So is Croke Park gone for the ASTI then?

evolving_doors

DubPrincess wrote: »

Long time reader here but new poster, now that all schools are back I was just wondering what in general has been the approach to Croke Park hours by management in ASTI and mixed schools?

We were back last Thursday( days that we have been allocated discretionary days for) and Calendar was one of the items on agenda, this usually involves just penciling in of dates for staff, parent teacher meetings etc. This time Principal reasoned under JMB advice that we really should only schedule meetings which fall under the Pre Croke Park hours, which would be 3 PT meetings and then just wait and see on what happens in relation to the Croke Park hours. He was definitely not in favour of committing to other dates as obviously if the dispute continues and these dates are set in stone the hours would be lost, this is fair enough from management I suppose. However most of us distinctly got the impression that management and the JMB believe this dispute will be resolved reasonably shortly and would be an ASTI capitulation on doing the hours, would this be the belief in general??

We were also then asked how we felt about committing to the school open day, a Sunday afternoon in November. We were told that this was something the ASTI had said could go ahead no problem. A few people raised concerns and said that if management were willing to wait and see what would happen with the Croke Park hours then ASTI teachers should just do the same and not commit to an open evening at the moment. This didn't go down well and we were told an open day was crucial to the enrolment and survival of the school.

Open day is 100% voluntary now as it was. cp is dead in ASTI. Attend the open day if you like.

DubPrincess

Yeah I was hoping that these CP hours would be dead and gone too, still hope they will be I hate them. However distinctly got the impression that JMB believe all will be resolved shortly and lets just see what we can get people to do before the issue is solved.

evolving_doors

DubPrincess wrote: »

Yeah I was hoping that these CP hours would be dead and gone too, still hope they will be I hate them. However distinctly got the impression that JMB believe all will be resolved shortly and lets just see what we can get people to do before the issue is solved.

I get that feeling too !

Although it looks like TUI are finding out that it's not all milk and honey and things won't be delivered as soon as they had 'expected'... surprise surprise.

doc_17

All disputes are ultimately resolved. I get the sense that a lot of people on here would like to see the TUI fail to resolve the NQT pay issue, and I find that incredible.

evolving_doors

doc_17 wrote: »

All disputes are ultimately resolved. I get the sense that a lot of people on here would like to see the TUI fail to resolve the NQT pay issue, and I find that incredible.

All disputes are indeed ultimately resolved. It's the 'when' is the main concern. There was a dispute resolved by joining haddington road, so the ASTI kept their side of the bargain but alas they have to join up to yet another 'resolution' in order for the previous agreement to be honoured (and the promise of no further action on the new JC... which has nothing to do with bailing out the banks IIRC).
So to be honest I probably have a little schadenfreude going on.

Out of interest, Are the TUI getting what they were promised after they've agreed to sign up to Lansdown Road?
Like... getting all they were promised ...now?

Benicetomonty

doc_17 wrote: »

All disputes are ultimately resolved. I get the sense that a lot of people on here would like to see the TUI fail to resolve the NQT pay issue, and I find that incredible.

By resolve you mean sometime after 2018, pending whatever 'agreement' comes after Lansdowne? Subjecting NQTs to 2 more years minimum of pay inequality? In that context, I think many people think a failure by the TUI would actually put pressure on the leadership to fall in with the ASTI, which would mean a united front and actual progress on the issue.

doc_17

Why would I mean after 2018? I'd like to see hem getting it done with their current discussions, which I hope they do.

coillsaille

There's a bit of confusion in our school over PT meetings and circular 58/04. Some staff think we should have PTMs for all 5 year groups with three after school and two during school time. Management are of the view that we just have PTMs for three year groups, all after school, and cancel the PTMs for the other two year groups. Can anyone here offer any insight on this?

Benicetomonty

doc_17 wrote: »

Why would I mean after 2018? I'd like to see hem getting it done with their current discussions, which I hope they do.

Lansdowne doesnt expire till 2018. And there's no way pay will be restored fully in its lifetime, especially if the government get the ASTI to sign up.

Benicetomonty

coillsaille wrote: »

There's a bit of confusion in our school over PT meetings and circular 58/04. Some staff think we should have PTMs for all 5 year groups with three after school and two during school time. Management are of the view that we just have PTMs for three year groups, all after school, and cancel the PTMs for the other two year groups. Can anyone here offer any insight on this?

Other two meetings meant to be half in half out but Im fairly sure what youve described is also an option in order to avoid affecting tuition time. Will probably mean you will have to take or make a lot of phone calls from and to parents of the year groups that get cancelled though, essentially done in your own time. Not ideal.

solerina

coillsaille wrote: »

There's a bit of confusion in our school over PT meetings and circular 58/04. Some staff think we should have PTMs for all 5 year groups with three after school and two during school time. Management are of the view that we just have PTMs for three year groups, all after school, and cancel the PTMs for the other two year groups. Can anyone here offer any insight on this?

