South Africa v Ireland, Second Test. Match Thread

Tigerandahalf

Next week will be a step too far I think. Test series wins don't come easy and I think we had our chance today. Not many teams win at that venue.

I thought Jared Payne was superb again today. He is such a good ball player. I don't think Rob Kearney will get many more caps with that guy around.
We have great strength in depth now in the pack with Tom McCartney and possibly Bundee Aki coming onstream there is a great platform.

Comparing this Ire backline to the one of 10 years ago the difference in size is significant especially from 9 to 13. With Stringer Rog Darcy and BOD we were physically light and a team like S Africa could bully us. The last couple of games that hasn't happened.

I think we still have a problem with a lack of creativity in the backline and seizing our chances when there is space to run into. Watching NZ and the likes of Brad Barritt they are superb at that.

irishbucsfan

Hagz wrote: »

The Boks did a really good job of holding the tackler in the ruck and disguising good ball as unplayable. Not sure how Ireland can adjust to that for next week. Just try their hardest to wrestle free I guess.

Yeah I noticed that in the first half quite often. It's the sort of area where Joe is very detailed though so could be something he has an answer for.

The Rape of Lucretia

LorMal wrote: »

Is there something in the Irish mindset that makes us feel that we have to defend a lead rather than keeping up the winning momentum?
We have seen this so many times - the AB match being the most obvious example.

I dont think there is. Its only a perception we have, and that everyone has, to some extent about their team.
We never ascribe the same thinking when we pull a game out of the fire - we applaud our daring,courage, skill, fitness, etc as the cause of our win. And dont ask about a midset flaw in the opposition.
When it happens to you, it strikes you more and you wonder how you let it slip. When you are the one doing it to someone else, you claim the credit, rather than it being due to their weakness.
(look at all the late goals going on in France for example)

vienne86

Any injury concerns for next week?

AbusesToilets

Thoughts on Gilroy tonight? Hard to tell from a ****ty stream, but I thought he made some nice breaks.

Sean Kinsella

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Next week will be a step too far I think. Test series wins don't come easy and I think we had our chance today. Not many teams win at that venue.

I thought Jared Payne was superb again today. He is such a good ball player. I don't think Rob Kearney will get many more caps with that guy around.
We have great strength in depth now in the pack with Tom McCartney and possibly Bundee Aki coming onstream there is a great platform.

I think we still have a problem with a lack of creativity in the backline and seizing our chances when there is space to run into. Watching NZ and the likes of Brad Barritt they are superb at that.

Rob Kearney has lost a yard of his previously electric pace and there's no question that Payne is the better option; I wonder if Joe doesn't see it that way.....

I agree about Aki and I can't wait to see him in international green; when does he qualify exactly?

Billysays no

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

We didnt have a bench to change up. It would have been a change down. Thats why it had to be a flogging of those on the pitch to the almost end in the hope they could hold out.
The bench picked was not our best bench for this game in isolation. It was with more than an eye on next week.

thanks for that. as ever the bench is really not used. honestly, my heart is broken. as a team you get destroyed simply because your tired. so joe did a great thing by providing an exciting team. god did he **** up by not providing a freshened option. god joe. how can you not even see it?

Hagz

I thought everybody played well. I think things might had been different had we stronger options coming off the bench in the front row. We had them under serious pressure even when Redlinghuys came on the field, but that advantage kind of slipped away with the departure of Furlong and McGrath (and I suppose Quinn Roux). The altitude definitley played its part. Guys were giving up easy yardage and slipping off tackles in the last quarter of that game. It's all set up now for a great final test, but I would put us as favourites and be mightily disappointed should we fall short.

irishbucsfan

Hagz wrote: »

I thought everybody played well. I think things might had been different had we stronger options coming off the bench in the front row. We had them under serious pressure even when Redlinghuys came on the field, but that advantage kind of slipped away with the departure of Furlong and McGrath (and I suppose Quinn Roux). The altitude definitley played its part. Guys were giving up easy yardage and slipping off tackles in the last quarter of that game. It's all set up now for a great final test, but I would put us as favourites and be mightily disappointed should we fall short.

I thought McGrath was the first to show real signs of tiredness. Missed two key tackles for their tries. Considering how good he was in the first test we really could have done with him at his best in that 2nd half, must have been completely drained.

Billysays no

anyway i do have Jason kokrak at 250/1 for the us open. so i'll go there instead ;-)

Clegg

Hendo, McGrath, Heaslip, Murray and Jackson have led the charge in the two tests. They've also took an absolute battering over 160 minutes. God help them next week. They're irreplaceable at present so they'll all start. There's no one of similar quality to replace them.

