So is Croke Park gone for the ASTI then?

Icsics

I am ASTI & opted out of S&S, will the reduction I pay cease in Sept does anybody know?

Fleawuss

seavill wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-may-close-if-teachers-demands-not-met-1.2749579

So they are going to pay people to do the supervision we were doing for free so they don't have to pay us the two lump sums. This will end up costing them more surely even over a short period

Are people doing work for free in schools? Like what? Curious about this: no axe to grind.

evolving_doors

Fleawuss wrote: »

Are people doing work for free in schools? Like what? Curious about this: no axe to grind.

There was an agreement that if we did it unpaid for two years then they would pay us back. Sooo, we did... But they didn't, so now do we keep doing it? I say nay!
Also people took a paycut not to do it.. So what happens if nobody does i
It's all messy.

Apart from that, you might count preparation we do at home/between classes/extra curricular/working on school policy comittees/doing courses outside school time/school tours/fundraising.etc... as free work, but others may say it's the usual voluntary-vocational-self-flagellation that is expected.:)

theLuggage

Icsics wrote: »

I am ASTI & opted out of S&S, will the reduction I pay cease in Sept does anybody know?

Same here, I doubt it. I'd say we will be paying that forever...

man_no_plan

[quote="Gebgbegb;100644456"

Apart from that, you might count preparation we do at home/between classes/extra curricular/working on school policy comittees/doing courses outside school time/school tours/fundraising.etc... as free work, but others may say it's the usual voluntary-vocational-self-flagellation that is expected.:)[/quote]

Whatever about the extra curricular etc, you can't reasonably argue that planning and preparation, marking etc is extra work you do for free that you shouldn't have to do.

We teach 22 hours per week. Surely there's a fair bit of 'extra' there built into the salary scale, certainly for those on the old payscale.

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

Whatever about the extra curricular etc, you can't reasonably argue that planning and preparation, marking etc is extra work you do for free that you shouldn't have to do.

We teach 22 hours per week. Surely there's a fair bit of 'extra' there built into the salary scale, certainly for those on the old payscale.

I'd say the salary scale (although that's a distant memory too!) is separate from class contact time. The salary scale recognises professional development in lieu of the fact that we don't charge a professional fee (doctors / solicitors etc).
I'm probably splitting hairs but I reckon doing prep outside school time at home at night and on weekends counts as extra unpaid labour.
What would a true 'work to rule' look like. As in, do everything 9-4 and no prep during lunch or at home? Is it possible?

solerina

The most dreaded post of the year arrived this morning ( I know I am lucky to have a job so don't attack me).
We got our back to school arrangements, what groups coming in when etc, our timetable and a blank TT to indicate our 1-9 preferences for S&S... I am still unsure if we have to do this, do you still fill in 9 and actually do 3 max per week ???? Or do we wait until the ASTI finally get their act together.

maude6868

I would assume that when or if ASTI teachers stop doing S&S they will have to pay 1700 a year for the pleasure seeing as those who opted out have to pay that each year. Only in Ireland do you have to pay NOT to do something.

man_no_plan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I'd say the salary scale (although that's a distant memory too!) is separate from class contact time. The salary scale recognises professional development in lieu of the fact that we don't charge a professional fee (doctors / solicitors etc).
I'm probably splitting hairs but I reckon doing prep outside school time at home at night and on weekends counts as extra unpaid labour.
What would a true 'work to rule' look like. As in, do everything 9-4 and no prep during lunch or at home? Is it possible?

9-4 is a 30 hour week if you do it 5 days for 33 weeks its only 990 hours. The 22 hours class contact is 735 hours per year. Whether its more or less than the OECD average that will soon be quoted, preparing your classes or marking students work would be considered part of your basic job description.

