So is Croke Park gone for the ASTI then?

r93kaey5p2izun

I'm TUI. I would prefer to be ASTI as I believe they are doing the right thing in refusing to sign up to LRA when pay inequality is not addressed and when the government has shown twice now that they will renege on their side of the bargain. I voted NO and wish the the unions were sticking together to fight for equality. I don't for one moment believe the TUI will achieve anything on this front through negotiations and I fear what else they will sneak in while we are under a no strike clause - just as they snook in the new pay scale when we were under CP.

I don't personally care much about CP hours (though I think they're a complete waste of time) and the loss of money is not that important in the grand scheme of things versus fighting for equality. I think the withdrawal of the Ward circular on CID entitlements is a disgusting bullying tactic. I understand how this puts many ASTI members in a very difficult position. But, many of those advocating for a reballot and acceptance of LRA on these grounds of protecting their conditions for the future are the very same people who have been berating union members who previously signed up to CP/HR for the same reason (protecting their conditions), allowing pay inequality to be brought in. They seem confident that, although signing up to previous agreements led to what they see as selling out NQTs, their signing up to another agreement now won't sell out those coming behind them.

So I would still prefer ASTI and would switch if possible. I think we need to press the reset button on agreements and negotiations with the government and stop this cycle of signing away our rights and conditions for stuff that isn't delivered.

Frankly frank

km79 wrote: »

It's not all about pay

It is all about pay
Are you are on inferior scale ?

Frankly frank

Kyle Uninterested King wrote: »

I'm TUI. I would prefer to be ASTI as I believe they are doing the right thing in refusing to sign up to LRA when pay inequality is not addressed and when the government has shown twice now that they will renege on their side of the bargain. I voted NO and wish the the unions were sticking together to fight for equality. I don't for one moment believe the TUI will achieve anything on this front through negotiations and I fear what else they will sneak in while we are under a no strike clause - just as they snook in the new pay scale when we were under CP.

I don't personally care much about CP hours (though I think they're a complete waste of time) and the loss of money is not that important in the grand scheme of things versus fighting for equality. I think the withdrawal of the Ward circular on CID entitlements is a disgusting bullying tactic. I understand how this puts many ASTI members in a very difficult position. But, many of those advocating for a reballot and acceptance of LRA on these grounds of protecting their conditions for the future are the very same people who have been berating union members who previously signed up to CP/HR for the same reason (protecting their conditions), allowing pay inequality to be brought in. They seem confident that, although signing up to previous agreements led to what they see as selling out NQTs, their signing up to another agreement now won't sell out those coming behind them.

So I would still prefer ASTI and would switch if possible. I think we need to press the reset button on agreements and negotiations with the government and stop this cycle of signing away our rights and conditions for stuff that isn't delivered.

You are right CP are a waste but they are not such a big deal in reality.
Proper pay, recruitment procedures, middle management so many other issues...

sheepinaheap

I qualified in 2012 and I am a TUI member. I am in the fortunate position of having a CID on the way having gone through the re-interview process last year. I respect everyone has their own reasons for voting the way they do but I strongly believe that the membership of the TUI should have stuck with our ASTI colleagues. Successive government have bullied and threatened the most vulnerable in our profession. Enough is enough as far as I'm concerned.

I cannot see the TUI achieving anything tangible towards pay restoration for recent graduates in their negotiations. Paschal Donohoe and Richard Bruton have already ruled that out. This is a weak government who are unlikely to last a full term. The opportunity was there to take the fight to them if we were united with the ASTI. Instead they have the TUI over a barrel and the ASTI's position is weakened after the TUI's acceptance of the LRA.

Having two separate unions does our profession no favours whatsoever.

evolving_doors

Frankly frank wrote: »

It is all about pay
Are you are on inferior scale ?

Accept LRA then you're signing up to accepting changes to Junior cert in any form they like, and that is a change in work practices no matter what way you look at it.

seavill

Frankly frank wrote: »

Cannot compare to car and house insurance, life / salary fair enough.