I thought the agreement was half in half out according to a circular mentioned here last week, if that's the case there are 3 out so there should be two in...those are the two your P plans to cancel I assume.

judeboy101

solerina wrote: »

I thought the agreement was half in half out according to a circular mentioned here last week, if that's the case there are 3 out so there should be two in...those are the two your P plans to cancel I assume.

3 staff are half in half out and 3pt are out (other two are not). Most schools seem to be doing 1st,3rd and 6th and leaving 2nd and 5th/ty pendulum Ng resolution.

km79

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/asti-to-ballot-on-industrial-action-over-new-teachers-pay-and-lansdowne-road-agreement/

judeboy101

km79 wrote: »

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/asti-to-ballot-on-industrial-action-over-new-teachers-pay-and-lansdowne-road-agreement/

This is the only chance that any teacher in any union (or none) has to show how much we detest the two tier system. I really hope it is a resounding yes in support of equality of pay. I am in the position that I pay my school NOT to do S&S which I have never done since beginning as a teacher.id rather teach my students 33extra hrs a year than sit in a circle holding a stuffed toy telling everyone 2interesting things about myself. As for the new junior cycle, the problem with treating every kid as a precious individual snowflake is brilliant until the sun starts shining.

deiseindublin

Well done ASTI, just hope the teachers on the ground don't lose their nerve!

maude6868

If s&s is withdrawn will teachers be deducted 1700 at source? I'm sure they will as those who opted out have to pay 1700. This needs to be clarified as it is an important issue and has never been made clear to teachers.

deiseindublin

Those that never did it would then be deducted twice for not doing the one job? A mess, no matter what happens.

DES are so wrong on this, originally supposed to be getting this S&S money now, was never contingent on signing up to the next agreement, don't know why/how it wasn't legally challenged.

km79

maude6868 wrote: »

If s&s is withdrawn will teachers be deducted 1700 at source? I'm sure they will as those who opted out have to pay 1700. This needs to be clarified as it is an important issue and has never been made clear to teachers.

What about the 2 years work already done and not paid for ?

maude6868

It's a complete mess but I think teachers don't know that they probably will be deducted 1700 at source if they refuse to do s&s. Those who already don't do it are deducted by that amount. That s&s fiasco should have been challenged long ago, some working for nothing and others paying not to do something they never did in the first place. How is that legal.

deiseindublin

No more than how it is legal to promise money for S&S on X date and then renege on it if the next agreement isn't signed. You may as just well tell us that we have to sign up to every suggestion they ever come out with and may as well give in now, especially if you're TUI.

judeboy101

maude6868 wrote: »

It's a complete mess but I think teachers don't know that they probably will be deducted 1700 at source if they refuse to do s&s. Those who already don't do it are deducted by that amount. That s&s fiasco should have been challenged long ago, some working for nothing and others paying not to do something they never did in the first place. How is that legal.

I'm no business/economics teacher but if the penalty for opting out of s&s is a fixed amount then over a 30year career both natural inflation and increments will eventually absorb its effect? Its lovely like a pub selling pints for the same price for 30 years. Join me in the ranks of free classes and free lunchtimes comrades the 20 quid a paycheck hit is worth every penny.

franktennis

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'm no business/economics teacher but if the penalty for opting out of s&s is a fixed amount then over a 30year career both natural inflation and increments will eventually absorb its effect? Its lovely like a pub selling pints for the same price for 30 years. Join me in the ranks of free classes and free lunchtimes comrades the 20 quid a paycheck hit is worth every penny.

I agree. Free periods where I can plan and be more productive and free lunch for mental well being. Yes money is important but for once let's stick together for this one and see how it plays out. Great progress today and two ballots to come. The equal pay ballot for all has to happen. when we get it which I think is a certainly within the next year.

evolving_doors

franktennis wrote: »

I agree. Free periods where I can plan and be more productive and free lunch for mental well being. Yes money is important but for once let's stick together for this one and see how it plays out. Great progress today and two ballots to come. The equal pay ballot for all has to happen. when we get it which I think is a certainly within the next year.

I think people are gradually beginning to realise that giving up a lunchtime for free is just not on. Since when did that become a norm?

Are there other jobs where someone is informed -after they start and sign a contract- oh by the way you have to work through lunch!!! And you're thinking... but I need to do my 'normal' work during lunchtime!

Oh! you do that at the weekend... public sector creaming it and all that...

maybe I shouldn't have 'splashed out' on that night out during the boom, but you know as the politicians tell us "we all over-borrowed/partied enjoyed the spoils didn't we?" So now we have to pay.

I've put on the green jersey long enough.. and for what... gratitude towards teachers and other public sector schmucks, you gotta be kidding.

man_no_plan

maude6868 wrote: »

If s&s is withdrawn will teachers be deducted 1700 at source? I'm sure they will as those who opted out have to pay 1700. This needs to be clarified as it is an important issue and has never been made clear to teachers.