A work to rule would almost certainly see extra curricular and cp hours going. The m58/04 hours and school development planning would still need to be done but within school time I'd say.

maude6868

From Fightback page School Stewards should shortly receive a letter with a paragraph stating: "ASTI is aware that some schools had envisaged a return to school in August 2016 having set
aside a full day’s programme in fulfilment of Croke Park hours. ASTI members are directed
not to attend in such circumstances."

km79

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/croke-park-hours-days-in-august/

Maybe when people get an extra "day off" at the end of their summer holidays they may realize what an absolute waste of time these hours have become

Icsics

The new directive does not include attendance at Open Nights. This is 'voluntary', but surely if these hrs were CP last yr they should be classed as CP this yr....but no. This is what happens when u have principals in our union. We all know what will happen, pressure on the newer teachers. Disappointed in ASTI.

doc_17

I would imagine ASTI members still have to do S&S as they have not issued a directive to cease. It will take a ballot to change that. Meanwhile the TUI, forget about the INTO, will be in discussions with the Dept about restoration of the common basic scale. If that is restored, and that's a big if, then I'd imagine ASTI will swallow the CP hours and come on board LRA.

Mardy Bum

doc_17 wrote: »

I would imagine ASTI members still have to do S&S as they have not issued a directive to cease. It will take a ballot to change that. Meanwhile the TUI, forget about the INTO, will be in discussions with the Dept about restoration of the common basic scale. If that is restored, and that's a big if, then I'd imagine ASTI will swallow the CP hours and come on board LRA.

Schools won't be fit to run if S&S is pulled so this will be a big call. TUI are not going to get the scales realigned, that would have to be part of a wider public sector agreement. Department have mugged them off brilliantly.

evolving_doors

I see the Gardai are threatening strike action and ratcheting things up a notch.
Govt. staying silent.
It'll be a case of who gets there first..
Govt. restoring pay to those in LR or Gardai/teachers pushing their case with strikes.

joebloggs32

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I see the Gardai are threatening strike action and ratcheting things up a notch.
Govt. staying silent.
It'll be a case of who gets there first..
Govt. restoring pay to those in LR or Gardai/teachers pushing their case with strikes.

I reckon something could be announced at budget time along the lines of a timetable to restore pay for new entrants over a number years following the end of the LRA. The govt know the can't continue to ignore this issue as more and more public sector unions are coming together on this one. Setting out a time frame will probably be enough to prevent a head of steam building up.

evolving_doors

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I reckon something could be announced at budget time along the lines of a timetable to restore pay for new entrants over a number years following the end of the LRA. The govt know the can't continue to ignore this issue as more and more public sector unions are coming together on this one. Setting out a time frame will probably be enough to prevent a head of steam building up.

'setting out a timetable' was done before though, and renegade upon. it'll be more promises in return for more work... more work delivered more promises unkept.

doc_17

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Schools won't be fit to run if S&S is pulled so this will be a big call. TUI are not going to get the scales realigned, that would have to be part of a wider public sector agreement. Department have mugged them off brilliantly.

It's not such a big call as it has to be the next logical step from the ASTI, otherwise they may pack up and go home. The firemen have had some success and this is precendant setting. Now whether it will work out like that is another thing.

feardeas

By law the guards can not strike. They can do a blue flu job. Their new entrant pay is beyond an insult. They couldn't afford to rent a shoe box in Dublin. Do we want a society that teachers, nurses, guards, junior to mid level civil servants along with loads of private sector workers, aside from FB etc, have to have 5 in a two bed apartment to live in our capital city where most of the jobs are located. Dublin allowance might be needed.

However in relation to NQT in secondary. It was always tough. Remember the year I did my dip. Back in 03/04 the Independent had 4 pages of primary jobs and 1 page of secondary. No doubt it's very tough job wise but I'm not sure it was ever much different.

chases0102

England has a London allowance.

Has an equivalent ever been mooted here?

evolving_doors

chases0102 wrote: »

England has a London allowance.

Has an equivalent ever been mooted here?

Not while there is a surplus of teachers willing to fill the gaps. For NQT's in particular experience is everything. As we've seen with jobsbridge there are plenty willing to work for next to nothing.
They are slowly trying to incentivise nurses to stay here, why.. Because there's a deficit.
There's only one way a deficit is going to happen in teaching, that's to adopt the centralised placement system and limit applicants (like gardaí). Why would the govt. try to adopt that when their needs are being met?

theoldbreed

If there is a ballot on s and s and asti members withdraw, does that mean that those who are currently doing it will take the paycuts everyone else did earlier as well as not getting the payment the tui are getting?
By the way is the payment the tui are getting added to their salary just once or is it 800 extra for good?
Voices for teachers on Facebook is usually my go to but it's tiring on there lately.

