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So is Croke Park gone for the ASTI then?

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    #62
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    km79 wrote: »
    Or to scare people and hope for another ballot .
    Which TBH is probably most likely scenario whatever some of us may think
    You only have to look at the Facebook comments of people cribbing about an increment freeze
    Sure we only see 40% of them anyway after tax

    Increment freeze is the least of people's worries. The change to the CID arrangement is unbelievable.


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    #63
    Moody_mona
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭Moody_mona


    Scared was my first thought. But now I'm just angry!! I'm not loaded but the money is irrelevant at this point. Less than half of the s&s money spread out over a year, I wont notice it, but I can't stand that they think they can say we're not paying you for that supervision you've done for the past two years and you need to keep doing it????

    I dislike Croke Park hours but they're not the worst. I wouldn't mind continuing them if they could be used in a more productive way, and it meant we could sort out payscales and supervision.

    Very important to stick together. Text some mates from work. Make sure people aren't scared by this, that they're just wound up instead.


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    #64
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    The circular is dreadful and I hope the ASTI can stand strong and fight this. But there's no surprises in it - it's exactly as expected, just as they threatened. And the introduction is pretty much word for word from the last circular on implementation of HRA and FEMPI during theclast union split.


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    #65
    Moody_mona
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭Moody_mona


    Kyle Uninterested King wrote: »
    The circular is dreadful and I hope the ASTI can stand strong and fight this. But there's no surprises in it - it's exactly as expected, just as they threatened. And the introduction is pretty much word for word from the last circular on implementation of HRA and FEMPI during theclast union split.

    I know there's no surprises, and to be fair it's clear as day, but I almost find that more intimidating, laying out what we could have but instead we were bold and have this instead.


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    #66
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    Wow they even went after redundancy pay tucked nicely in at the end. I'm still pissed to be TUI and landed with this bloody farce but that is a pretty stark circular.


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    #67
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    Wow they even went after redundancy pay tucked nicely in at the end. I'm still pissed to be TUI and landed with this bloody farce but that is a pretty stark circular.

    FF/SF could make hay with this. I wonder will any independents raise their heads when tens of thousands of public sector workers are being treated like this.


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    #68
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,247 ✭✭✭✭km79


    It really is make or break time in September now
    They have laid all Teague cards on the table . They have gone for the shock and awe tactic as they have nothing else left
    Be interesting to see what happens now . Most likely it will all depend on what happens in the talks with INTO and TUI. If anything comes out of that on pay equalization then that Along with the threat to CIDs will most likely lead to a reballot which will be carried IMO


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    #69
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    It's just the usual sabre rattling, the first person to be sacked I'd say will be an instant martyr.

    At the end of the day the money is pittance compared to what the govt are getting out of teachers.

    Under Haddington Road the agreement was the establishment of a panel for non-permanent teachers, how has that been upheld?. Also the restoration of the S&S was HR, how was that upheld? It's obvious that the dept wants to lump everyone into Landsdown road and take account of the actual education system/teaching profession and where it's going.

    As someone posted on the fightback page, in 1940's teachers went on strike for 7 months to protect pay and ensure a decent professional standard.
    As regards CID's it's nothing new, I was speaking to a teacher who started in the early 80's and she said she had to do her time on short hours for 5 years before she got on full hours. Giving a CID after 2 years won't do anything for the 'hours' culture endemic in the profession. It wouldn't be done to a Doctor, Nurse, Paramedic, Firefigher, Garda, Dentist, Occupational Therapist.... etc etc. but yet teacher's are supposed to be 'thankful' for getting sucha cushy job and average 65k wage:rolleyes:.

    S&S is pittance, but it's still money that is owed. You can't just decide not to pay it for work done when you have been told you would be paid.


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    #70
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    km79 wrote: »
    It really is make or break time in September now
    They have laid all Teague cards on the table . They have gone for the shock and awe tactic as they have nothing else left
    Be interesting to see what happens now . Most likely it will all depend on what happens in the talks with INTO and TUI. If anything comes out of that on pay equalization then that Along with the threat to CIDs will most likely lead to a reballot which will be carried IMO

    Yup that's pretty much it, there'll be a rush to grant the TUI and INTO some crumbs from the table just enough to stoke up the flames and split the ASTI. I think the ASTI's way forward is solidarity with other unions who rejected LR.


