So is Croke Park gone for the ASTI then?

km79

joebloggs32 wrote: »

It is straightforward enough really what is happening with salaries.
Take someone in the TUI who does S&S. Their salary is going up by just under 800. Now a colleague who opted out of S&S must also rise by the same amount, thus remaining €1700 behind fir opting out.
The money being added on was agreed in the HRA but the gift pulled a fast one by making payment of this money only available to those who signed up to LRA.
Therefore, if ASTI staff do S&S they will this year be down just under €800 compared to their TUI counterparts this year, and if nothing changes in the next 12 months then a gap of almost €1600 would open up.

What was being argued above was what happens in an Asti school if all staff are instructed to pull out of s and s by the union

r93kaey5p2izun

joebloggs32 wrote: »

It is straightforward enough really what is happening with salaries.
Take someone in the TUI who does S&S. Their salary is going up by just under 800. Now a colleague who opted out of S&S must also rise by the same amount, thus remaining €1700 behind fir opting out.
The money being added on was agreed in the HRA but the gift pulled a fast one by making payment of this money only available to those who signed up to LRA.
Therefore, if ASTI staff do S&S they will this year be down just under €800 compared to their TUI counterparts this year, and if nothing changes in the next 12 months then a gap of almost €1600 would open up.

I don't think it is simple at all. If ASTI do S&S outside LRA they will be down €800, fine. But if they don't do S&S will they just be down €800 or €2500? Because currently those not doing S&S are down €1700 and the government surely won't allow a situation where TUI members signed up to LRA (CP hours etc) but not doing S&S lose €1700 while those not in LRA and refusing to do S&S lose only €800.

feardeas

If there is a chance that pay will be cut by not doing S and S that would surely have to be clearly said in the information before a ballot.

Have to say this looks like it will be great craic altogether. Has there been any word on the cracks between the other unions and the department on the pay scales? I've a feeling that is where any resolution might come from.

joebloggs32

Kyle Uninterested King wrote: »

I don't think it is simple at all. If ASTI do S&S outside LRA they will be down €800, fine. But if they don't do S&S will they just be down €800 or €2500? Because currently those not doing S&S are down €1700 and the government surely won't allow a situation where TUI members signed up to LRA (CP hours etc) but not doing S&S lose €1700 while those not in LRA and refusing to do S&S lose only €800.

If the ASTI don't do A&S it would have to put them €1700 behind the TUI staff

evolving_doors

I'm getting more confused the more I learn.
Rewind a bit.. what has S&S got to do with LR? I thought S&S came under Haddington Road.

joebloggs32

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I'm getting more confused the more I learn.
Rewind a bit.. what has S&S got to do with LR? I thought S&S came under Haddington Road.

Yes it was all agreed under Haddington Road. It would be worked for free for two years, and then they would bring it back not as an allowance but as a part of the main salary scale in two stages.
However the government moved the goalposts as they often do by making agreement to Lansdowne Road mandatory in order to receive the S&S money.

MrJones1973

If ASTI dont do S and s In schools where they are only Union this happens:
School closes or outside staff brought in.
I think ASTI media has been poor-you would think from reading this above that its all about money. You lose if u dont sign up to LR. Newsflash-its much broader than that
You must swallow all JC reforms-you cant continue with a JC dispute . Non English teachers largely clueless about how bad it is. Then the rot spreads to LC
No money has been agreed for Extra JC work. And its alot folks
You can whistle for any real deal on new entrants salaries.

feardeas

I actually think that the new junior cycle English is a breath of fresh air. The CBA pieces of work are extra, there's four I think (ASTI here so haven't been at intervals). However I think they could take the place of some house exam sessions, we have three a year and I'd chop one of them to compensate. Might work, I'm not sure. What I think is ridiculous is being directed to teach the new specification and then also directed to have nothing to do with assessment. Talk about being left with a certain part of the anatomy in the wind.

man_no_plan

feardeas wrote: »

However I think they could take the place of some house exam sessions, we have three a year and I'd chop one of them to compensate.

Was that not the plan all along?

evolving_doors

feardeas wrote: »

I actually think that the new junior cycle English is a breath of fresh air. The CBA pieces of work are extra, there's four I think (ASTI here so haven't been at intervals). However I think they could take the place of some house exam sessions, we have three a year and I'd chop one of them to compensate. Might work, I'm not sure. What I think is ridiculous is being directed to teach the new specification and then also directed to have nothing to do with assessment. Talk about being left with a certain part of the anatomy in the wind.