Thank you

maude6868

I would imagine that yes they would have to take the cut of 1700 per year or else those who had opted out would have to have that 1700 restored and I can't see that happening. I'd say it would just be automatically deducted from salary by the Dept, same as it is for those who opted out. I think it's something that needs to be clarified before deciding en masse not to do S&S because it seems to me that many teachers don't realise the implications.

theoldbreed

maude6868 wrote: »

I would imagine that yes they would have to take the cut of 1700 per year or else those who had opted out would have to have that 1700 restored and I can't see that happening. I'd say it would just be automatically deducted from salary by the Dept, same as it is for those who opted out. I think it's something that needs to be clarified before deciding en masse not to do S&S because it seems to me that many teachers don't realise the implications.

Yeah I figured that's what would happen but couldn't find it written anywhere.

I also agree it's something that needs to be clarified, a lot of teachers in my school are just going along with what the more senior, more vocal members of staff are shouting.

km79

maude6868 wrote: »

I would imagine that yes they would have to take the cut of 1700 per year or else those who had opted out would have to have that 1700 restored and I can't see that happening. I'd say it would just be automatically deducted from salary by the Dept, same as it is for those who opted out. I think it's something that needs to be clarified before deciding en masse not to do S&S because it seems to me that many teachers don't realise the implications.

let's say this does happen
and then s and s comes back after a few months (which it will )
do the 1000s of teachers who had no option to opt out and take that small pay cut get the option then ? I know of many teachers who would rather have the extra class periods free for corrections etc than the 1700 gross pay ........

theoldbreed

km79 wrote: »

let's say this does happen
and then s and s comes back after a few months (which it will )
do the 1000s of teachers who had no option to opt out and take that small pay cut get the option then ? I know of many teachers who would rather have the extra class periods free for corrections etc than the 1700 gross pay ........

I highly doubt it. Anyone in my school who is still doing it couldn't opt out, me included, nobody is doing it by choice so they'd be screwed otherwise.
I don't think it will come to the point where s and s goes and if it does it'll be back.

maude6868

Yes, I believe it will prove far too messy to stop doing it when there are 2 different tiers affected ie. those who opted out and those who couldn't/wouldn't. It's not as simple as many seem to think.

r93kaey5p2izun

It is very messy and difficult to understand.

Really, to me it seems this €800 being added to the pay scale is nothing to do with S&S because those who opted out and took the €1700 cut will receive it. In reality this €800 is tied to the LRA and nothing else - if you're in LRA you get it irrespective of whether you do S&S and if you're not in LRA you don't get it.

I just can't understand the government's thinking on tying it to S&S at all. They know S&S is one of the most dangerous issues to mess with because of how it can close schools if it doesn't happen. I completely understand ASTI members wanting to stop participating if they don't receive the payment that is being labelled as for S&S, but at the same time I don't understand how the money was ever connected to S&S in the first place as those doing S&S are not benefiting from it over and above those not doing it.

solerina

With s S&S we used to be called for a max of 1 class and sign up for 3....this newer model where you basically sign up for all your free periods and can do up the 3 is what I don't like, often you have only 1 free period in the day and plan to use it photocopying (or whatever) and guaranteed that's the class that you get called for every week, even though you put it as number 9 on your options !!

joebloggs32

It is straightforward enough really what is happening with salaries.
Take someone in the TUI who does S&S. Their salary is going up by just under 800. Now a colleague who opted out of S&S must also rise by the same amount, thus remaining €1700 behind fir opting out.
The money being added on was agreed in the HRA but the gift pulled a fast one by making payment of this money only available to those who signed up to LRA.
Therefore, if ASTI staff do S&S they will this year be down just under €800 compared to their TUI counterparts this year, and if nothing changes in the next 12 months then a gap of almost €1600 would open up.