Surely they just don't get the additional payment that is being added to the scale? What's the point in adding it on to take it off again?

The position of most people calling for a no vote was that there would be no change in take hone pay for the majority of teachers.

Financially, asti members will be no worse off than last year. The problem is that in TUI they will get their increments and s&s which moves the pay levels apart.

If the DES were to pay ASTI members for s&s they'd have nothing to hold over them. As many have rightly said though, this should have been nothing to do with the LRA.

While I don't think that the ASTI approach has been the correct one I agree that they have to take action at this point because they are goibgvto be well and truly ****ed over if they don't. The reasons I think the ASTI were wrong are due to the war on three fronts now created, and that I think theres not much going on in the line of strategy. Finally, the vote in May was never going to be end game, I don't think most ASTI members (or teachers in general, ASTI are the only obes involved here though, not trying to offend anyone) are tuned in enough to have realised this. There was plenty of back slapibg and cheering, now the dust has settled and something has to happen. I would fear for a roll over on the ballot for strike action when it is issued.

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

Surely they just don't get the additional payment that is being added to the scale? What's the point in adding it on to take it off again?

The position of most people calling for a no vote was that there would be no change in take hone pay for the majority of teachers.

Financially, asti members will be no worse off than last year. The problem is that in TUI they will get their increments and s&s which moves the pay levels apart.

If the DES were to pay ASTI members for s&s they'd have nothing to hold over them. As many have rightly said though, this should have been nothing to do with the LRA.

While I don't think that the ASTI approach has been the correct one I agree that they have to take action at this point because they are goibgvto be well and truly ****ed over if they don't. The reasons I think the ASTI were wrong are due to the war on three fronts now created, and that I think theres not much going on in the line of strategy. Finally, the vote in May was never going to be end game, I don't think most ASTI members (or teachers in general, ASTI are the only obes involved here though, not trying to offend anyone) are tuned in enough to have realised this. There was plenty of back slapibg and cheering, now the dust has settled and something has to happen. I would fear for a roll over on the ballot for strike action when it is issued.

I agree with the war on three fronts analysis especially when we have no allies. It looks to me like the Asti are letting the '3rd front' aka junior cert fall on the backburner for the moment, which is quite sensible as it is the one that will need time to allow more subjects to be introduced and not assessed, thus putting pressure on dept to sort it before it becomes a farce imho. The timing Ng of the ballot result plus 2weeks notice of action seems designed to allow the jmb and des time to recruit alternates to cover s&s. A nice stroke by Asti would be to issue directive to allow teachers to block teach 2 hrs of junior/leaving cert classes a day to keep the Joe Duffy mammy brigade on side

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

A nice stroke by Asti would be to issue directive to allow teachers to block teach 2 hrs of junior/leaving cert classes a day to keep the Joe Duffy mammy brigade on side

The ASTI don't run schools though do they can't do that. Every student is entitled to be taught.

The only farce with JC is that ASTI members don't actually know what is involved and aren't voting from a position of knowledge. There is no teacher assessment for state certification, that was the main argument against and is now gone.

If ASTI are taking action over new entrant pay this should be coordinated with TUI and the public service generally. I know many here will say let TUI do what they like but unity would help.

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

The ASTI don't run schools though do they can't do that. Every student is entitled to be taught.

The only farce with JC is that ASTI members don't actually know what is involved and aren't voting from a position of knowledge. There is no teacher assessment for state certification, that was the main argument against and is now gone.

If ASTI are taking action over new entrant pay this should be coordinated with TUI and the public service generally. I know many here will say let TUI do what they like but unity would help.

True they don't run schools, but publically offering 2hr blocks to support exam years is very good optics. I think the new des video explains it well enough. Having to sit down with a student and a parent and justify the mark you gave their child? A student arriving into 5th year chemistry or accountancy having no idea if they are H1 or O8 material due to common level junior cycle exams? The exposure of short courses under TTIP to private sector delivery?

2011abc

**** has just hit the fan ! Circular released saying ASTI teachers 'are not to receive preference ' ( ie to be discriminated against ...) in joint Union schools ( only ?) for part time / top up hours .Damn near all out strike territory in my opinion.Certainly instant work to rule .Will be interesting to see how this pans out .Dept playing hard ball now for quite some time especially since dept general secretary went on solo run shooting his mouth off .
We should follow lead of LUAS and bus workers .Dont even dream of caring about 'public opinion ' .Thats what has us where we are .

km79

https://www.facebook.com/GregorKerrForINTOPresident/photos/a.655487387923229.1073741827.654697721335529/701847676620533/?type=3&theater&notif_t=scheduled_post_published&notif_id=1473611404155709

Bullying
No more no less
Outrageous

deiseindublin

I'd say this will be all out war if it's as reported.

Union membership can't be used as grounds for discrimination from reading this:
http://www.ihrec.ie/your-rights/what-is-equality/frequently-asked-question.html