At the core is the issue of state certification by teachers of their own pupils. on an individual basis you mightn't mind, but it raises concerns like the fixing of grades in the UK,and pressure being put on teachers to alter grades or get students to resit the exam. Are all schools individual grades going to be made public (as per FG manifesto)?
How would common levels transfer over to the leaving cert?
Would 'short courses' mean that subjects are relegated, so some teachers are 'more important' than others?
Is there a national standard?
Fair enough if it's only 10% to add to the total grade, but is it the thin end of the wedge?
Do you abandon a core principal of your union to just get 'a little bit pregnant'?
Are there any special interests lined up to make a pretty penny?
Where is the evidence that it has worked in the UK, it appears to work ok in New Zealand... Can you take one aspect of one country's system, adapt it and say that the outcomes will be the same?
Teachers usually get paid for correcting, how much compensation are they due for this extra work, or, Maybe as you say it's just replacing a school test and there's no extra work,.
Why do some subjects have external examiners from the SEC, but other subjects have orals to be done within school or by a teacher from a neighbouring school (who pays in each case?).
Or maybe the junior cert doesn't really matter and we should do away with state certification altogether.

gaiscioch

I'm in an ASTI school. I was sent a request the other day to fill in S&S preferences on the timetable, instancing this 2014 circular as justification for it.

Are other ASTI members filling it in and leaving it up to the Union to decide the next step/not covering when requested, or are we instructed not to fill it in in the first place?

solerina

we got the S&S timetable to fill in too....as far as I know everyone just filled it in and returned it, nominating 1-9 as we did last year. No one seemed to know whether this was the right thing to do or not...some thought we could go back to nominating 3 periods and do 1...others said no....ASTI need to clarify this fully in fairness.

km79

solerina wrote: »

we got the S&S timetable to fill in too....as far as I know everyone just filled it in and returned it, nominating 1-9 as we did last year. No one seemed to know whether this was the right thing to do or not...some thought we could go back to nominating 3 periods and do 1...others said no....ASTI need to clarify this fully in fairness.

Nothing has changed ?

mirrorwall14

We don't have timetables yet never mind doing s and s. And we're back in school in less than a week. TUI school

doc_17

It'll be the same for the ASTI this year, list all your classes off

Icsics

S&S can't be withdrawn without a ballot apparently & one weeks notice has to be given if it's rejected in a ballot.

feardeas

Gebgbegb wrote: »

At the core is the issue of state certification by teachers of their own pupils. on an individual basis you mightn't mind, but it raises concerns like the fixing of grades in the UK,and pressure being put on teachers to alter grades or get students to resit the exam. Are all schools individual grades going to be made public (as per FG manifesto)?
How would common levels transfer over to the leaving cert?
Would 'short courses' mean that subjects are relegated, so some teachers are 'more important' than others?
Is there a national standard?
Fair enough if it's only 10% to add to the total grade, but is it the thin end of the wedge?
Do you abandon a core principal of your union to just get 'a little bit pregnant'?
Are there any special interests lined up to make a pretty penny?
Where is the evidence that it has worked in the UK, it appears to work ok in New Zealand... Can you take one aspect of one country's system, adapt it and say that the outcomes will be the same?
Teachers usually get paid for correcting, how much compensation are they due for this extra work, or, Maybe as you say it's just replacing a school test and there's no extra work,.
Why do some subjects have external examiners from the SEC, but other subjects have orals to be done within school or by a teacher from a neighbouring school (who pays in each case?).
Or maybe the junior cert doesn't really matter and we should do away with state certification altogether.

Lots of issues raised there. I have been teaching well over a decade, marked for state exams for 9 years and believe in the integrity of the profession as much as you do or anybody else.

The core is state certification and a national standard. The proposals in my view gave that. The classroom work will be reported on separately following the issue of the state results. Ask yourself how much value will be left on them? I believed then and now that it was a face saving mechanism.

As for the 10%. That, as far as i know, is based on a report on the experience of doing the classroom work. It will, in the case of english, ask the student to reflect on the writing, editing and re-writing process. AS someone who only used those in third level I think it will be most beneficial for students and could actually lead to a stage where they rather than us have to take more responsibility for their work. It will be marked as part of the exam in June/July I believe.

That is no different than the GI in LC geography or the special study in history. Anyone that has marked LC geography can attest to the fact that the difference in quality between the exceptional reports and the paper can be revealing.

At the end of the day I think it will be resolved at some stage, all disputes are.