Billysays no

Clegg wrote: »

Hendo, McGrath, Heaslip, Murray and Jackson have led the charge in the two tests. They've also took an absolute battering over 160 minutes. God help them next week. They're irreplaceable at present so they'll all start. There's no one of similar quality to replace them.

can i throw an idea at you. first i agree how tired the team looks. so try something different. marmion, push forward rather than murray crash stuff (i did promise i wouldn't say it but i simply cannot contain myself with murray) . i am most disappointed with myself. i can no longer even promise a decent opinion (not that anybody thought i had a decent opinion)

MJohnston

Billysays no wrote: »

can i throw an idea at you. first i agree how tired the team looks. so try something different. marmion, push forward rather than murray crash stuff (i did promise i wouldn't say it but i simply cannot contain myself with murray) . i am most disappointed with myself. i can no longer even promise a decent opinion (not that anybody thought i had a decent opinion)

How do you do any of that when you're not in possession?

Adbrowne

Billysays no wrote: »

can i throw an idea at you. first i agree how tired the team looks. so try something different. marmion, push forward rather than murray crash stuff (i did promise i wouldn't say it but i simply cannot contain myself with murray) . i am most disappointed with myself. i can no longer even promise a decent opinion (not that anybody thought i had a decent opinion)

why do you bother posting here when you obviously dont watch the games

sydthebeat

MJohnston wrote: »

How do you do any of that when you're not in possession?

Don't feed it, it obviously only thrives on confrontation.

The phrase "Murray crash ball" is so obviously laughable it's practically ironic at this stage.

Buer

We died a death in the second half. The Boks came out with a different approach and played to their strengths, stretching us. We looked vulnerable again in midfield without Payne, I have to say although I'd be loathe to take him away from 15.

Nobody stepped up and made a big, momentum changing play in midfield when we really needed it.

Coetzee emptied the bench, bringing in local players who were pumped up with a point to prove. We (slowly) brought in guys who barely registered at all whilst on the pitch, I'm afraid, and it told.

Fatigue cost us and we made some very sloppy errors not only in terms of tackling but just losing concentration. If we had come away with 3 points rather than a penalty against us for crossing, I think we'd have won.

.ak

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Why are you here?

Don't be a dick. Stay on topic please.

.ak

former total wrote: »

I think today confirmed what most of us already knew. We are not as bad as was made out after the 6N but not as good as was made out after last week.

Likewise, South Africa were always going to improve as they went on.

Big performers for me today were Furlong, Rudfock

Ruddock was my motm before the 'collapse'....

Billysays no

MJohnston wrote: »

How do you do any of that when you're not in possession?

I leave it to you. I honestly know little. When you suggested possession I figured it was a religious thing

former total

I think today confirmed what most of us already knew. We are not as bad as was made out after the 6N but not as good as was made out after last week.

Likewise, South Africa were always going to improve as they went on.

Big performers for me today were Furlong, Ruddock, Henderson and Trimble. Payne was very good but continues to show me that 13 is his best position.

Jackson was OK but that's about it. We are still hopelessly reliant on Sexton.

Gilroy did well. His main objective was to remain solid and he did.

No one played badly really but too many tired bodies and too many missed tackles in the last 20. Joe has to shoulder some blame for that.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

We died a death in the second half. The Boks came out with a different approach and played to their strengths, stretching us. We looked vulnerable again in midfield without Payne, I have to say although I'd be loathe to take him away from 15.

Nobody stepped up and made a big, momentum changing play in midfield when we really needed it.

Coetzee emptied the bench, bringing in local players who were pumped up with a point to prove. We (slowly) brought in guys who barely registered at all whilst on the pitch, I'm afraid, and it told.

Fatigue cost us and we made some very sloppy errors not only in terms of tackling but just losing concentration. If we had come away with 3 points rather than a penalty against us for crossing, I think we'd have won.

Do you reckon altitude got to us in the end? As the game went on we just couldn't seem to chase kicks or make tackles stick, they seemed to kick on from there.

Billysays no

.ak wrote: »

Do you reckon altitude got to us in the end? As the game went on we just couldn't seem to chase kicks or make tackles stick, they seemed to kick on from there.

strangely i may have suggested that. i was concerned about team selection. then team selection was great. then team fading and suddenly bollox. and there you have it. it really, really, really drives me nuts. joe, you got the start right. honestly you can not be this one dimensional. surely you see we have options. when a team is falling apart in front of your eyes surely you must deliver change?

clsmooth

.ak wrote: »

Do you reckon altitude got to us in the end? As the game went on we just couldn't seem to chase kicks or make tackles stick, they seemed to kick on from there.