Kidding yourself - saying Asti doing what they want.
Not much solace in that on low pay.

I was clearly referring to Asti in terms of ability to strike. That was what we were talking about. Asti are not under any agreement so can strike if they choose. Tui cannot strike.

There is no point repeating that same line over and over. You have been given the benefits of being in the union. You have decided on negatives. Make your choice.

I guarantee you if you choose to have no Union and the Asti or tui manage to get concession on pay back to the one scale you will gladly take the benefits they fought for. You won't be complaining then

deiseindublin

Frankly frank wrote: »

Sure but leave aside CP hours , TUI at least payment for supervision.
Asti make a big deal on CP but nothing real on pay for 6 years...

You get sfa for S&S hours if you take tax, usc, prsi, pension and pension levy off it. It's not worth signing up to a new deal for, especially since the deals seem one sided and they can renege on their side of the deal without consequence. Our terms and conditions have been totally eroded and I'd prefer to keep t&c than get less than 1/2 of the S&S payment.

We're now doing S&S and CP hours as part of our contracts, it's not as if the money is for nothing.

feardeas

In ASTI. Voted as part of the minority in the last two ballots.

One thing particularly worries me. Look at the comments on the fb page for the union and fightback. A lot of the chat wouldn't be out of place in the UK labour wing from Corbyn supporters. Also saw a representation from fightback meeting Paul Murphy and Co.

Now it's a free country and all that but really. I was in ucd when Murphy ran for SU Pres. Inconsequential election but the chat was the same protest, protest and more protest.

If that is the ideology at play, fair enough but good Lord the road will be tough especially if we're at the gate and it's raining. I'd like to see how the integrity of our profession will be then. Now let me acknowledge the outcome of the ballot etc. I'm in the army, can't leave and I'll wear the boots but by God I'll not smile while doing so.

Chilli Con Kearney

Frankly frank wrote: »

It is all about pay
Are you are on inferior scale ?

I'm ASTI. It isn't all about pay. There are numerous issues at hand, including pay scales, the new watered down JC (not to mention the watered down LC if this goes ahead), S&S, croke park hours, initiative after initiative (with no funding, resources and time required to tick boxes).

If you're in this gig to focus on pay then you're in the wrong gig. The day we start chasing 2% rises ahead of conditions is a sad day. 2% of nothing is still nothing don't forget. We may never be rich but at least our conditions are (were) decent.

Obviously I am saying this without addressing the elephant of new entrants' scales. But I see that as different to 'pay'.

Frankly frank

seavill wrote: »

I was clearly referring to Asti in terms of ability to strike. That was what we were talking about. Asti are not under any agreement so can strike if they choose. Tui cannot strike.

There is no point repeating that same line over and over. You have been given the benefits of being in the union. You have decided on negatives. Make your choice.

I guarantee you if you choose to have no Union and the Asti or tui manage to get concession on pay back to the one scale you will gladly take the benefits they fought for. You won't be complaining then

Clearly it wasn't clear.
Haven't striked over pay in last number of years (only JC ) so will hardly start now. Big deal over ability to strike over 2 year deal.The 2 unions cannot even agree a strategy FFS.

You are also repeating your own point of view but obviously I am debating the general point and asking for variety of opinions (God forbid) and no I haven't been presented with tangible benefits.

Of course I would take the benefits - but they haven't fought for it.

the point you are not acknowledging at all is this - why pay a sub for an inferior pay scale on an ongoing basis?
On a lower income 350 is significant.

And yes I am entitled to complain when a union does not protect nor treat its members equally.

Frankly frank

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

I'm ASTI. It isn't all about pay. There are numerous issues at hand, including pay scales, the new watered down JC (not to mention the watered down LC if this goes ahead), S&S, croke park hours, initiative after initiative (with no funding, resources and time required to tick boxes).

