Euro 2016 - Group E - Belgium vs Ireland, 2 pm, RTE & ITV

trashcan

Strumms wrote: »

Well you were the one who suggested we would come unstuck... why don't you tell me ? We were a better side... that's where I'm coming from.. and we should have beaten Spain we were the better side..

Cudda wudda shudda. If we were good enough we would have beaten Spain. The game was pretty even as I recall. We didn't beat Cameroon either in that tournament. In fact the only team we beat was Saudi Arabia. Green tinted hindsight specs perhaps ? Having said that we were definitely a better team then than we are now, and with Roy Keane in the team, who knows.

The_Honeybadger

NIMAN wrote: »

Some nostalgia getting in the way here, some of those names being bandied around from old Ireland teams weren't all that great.

Possibly, given, finnan, Carr, both Keanes and Duff were class though imo. that's half the team made up of genuine quality, and supplemented by some very capable squad players. It was streets ahead of what we have now.

Paully D

Mec27 wrote: »

How the **** will we ever know? They did beat Spain afteral in the next round.

South Korea's run in that tournament was the worst case of match fixing I've ever seen.

Irish_rat

Duff's performance against Spain was unreal, I can still feel the pain of that penalty shootout and running rings around Spain's defense in extra time. Ah well

I'm not sure I would eulogise about the 2002 team. Holland and Kinsella anchoring midfield did very well for us, and deserve nothing but credit for their service to Ireland...but still think it was workmanlike. Behind them were afair Breen and Staunton, the former not very good, the latter with his best years at full back behind him. The full backs Kelly and Harte were good alright, but Harte was very slow. The 3 stars were Given at one end and Duff and Keane at the other.

happyoutscan

Around 1997-98 a few of us were working in Germany and living outside Wiesbaden. Small little village on a train link about 8km from Wb. We enquired about the local club and we're invited to join in.

I lasted about 2 sessions as I was too good (ahem) but my overriding memory was the first session: about 20 or so players and at least 40 football's.

No warmup laps of an hour, no ball up in air 15 a side, straight into drills with 3 coaches.

This was a tiny country village with fatter players than I whom you couldn't get a ball off in McDaids.

Green Fella

NIMAN wrote: »

Yeah you'd think the highly paid and highly hyped management team might have seen that and tried to do something about it.

I personally blame O'Neill, our failings are very similar to his weaknesses in club management which have been outlined many times in this thread. Keane is just a sideshow at this stage. He talks the talk and then the team do completely the opposite. Hopefully this whole sorry episode will put paid to any talk of him as manager.

But I was never one for blaming the assistant manager. The buck stops with the main man, the manager. I remember certain Arsenal fans years ago blaming their poor run on Pat Rice, and harping on about big changes with Steve Bould lol. They couldnt bring themselves to question Wenger, but needed to blame someone. The manager calls the shots and ultimately they are responsible.

O'Neill is past his sell by date, football has moved on. He wont manage in the Premier League again. A younger man with vision, tactical nous, energy, positivity and not scared to attack is what we need. Theres no point naming names O'Neill is here for the foreseeable. Being honest I was disappointed when we hired O'Neill in the first place, it was Trap II from the start, and his recent stints at Villa and Sunderland are pretty much carbon copies of what we are seeing here. Except he isnt pissing away money on mediocre overhyped players

I'll say one thing for today.

Since 1981 I've thought of the Belgians as cheats. Now, today they may not have bribed the ref...but they were definitely helped by his failure to spot the near decapitation before their opener.

It hasn't made me warm to the Belgians, even if this time it wasn't completely down to their corruption.

Sand

Paully D wrote: »

South Korea's run in that tournament was the worst case of match fixing I've ever seen.

Some of the tackles they got away with were shameful - I recall a South Korean player straight up kicking an opponent in the head as the opponent was lying on the ground and nothing given.

Sand

Green Fella wrote: »

Being honest I was disappointed when we hired O'Neill in the first place, it was Trap II from the start, and his recent stints at Villa and Sunderland are pretty much carbon copies of what we are seeing here. Except he isnt pissing away money on mediocre overhyped players

100% agreed on that. The only improvement over Trap that O'Neill offered was that at least O'Neill would know the names of the players, would display some interest in scouting new ones and would avoid needless fights with any half decent players we did have.

Paying top money for a 1st team coach is putting the money in the wrong place imo, but there is something to be said for getting a coach who can get poor players playing above themselves while we wait for a decent bunch of players to come through. O'Neill did get this group of players to the Euros so that's a positive. Its a case of if its value for money though and if its a distraction from the real challenge of actually fixing the youth development so Ireland has some players in future.