I reckon a mixture of fatigue from last week (and a long season) and the altitude undid us today. I think if we had Cronin and Dillane on the bench (along with who didn't start between Stander or Ruddock), it may have been a different story. Strauss, Ryan and Reidy didn't offer much impact. That said I understand why the other lads were on the bench, if you ask players to go on a 4 week+ tour at the end of a 52 week season, you should really give them a bit of gametime.

clsmooth

Lots of positives from today:

Jackson played well and kicked well from the tee
Henderson and Ruddock showed some great footwork on top of brute power
We were more than a match for the SA scrum
Furlong and Roux were excellent in their first starts
Trimble is back in great form

Rugby is hugely momentum based. In the second half we didn't have any big moments that gave it to us aside from Furlongs blockdown which led to our try. If we had a big hit or carry from the likes of Dillane or Cronin, things could have panned out differently, but I think we can be happy enough with what we learned today about the lads who played.

Billysays no

clsmooth wrote: »

Lots of positives from today:

Jackson played well and kicked well from the tee
Henderson and Ruddock showed some great footwork on top of brute power
We were more than a match for the SA scrum
Furlong and Roux were excellent in their first starts
Trimble is back in great form

Rugby is hugely momentum based. In the second half we didn't have any big moments that gave it to us aside from Furlongs blockdown which led to our try. If we had a big hit or carry from the likes of Dillane or Cronin, things could have panned out differently, but I think we can be happy enough with what we learned today about the lads who played.

what we learned is it does not need to be murray for 80 minutes, what we learnt is that all the team must play for 80 minutes. joe you are driving me mental

CMOTDibbler

Billysays no wrote: »

strangely i may have suggested that. i was concerned about team selection. then team selection was great. then team fading and suddenly bollox. and there you have it. it really, really, really drives me nuts. joe, you got the start right. honestly you can not be this one dimensional. surely you see we have options. when a team is falling apart in front of your eyes surely you must deliver change?

He has only eight subs on the bench. The entire team was knackered. Trimble and Murray were out on their feet, Jackson was gone, Gilroy was gone and the forwards had emptied the tank.

The boks knew, they were directing their attacks at the most knackered. Murray made a tackle, got up and went in to the line out a couple of places from the ruck, the next attack came straight at him and broke through as he didn't have the power in his legs to make the tackle stick.

We knew this would be the problem and it needed a big lead early to cover the second half slump. It was a good lead, but not big enough. Personally I didn't think we'd have a chance, but we were better than I expected.

washman3

Dog Botherer wrote: »

SA are finished. Look totally lost.

Were you serious..???
Game is 80 mins, not 40...;)

Billysays no

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

He has only eight subs on the bench. The entire team was knackered. Trimble and Murray were out on their feet, Jackson was gone, Gilroy was gone and the forwards had emptied the tank.

i promised i wouldn't give out but as you see what i saw how cannot you use your bench

MJohnston

http://www.the42.ie/ireland-south-africa-talking-points-2-2832512-Jun2016/?utm_source=twitter_self

Without labouring the point about the altitude, it’s worth noting that Coetzee’s first three changes (Combrinck, Whiteley and Julian Redelinghuys) are all Lions players who ply their Super Rugby trade at Ellis Park.

Crucial really, I think.

The Rape of Lucretia

Billysays no wrote: »

what we learned is it does not need to be murray for 80 minutes, what we learnt is that all the team must play for 80 minutes. joe you are driving me mental

Some of you may have learned this. Joe already knew it though.

But until an international level scrummie comes along that is capable of being brought into a game of this level when it is still live, there is nothing he can do about it. Bringing on just your next best scrumhalf in our case would just be counter productive, and a flogged Murray is better than the next best at the moment. When Boss or Redser were still options for him, he used to happily sub his 9s.

Give the guy a break at this stage. He cannot just invent a new scrum half.

The Rape of Lucretia

MJohnston wrote: »

http://www.the42.ie/ireland-south-africa-talking-points-2-2832512-Jun2016/?utm_source=twitter_self



Crucial really, I think.

Joe didn't even have a single Lions player on his bench. Amateur mistake from Schmidt.

Billysays no

as a rugby game it was one of the best I've seen. it really was exciting. so I am happy with this. I did think this 15 would be exciting and they were very much so. but then the other side. joe I will forever be your critic. how could you simply watch your team fall apart and not at least try to make a change? I am left speechless

pickarooney

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Joe didn't even have a single Lions player on his bench. Amateur mistake from Schmidt.

He had a couple of Leinster Lions.

Any Du Plessises back for next week? Or Habana if MHR spring a late comeback?

nehe milner skudder

Sean Kinsella wrote: »

Rob Kearney has lost a yard of his previously electric pace and there's no question that Payne is the better option; I wonder if Joe doesn't see it that way.....