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    #71
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,247 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Yup that's pretty much it, there'll be a rush to grant the TUI and INTO some crumbs from the table just enough to stoke up the flames and split the ASTI. I think the ASTI's way forward is solidarity with other unions who rejected LR.

    I now see a lot of people on Voices for Teachers Facebook page crying that they were not informed about the CID issue before voting.
    I mean REALLY?????? What planet were they on . Teachers are an embarrassment at times.
    Anyway they already what a reballot just for this.
    Crucial few months now. I can see us voting to bring back Croke Park hours . How demoralizing would that be


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    #72
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    km79 wrote: »
    I now see a lot of people on Voices for Teachers Facebook page crying that they were not informed about the CID issue before voting.
    I mean REALLY?????? What planet were they on . Teachers are an embarrassment at times.
    Anyway they already what a reballot just for this.
    Crucial few months now. I can see us voting to bring back Croke Park hours . How demoralizing would that be

    I don't look at facebook at all these days, its inhabited by idiots by the sounds of it.

    To be fair to everyone here, whatever side we were on, people knew exactly what they were voting for. If others didn't that's their own fault, the unions were clear the DES were clear , how could you not know the implications of the vote?

    September was a long way off when we voted. This is a phoney war at the minute and won't have any impact for 6 weeks yet. There is no loss in actual pay, just potential pay. If you can afford that you're okay.


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    #73
    feardeas
    Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭feardeas


    There's no surprise in the circular. There's no mention of going back to 2013 levels of pay in general although the withdrawal of the alleviation for those over 65k.

    The CID issues will not hurt those who got them in May. It will be an issue next year. However it was clearly forewarned. The dept have no choice but to implement the circular really. We are in a minority of the teaching profession.

    Personally had no gra for CP largely because of the wofal lack of imagination shown. Although the introduction of the five hours discretion really helped. It's going to 8 and then 10 in time.

    In terms of money. Let me say every cent counts and a 1500 increase all be it gross would be welcome. And I say that with no apologies and am as for the integrity of the profession as anyone. When it comes to diluting that there are far worse things than an hour a week.

    Overall the government are weak. They won't want much trouble. However if the guards etc are brought on side and its just us well then this circular will be made look like a nice picnic in a leafy park.

    As I say again and again I hope there's a strategy other than stomping our feet.


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    #74
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,927 ✭✭✭doc_17


    I still get annoyed and angry that a deal the government signed can be broken on their part with so little media scrutiny. But I never get surprised by them.

    The big issue now will be, do the ASTI ballot to withdraw from S&S before the outcome of talks between Dept and TUI. In industrial relations it's typical for unins to retaliate when something is imposed on them.

    So I'd expect the ASTI to announce a ballot on withdrawing from S&S to be held early in the school year so that they have their ducks lined up and use it as leverage to influence the talks they are not part of. If a timetable for pay equalisation is laid out by the end of October the ASTI will see that as a good outcome and probably re-ballot on LRA.


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    #75
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,927 ✭✭✭doc_17


    And just to state, the INTO will be irrelevant at these proposed talks, just as they have been for the past 6 years. So it's whatever the TUI can do.


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    #76
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    doc_17 wrote: »
    And just to state, the INTO will be irrelevant at these proposed talks, just as they have been for the past 6 years. So it's whatever the TUI can do.

    It would be better if the ASTI were there too though IMO.


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    #77
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,247 ✭✭✭✭km79


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    It would be better if the ASTI were there too though IMO.

    If they were then we could have closed this thread months ago and forgotten about ever starting a new one on fighting for any of our working conditions


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    #78
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    doc_17 wrote: »
    I still get annoyed and angry that a deal the government signed can be broken on their part with so little media scrutiny. But I never get surprised by them.

    The big issue now will be, do the ASTI ballot to withdraw from S&S before the outcome of talks between Dept and TUI. In industrial relations it's typical for unins to retaliate when something is imposed on them.

    So I'd expect the ASTI to announce a ballot on withdrawing from S&S to be held early in the school year so that they have their ducks lined up and use it as leverage to influence the talks they are not part of. If a timetable for pay equalisation is laid out by the end of October the ASTI will see that as a good outcome and probably re-ballot on LRA.

    It all hinges on s/s really. The croke park hours are no big deal really on a day to day basis as far as the running of schools is concerned.

    Supervision and substitution is part of the teaching contract since CP, so pulling out is a big deal. If the ASTI hold a ballot to withdraw it might not get carried and then you have a union in paralysis.


