone's minds?
'oh I'm so on board with this'
... Not
Back to extrinsic and intrinsic motivation again.

feardeas

Gebgbegb wrote: »

In theory it 'can' be facilitated by Cp, but... the evidence shows it hasn't so far... CP hours have just lead to resentment and a pushing of other agendas (SSE anyone!), which as we all know, leads to box ticking.
So when we're in a meeting and being told how to teach and collaborate, what is in the back of everyone's minds?
'oh I'm so on board with this'
... Not
Back to extrinsic and intrinsic motivation again.

Don't want to go off topic. Agree with you. The imposition of CP was bad enough. The total lack of imagination at local level, i.e. school principals, led to huge and justified resentment. Agree with the motivation as well, in this game it is all intrinsic imo. I've been teaching for 12 years and the sense of utter non progression in a career is really overwhelming and I am one of the lucky few who managed to be made PWT early in my career.

However as a colleague and friend keeps stressing to me the satisfaction has to come from the classroom and thankfully it does. Would be nice if the weather would improve and we might be able to enjoy the time off that everyone, who all had the option in the CAO, are so envious of.

Benicetomonty

Safe to say our new general secratary is far far more capable than his predecessor. Good showing on the 6 1 this eve. VP also well spoken and empathetic.

feardeas

Heard him on 6.1. Thought he came across quite well. Even lay the ground for talks I thought. Maybe there will be a solution found.

Glad to see the focus on different pay levels tbh. I truly hope there's a plan. After this evening I think it's possible there is but they need to have one.

We may be blessed more with the rag tag government that is on the other side with independents getting jittery at this early stage.

gaiscioch

PDFORRA has waded into the debate. An interesting twist in the bit I underlined: they haven't signed up to the LRA but they're willing to fulfil their obligations to it once the government deals with their outstanding issues, most especially regarding two-tier pay. From the RTÉ website:

The Government's imposition of an increment freeze on members of the Defence Forces is provocative and inappropriate, according to the body representing soldiers, sailors and aircrew.

The Permanent Defence Force Other Ranks Representative Association (PDFORRA) is one of the representative bodies which has not accepted the Lansdowne Road Agreement (LRA) public sector pay deal.

The other bodies include the Garda Representative Association, the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, and the Association of Secondary Teachers in Ireland.

Since 1 July members of those groups have been subjected to an increment freeze under the terms of financial emergency legislation known as FEMPI.

PDFORRA General Secretary Gerry Rooney said they have not yet balloted members, because it has outstanding issues and clarifications to be addressed, including a two-tier pay structure.

He stressed that PDFORRA had indicated that it will meet all its obligations under the LRA, even though it has not yet signed up to the deal.

He said PDFORRA will now initiate the dispute resolution process contained within the agreement to challenge the application of the pay freeze.

PDFORRA noted that it is not permitted to join the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and is thus excluded from centralised pay bargaining.

RTÉ: Govt's increment freeze 'provocative and inappropriate' - PDFORRA

doc_17

Martin Wall from the Irish Times had this on Twitter this afternoon;

"Teachers reject Gov proposals to continue to work Croke Pk hours til Oct to allow for talks.In return increments wd not be frozen"

km79

doc_17 wrote: »

Martin Wall from the Irish Times had this on Twitter this afternoon;

"Teachers reject Gov proposals to continue to work Croke Pk hours til Oct to allow for talks.In return increments wd not be frozen"

I hope that's true
We all don't want to lose money of course but value weekday evenings more than a tiny pay rise
I really mean that
Having 2 kids makes those evenings really annoying

doc_17

The next big decision for the Gov will be whether they break the HRA and not pay the S&S. That will surely lead to a ballot to withdraw from it. In turn schools will have to close if the Dept don't/can't put something in place.

But whilst that is ongoing the TUI and INTO will be discussing new entrant's pay and if they can get justice then that might be the out for all.

km79

doc_17 wrote: »

The next big decision for the Gov will be whether they break the HRA and not pay the S&S. That will surely lead to a ballot to withdraw from it. In turn schools will have to close if the Dept don't/can't put something in place.

But whilst that is ongoing the TUI and INTO will be discussing new entrant's pay and if they can get justice then that might be the out for all.

I hope new entrants get pay equality but is a completely separate issue. Like the JC is .
do new entrants want to do CP hours forever ? I hope it doesn't fudge the issue at hand here cos we are very close ....

petejmk

http://m.rte.ie/news/2016/0708/801210-teachers-school-disruption/

Bruton claiming ASTI refusal to continue with Croke Park hours until October to participate in talks will lead to disruption in schools. Laughable. When will somebody in the media ask 'how will this lead to disruption'?

man_no_plan

km79 wrote: »

I hope new entrants get pay equality but is a completely separate issue. Like the JC is .
do new entrants want to do CP hours forever ? I hope it doesn't fudge the issue at hand here cos we are very close ....

Close to what? Nothing will happen until September anyway and if the into/TUI manage to get concessions on new entrant pay in whatever form the asti will probably have to reballot.

Presumably the talks are to be held over the summer? There's little to be gained from staying outside the talks really apart from not appearing to be in bed with the DES, which is probably an important point really.

tosh999

"Close to what? Nothing will happen until September anyway and if the into/TUI manage to get concessions on new entrant pay in whatever form the asti will probably have to reballot."

Not only will they make some progress in relation to new entrant pay but I suggest that there will be some further alleviation of the POR embargo due to pressure from both unions and management bodies.

gaiscioch

km79 wrote: »

They can not on one hand continue giving away whilst with the other hand taking under FEMPI
We are either ALL in a financial crisis or we are not

On this point, James Reilly said on Newstalk this morning: "The first part of our job was to restore the economy in the last government and get people back to work. We've done that."

Mardy Bum

The new circular is staggering. Department of Education are obviously looking for an all out strike.

km79

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The new circular is staggering. Department of Education are obviously looking for an all out strike.

Or to scare people and hope for another ballot .
Which TBH is probably most likely scenario whatever some of us may think
You only have to look at the Facebook comments of people cribbing about an increment freeze
Sure we only see 40% of them anyway after tax