If you're in this gig to focus on pay then you're in the wrong gig. The day we start chasing 2% rises ahead of conditions is a sad day. 2% of nothing is still nothing don't forget. We may never be rich but at least our conditions are (were) decent.

Obviously I am saying this without addressing the elephant of new entrants' scales. But I see that as different to 'pay'.

understood but how long is new entrant status - 5 years ? 10 years ? 25 years ?

No strategy + no action = disillusioned

seavill

Frankly frank wrote: »

seavill wrote: »

I was clearly referring to Asti in terms of ability to strike. That was what we were talking about. Asti are not under any agreement so can strike if they choose. Tui cannot strike.

There is no point repeating that same line over and over. You have been given the benefits of being in the union. You have decided on negatives. Make your choice.

I guarantee you if you choose to have no Union and the Asti or tui manage to get concession on pay back to the one scale you will gladly take the benefits they fought for. You won't be complaining then

Clearly it wasn't clear.
Haven't striked over pay in last number of years (only JC ) so will hardly start now. Big deal over ability to strike over 2 year deal.The 2 unions cannot even agree a strategy FFS.

You are also repeating your own point of view but obviously I am debating the general point and asking for variety of opinions (God forbid) and no I haven't been presented with tangible benefits.

Of course I would take the benefits - but they haven't fought for it.

the point you are not acknowledging at all is this - why pay a sub for an inferior pay scale on an ongoing basis?
On a lower income 350 is significant.

And yes I am entitled to complain when a union does not protect nor treat its members equally.

Not worth the effort if you can't even be civil.

If you don't like it don't pay. If you do then pay. None of us really care if you do or don't. Clearly your not a union member that is up for fighting for the profession so don't.

Good luck I haven't the interest is people who are only tryimg to create an argument

joebloggs32

sheepinaheap wrote: »

I qualified in 2012 and I am a TUI member. I am in the fortunate position of having a CID on the way having gone through the re-interview process last year. I respect everyone has their own reasons for voting the way they do but I strongly believe that the membership of the TUI should have stuck with our ASTI colleagues. Successive government have bullied and threatened the most vulnerable in our profession. Enough is enough as far as I'm concerned.

I cannot see the TUI achieving anything tangible towards pay restoration for recent graduates in their negotiations. Paschal Donohoe and Richard Bruton have already ruled that out. This is a weak government who are unlikely to last a full term. The opportunity was there to take the fight to them if we were united with the ASTI. Instead they have the TUI over a barrel and the ASTI's position is weakened after the TUI's acceptance of the LRA.

Having two separate unions does our profession no favours whatsoever.

You do realise that the ward report you are about to benefit from was achieved through negotiations during the HRA, despite people saying the TUI were in a weakened position.

Frankly frank

seavill wrote: »

Not worth the effort if you can't even be civil.

If you don't like it don't pay. If you do then pay. None of us really care if you do or don't. Clearly your not a union member that is up for fighting for the profession so don't.

Good luck I haven't the interest is people who are only tryimg to create an argument

Need to check your own tone in posts before pointing the finger.
Who are "us"?
I didn't ask you to care.
Do not cast aspirations thank you.
This is a discussion forum therefore there will be debate or argument as you call it.

joebloggs32

seavill wrote: »

It's for two years this time until the next agreement is signed after that for another two years and so on and so on

It has also been for last two years under last agreement and probably the two before that under first one

Hmmmm.....so I must have dreamt that I took part in a strike last year over the junior cert, and those strike placards in my garage are just a figment of my imagination.
This thread is getting a little like the GOP convention.

seavill

Was it not lunchtime protest last year for JC no?

km79

seavill wrote: »

Was it not lunchtime protest last year for JC no?

It was

joebloggs32

seavill wrote: »

Was it not lunchtime protest last year for JC no?