Apologies for wandering off topic and also if I come across as a bit contrary, it's late August and we all know what that means, the three best reasons are almost over

TheDriver

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We don't have timetables yet never mind doing s and s. And we're back in school in less than a week. TUI school

Have you been given a reason as to why? There may be a genuine reason why timetables couldn't be issued yet

r93kaey5p2izun

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We don't have timetables yet never mind doing s and s. And we're back in school in less than a week. TUI school

No timetable here either (also TUI). But we've never received them before first day back. It would be nice to have some idea what you're facing into but it's always a complete mystery until day 1. I'm always amazed how other schools manage to have it done but we're always left waiting.

joebloggs32

Kyle Uninterested King wrote: »

No timetable here either (also TUI). But we've never received them before first day back. It would be nice to have some idea what you're facing into but it's always a complete mystery until day 1. I'm always amazed how other schools manage to have it done but we're always left waiting.

They are obliged to have them ready at least two weeks in advance of the return to school to allow you nominate your preference's for S&S

katiecork

No timetable here either- management obviously feels no obligation to comply. Over the years this has been persistently queried by several staff. Never get an answer though.

2011abc

No timetable here and never have had until ( at least!) first day back .Utter joke when 'best practice' is rammed down our throats non stop . Also returning early despite directive as I believe MANY schools are with vague promise of days grace . Unions turned a blind eye to schools / principals abusing Jobridge and this starting to look like more of the same . General defeatist attitude of "ah sure a deal will be done and we will have to do the hours eventually anyway " abounds .

thefasteriwalk

No timetable here either. Never is. Dual school. We'll lucky if we even have it on the first day back. Wasn't part of CP or LRA getting timetables by last day in July or something like that?

Mardy Bum

Staggering that there are so many schools with no timetables at this stage. There may be exceptional circumstances some years but from what some posters have said this seems to be a normal course of events. Poor planning by management clearly is a problem. For those in these sorts of schools does this problem (inabilty to plan/complete important activities) arise in other matters? Or is it just timetabling which is obviously a very complex task?

thefasteriwalk

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Staggering that there are so many schools with no timetables at this stage. There may be exceptional circumstances some years but from what some posters have said this seems to be a normal course of events. Poor planning by management clearly is a problem. For those in these sorts of schools does this problem (inabilty to plan/complete important activities) arise in other matters? Or is it just timetabling which is obviously a very complex task?

Constantly. Day-to-day substitution roster, in-house exams, mock exams, everything. It's really frustrating.

r93kaey5p2izun

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Staggering that there are so many schools with no timetables at this stage. There may be exceptional circumstances some years but from what some posters have said this seems to be a normal course of events. Poor planning by management clearly is a problem. For those in these sorts of schools does this problem (inabilty to plan/complete important activities) arise in other matters? Or is it just timetabling which is obviously a very complex task?

I find things are usually done properly once they are eventually done but nothing is ever on schedule and everything takes twice as long as necessary to plan or complete. Things often get postponed by a term, or even a year, rather then run as originally decided. Having been involved in the planning groups for a couple of these things, the common denominator is a principal who trusts nobody, won't delegate even the most trivial of tasks, must ok absolutely every tiny detail down to whether table coverings are even.

mirrorwall14

Ours has on occasions appeared online the night before school. Other years we got it in July. It's varies wildly

doc_17

We haven't one either, due in part to a teacher declining a job in our school and the relevant HR in ETB are sick and on annual leave. So it could involve a reshuffle depending on the subjects of the next person on the panel.

But it's Rae we would see it anyway before day 1.

km79

http://m.rte.ie/news/2016/0823/811462-tui-pay-allowance/

But wait wait wait weren't they "promised " this would be sorted by now ......so glad Asti members were brave enough to resist the new "deal"

DubPrincess

Long time reader here but new poster, now that all schools are back I was just wondering what in general has been the approach to Croke Park hours by management in ASTI and mixed schools?

We were back last Thursday( days that we have been allocated discretionary days for) and Calendar was one of the items on agenda, this usually involves just penciling in of dates for staff, parent teacher meetings etc. This time Principal reasoned under JMB advice that we really should only schedule meetings which fall under the Pre Croke Park hours, which would be 3 PT meetings and then just wait and see on what happens in relation to the Croke Park hours. He was definitely not in favour of committing to other dates as obviously if the dispute continues and these dates are set in stone the hours would be lost, this is fair enough from management I suppose. However most of us distinctly got the impression that management and the JMB believe this dispute will be resolved reasonably shortly and would be an ASTI capitulation on doing the hours, would this be the belief in general??

We were also then asked how we felt about committing to the school open day, a Sunday afternoon in November. We were told that this was something the ASTI had said could go ahead no problem. A few people raised concerns and said that if management were willing to wait and see what would happen with the Croke Park hours then ASTI teachers should just do the same and not commit to an open evening at the moment. This didn't go down well and we were told an open day was crucial to the enrolment and survival of the school.