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    #79
    my friend
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,129 ✭✭✭my friend


    Thanks - please read the charter.


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    #80
    Frankly frank
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Frankly frank


    Q. Would people rather be in TUI or ASTI in September and reasons why ?


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    #81
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    I'm in TUI, would prefer ASTI because they're sticking to their guns and not rolling over on CP hours etc. Ridiculous the way TUI reballoted and recommended a Yes when all they got was a lot of promises of reviews.


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    #82
    Frankly frank
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Frankly frank


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    I'm in TUI, would prefer ASTI because they're sticking to their guns and not rolling over on CP hours etc. Ridiculous the way TUI reballoted and recommended a Yes when all they got was a lot of promises of reviews.

    Sure but leave aside CP hours , TUI at least payment for supervision.
    Asti make a big deal on CP but nothing real on pay for 6 years...


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    #83
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,247 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Frankly frank wrote: »
    Q. Would people rather be in TUI or ASTI in September and reasons why ?

    ASTI
    TUI members signed away their right to engage In ANY industrial action on ANY issue under LRA. So what's the point ?


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    #84
    Frankly frank
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Frankly frank


    km79 wrote: »
    ASTI
    TUI members signed away their right to engage In ANY industrial action on ANY issue under LRA. So what's the point ?

    Sure but it's for 2years, not forever


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    #85
    seavill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    Frankly frank wrote: »
    km79 wrote: »
    ASTI
    TUI members signed away their right to engage In ANY industrial action on ANY issue under LRA. So what's the point ?

    Sure but it's for 2years, not forever

    It's for two years this time until the next agreement is signed after that for another two years and so on and so on

    It has also been for last two years under last agreement and probably the two before that under first one


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    #86
    Frankly frank
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Frankly frank


    seavill wrote: »
    It's for two years this time until the next agreement is signed after that for another two years and so on and so on

    It has also been for last two years under last agreement and probably the two before that under first one



    So really if anything this proves Union membership is a only a further waste of money


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    #87
    seavill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    Frankly frank wrote: »
    seavill wrote: »
    It's for two years this time until the next agreement is signed after that for another two years and so on and so on

    It has also been for last two years under last agreement and probably the two before that under first one


    So really if anything this proves Union membership is a only a further waste of money

    Well seeing as the Asti are not under the agreement they can do what they want.
    The tui can only achieve gains through negotiations as a result of the above and let's be honest we know who holds the cards in those negotiations.

    People have outlined above the benefits.

    It's the same as car insurance house insurance health insurance life assurance salary protection. I presume you have some if not all of those. What benefits do you get from paying massive sums to them every year. None.
    Union is the same as all those they are all a complete waste of money until that one day you really need them. Then it is worth every penny


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    #88
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,247 ✭✭✭✭km79


    seavill wrote: »
    It's for two years this time until the next agreement is signed after that for another two years and so on and so on

    It has also been for last two years under last agreement and probably the two before that under first one

    I understand that
    however the last agreement was not full honoured unless the new one was signed so what's the point ?
    I'm glad at the moment to be with the asti


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    #89
    Frankly frank
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Frankly frank


    seavill wrote: »
    Well seeing as the Asti are not under the agreement they can do what they want.
    The tui can only achieve gains through negotiations as a result of the above and let's be honest we know who holds the cards in those negotiations.

    People have outlined above the benefits.

    It's the same as car insurance house insurance health insurance life assurance salary protection. I presume you have some if not all of those. What benefits do you get from paying massive sums to them every year. None.
    Union is the same as all those they are all a complete waste of money until that one day you really need them. Then it is worth every penny


    Cannot compare to car and house insurance, life / salary fair enough.

    Kidding yourself - saying Asti doing what they want.
    Not much solace in that on low pay.


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    #90
    Frankly frank
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Frankly frank


    km79 wrote: »
    I understand that
    however the last agreement was not full honoured unless the new one was signed so what's the point ?
    I'm glad at the moment to be with the asti

    Would it not be better to get paid for S&S which we have to do anyway for next 2 years and attempt negotiation around pay rather than disengaging , losing even more pay through strikes and gaining nothing like Asti ??


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    #91
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,247 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Frankly frank wrote: »
    Would it not be better to get paid for S&S which we have to do anyway for next 2 years and attempt negotiation around pay rather than disengaging , losing even more pay through strikes and gaining nothing like Asti ??

    It's not all about pay


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