My mind works in academic years. Anyway it was a strike during the lifetime of the HRA.

seavill

I know what your saying but I thought that we were not allowed to strike about anything that falls within the agreement we signed but JC was outside that agreement so that's why we were able to do that.

Things like pay scales etc were part of the agreement so you can't strike about thrm.

That's just my recollection am open to correction it's been a very confusing time

km79

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-withholds-pay-rise-from-trainee-garda%C3%AD-in-industrial-row-1.2731658
We are not completely on our own

km79

ill just leave this here........
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teacher-talks-explore-restoration-of-allowances-1.2737844?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

History Queen

km79 wrote: »

ill just leave this here........
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teacher-talks-explore-restoration-of-allowances-1.2737844?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I got as far as "productivity measures in return" and lost the will to read on. Typical, give with one hand the take on the double with the other. I am post2012 and would love allowances to return but I have had my fill of free work thanks.

As far as I'm concerned unless it's a no-strings restoration of what has been robbed from us they can shove their allowances and productivity up whatever hole they pulled croke park and the new junior cert down out of.

km79

History Queen wrote: »

I got as far as "productivity measures in return" and lost the will to read on. Typical, give with one hand the take on the double with the other. I am post2012 and would love allowances to return but I have had my fill of free work thanks.

As far as I'm concerned unless it's a no-strings restoration of what has been robbed from us they can shove their allowances and productivity up whatever hole they pulled croke park and the new junior cert down out of.

Exactly !
At what point do people just say NO
No more !!!!
I was worried these talks would weaken the Asti position
This strengthens it

stanley1980

Could someone please explain what's happening (in very simple terms!!) re: increments and Croke Pk hours. I got a email from our principal saying significant changes/events are on the horizon depending which union you're in or not as the case may be! I'm a non-union member with a CID.

Mardy Bum

stanley1980 wrote: »

Could someone please explain what's happening (in very simple terms!!) re: increments and Croke Pk hours. I got a email from our principal saying significant changes/events are on the horizon depending which union you're in or not as the case may be! I'm a non-union member with a CID.

If you are not in TUI your increments are frozen. ASTI members are not taking part in Croke Park hours at present.

stanley1980

Thanks for replying. So am I right in saying that as things stand I won't have to do Croke Pk hours but won't get increments? I'm teaching since 2005- does that mean equate to €800 a year?

mirrorwall14

stanley1980 wrote: »

Thanks for replying. So am I right in saying that as things stand I won't have to do Croke Pk hours but won't get increments? I'm teaching since 2005- does that mean equate to €800 a year?

I believe so. Your increments depends on what point you've are at on the scale. If teaching since 2005 you are on the old salary scales and they are up on the Asti website

I'm not sure what is happening with s and s for the ASTI. They were threatened with non payment of that in september

seavill

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-may-close-if-teachers-demands-not-met-1.2749579

So they are going to pay people to do the supervision we were doing for free so they don't have to pay us the two lump sums. This will end up costing them more surely even over a short period

joebloggs32

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I believe so. Your increments depends on what point you've are at on the scale. If teaching since 2005 you are on the old salary scales and they are up on the Asti website

I'm not sure what is happening with s and s for the ASTI. They were threatened with non payment of that in september

ASTI and non union staff in C&C schools will not be paid for S&S. TUI staff getting close to €800 on to their salary this September and the same in 2017.
I am TUI, but if I were in the ASTI there is no way I would do the S&S for free. I presume there is/will be an ASTI directive on this.

theoldbreed

joebloggs32 wrote: »

ASTI and non union staff in C&C schools will not be paid for S&S. TUI staff getting close to €800 on to their salary this September and the same in 2017.
I am TUI, but if I were in the ASTI there is no way I would do the S&S for free. I presume there is/will be an ASTI directive on this.

I contacted the asti directly on this issue and they said that in order to withdraw from s and s there would need to be a ballot and that the head honchos are meeting in the coming weeks to make a decision about it.