I agree about Aki and I can't wait to see him in international green; when does he qualify exactly?

these posts are a bitter pill to swallow. id like to think aki could be lured back.

pickarooney

Any highlights up?

former total

pickarooney wrote: »

Any highlights up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8h5Nnq_xAA

CIARAN_BOYLE

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Some of you may have learned this. Joe already knew it though.

But until an international level scrummie comes along that is capable of being brought into a game of this level when it is still live, there is nothing he can do about it. Bringing on just your next best scrumhalf in our case would just be counter productive, and a flogged Murray is better than the next best at the moment. When Boss or Redser were still options for him, he used to happily sub his 9s.

Give the guy a break at this stage. He can not just invent a new scrum half.

If you cant give a guy a chance when leading 26-10 when can you give guys a chance. Personally I was calling for Marmion to get a run when the score was 26-10. I saw Murray as having slowed slighly already and I figured that the game was won. I wonder if Marmion being brought on at that time would have made a difference. At any rate it may have left Murray slightly fresher for next week. Although we would probbly have posters here discussing how Schmidt had destroyed Marmions confidence by putting him in a disintegrating team.

Dave_The_Sheep

There are no highlights.

(for the record, I'm reasonably happy with today's effort, if not result)

wp_rathead

It's 52-52 on aggregate after the first two games
All to play for

clsmooth

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If you cant give a guy a chance when leading 26-10 when can you give guys a chance. Personally I was calling for Marmion to get a run when the score was 26-10. I saw Murray as having slowed slighly already and I figured that the game was won. I wonder if Marmion being brought on at that time would have made a difference. At any rate it may have left Murray slightly fresher for next week. Although we would probbly have posters here discussing how Schmidt had destroyed Marmions confidence by putting him in a disintegrating team.

Or how we would have won if we had kept Murray on the pitch

Adbrowne

http://www.the42.ie/joe-schmidt-reaction-ireland-lose-to-south-africa-2832675-Jun2016/?utm_source=twitter_self

RoundBox11

Billysays no wrote: »

as a rugby game it was one of the best I've seen. it really was exciting. so I am happy with this. I did think this 15 would be exciting and they were very much so. but then the other side. joe I will forever be your critic. how could you simply watch your team fall apart and not at least try to make a change? I am left speechless

We get it, you're speechless and shocked and you hate Joe. Change the record

wp_rathead

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If you cant give a guy a chance when leading 26-10 when can you give guys a chance. Personally I was calling for Marmion to get a run when the score was 26-10. I saw Murray as having slowed slighly already and I figured that the game was won. I wonder if Marmion being brought on at that time would have made a difference. At any rate it may have left Murray slightly fresher for next week. Although we would probbly have posters here discussing how Schmidt had destroyed Marmions confidence by putting him in a disintegrating team.

Exactly, it was ideal time to test him. Why have Marmion even on the bench if seemingly doesn't trust him- what's the odds he will have Reddan on bench for next week..

nehe milner skudder

coetzee got selection all wrong in week one.


punisher and whitely should start next week.

Billysays no

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If you cant give a guy a chance when leading 26-10 when can you give guys a chance. Personally I was calling for Marmion to get a run when the score was 26-10. I saw Murray as having slowed slighly already and I figured that the game was won. I wonder if Marmion being brought on at that time would have made a difference. At any rate it may have left Murray slightly fresher for next week. Although we would probbly have posters here discussing how Schmidt had destroyed Marmions confidence by putting him in a disintegrating team.

God, I was there agreeing until your final point. This is nearly getting to an exciting team, it definitely is not a disintegrating team. Marmion does deserve better. I do agree on that

Billysays no

what bothers me about irish rugby is that you put players on a bench with little intention, or indeed ideas, of using them

The Rape of Lucretia

wp_rathead wrote: »

Exactly, it was ideal time to test him. Why have Marmion even on the bench if seemingly doesn't trust him- what's the odds he will have Reddan on bench for next week..

The aim wasnt to test him. It was to try to close out the game. Best done with Murray on the pitch,

In case Murray got injured. He doesnt trust him. But he is neck and neck with Reddan as the poor options for back up to Murray. Neither contending in anyway for Murray's place, and effectively are third rate scrum halves. Our single weakest position. In most other positions we have either seriously debateable contenders for the position, or we have decent second string ones, one or two of which we can tolerate in the team at anyone time.

Low. Probably still Marms, but Joe will be praying Murray can put in another 80 minute stint to bag the series.

pickarooney

Ryan, Kilcoyne, Madigan.. anyone else pretty much finished with Ireland?

I didn't see the game, just going off reactions and the competition in those positions.

The Rape of Lucretia

pickarooney wrote: »

Ryan, Kilcoyne, Madigan.. anyone else pretty much finished with Ireland?

Bobby K.

awec

If Henshaw is proper injured who gets called up?