Green Fella

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not sure I would eulogise about the 2002 team. Holland and Kinsella anchoring midfield did very well for us, and deserve nothing but credit for their service to Ireland...but still think it was workmanlike. Behind them were afair Breen and Staunton, the former not very good, the latter with his best years at full back behind him. The full backs Kelly and Harte were good alright, but Harte was very slow. The 3 stars were Given at one end and Duff and Keane at the other.

Harte could take some free kick , unreal left peg on him. He was good for Reading and really he should have been with Ireland alot longer than he was , totally different to class to Stephen Ward and he was decent up until retirement last year.

Yet he didnt kick a ball for Ireland since 2007, Trap didnt even know he was Irish. Really some of the management of the Irish set up in the past decade has been truely pathetic stuff

Francie Barrett

mickeyk wrote: »

Possibly, given, finnan, Carr, both Keanes and Duff were class though imo. that's half the team made up of genuine quality, and supplemented by some very capable squad players. It was streets ahead of what we have now.

Where is that quality now? Honestly, this is the poorest Irish team we've had in a generation. If you want to be depressed, then take a look at the under 21 squad. This likely will be Keane, Hoolahan, and O'Shea's last tournament - I don't see anyone even coming close to the ability that they once had. After those three hang their boots up we have a clutch of other 32/33 year olds (Walters, Whelan, Murphy) who will follow them into retirement. Our brightest prospects at youth level are Christie and Hendrick, players in the Championship who are probably close to their peak.

The coming World Cup qualification is looking grim.

Sand

Sand wrote: »

100% agreed on that. The only improvement over Trap that O'Neill offered was that at least O'Neill would know the names of the players, would display some interest in scouting new ones and would avoid needless fights with any half decent players we did have...

Fully agree. O'Neill is as limited tactically as Trap was...but at least he's not some cranky old fella picking pets from a villa half a continent away and dropping others out of spite or to make some point. I think at least O'Neill makes the effort, even if we are still gonna be completely outplayed at times.

Green Fella wrote: »

Harte could take some free kick , unreal left peg on him. He was good for Reading and really he should have been with Ireland alot longer than he was , totally different to class to Stephen Ward and he was decent up until retirement last year.

Yet he didnt kick a ball for Ireland since 2007, Trap didnt even know he was Irish. Really some of the management of the Irish set up in the past decade has been truely pathetic stuff

Another Trap mess. Perhaps we should just be glad he didn't stick Simon Cox in there.

Green Fella

Sand wrote: »

100% agreed on that. The only improvement over Trap that O'Neill offered was that at least O'Neill would know the names of the players, would display some interest in scouting new ones and would avoid needless fights with any half decent players we did have.

Paying top money for a 1st team coach is putting the money in the wrong place imo, but there is something to be said for getting a coach who can get poor players playing above themselves while we wait for a decent bunch of players to come through. O'Neill did get this group of players to the Euros so that's a positive. Its a case of if its value for money though and if its a distraction from the real challenge of actually fixing the youth development so Ireland has some players in future.

I found it quite hilarious how Dunphy waged a national campaign to get rid of Trap, and to get O'Neill in his place. He tried to paint O'Neill as totally different but like you said there were very few differences except O'Neill knew the players and wouldnt be too divisive.

I feel like Keane was thrown in as a sidekick to get media and the fans interested and create a buzz. O'Neill has Steve Guppy and a few of his other guys in there aswell.

sonic85

Sand wrote: »

Maybe the players lacked the composure or the ability to retain possession against top class opposition? I really doubt O'Neill and Keane weren't telling the players to calm down and hold the ball (O'Shea referred to instructions to hold the ball more at half time directly after the game, having Hoolahan on indicated a desire to play *some* football) but the players just arent good enough to do that, panicked and lumped it long regardless of instructions?

I don't believe that we don't have the ability to complete 5-10 yard passes. It can't be beyond our players even if they were all playing in the Championship. There might be something to the composure thing but could that not be fixed. My problem with today was we didn't even try to keep the ball. It wasn't that we tried and failed and went out on our shields - we just didn't bother. We looked a bit better when Belgium scored but it was too little too late. This tournament so far isn't much better than 2012

Mec27

sonic85 wrote: »

I don't believe that we don't have the ability to complete 5-10 yard passes. It can't be beyond our players even if they were all playing in the Championship. There might be something to the composure thing but could that not be fixed. My problem with today was we didn't even try to keep the ball. It wasn't that we tried and failed and went out on our shields - we just didn't bother. We looked a bit better when Belgium scored but it was too little too late. This tournament so far isn't much better than 2012

In a thread today about what grinds your gears I said I hate when pundits act like football is this complicated thing but this could be an aspect where you really would have had to play at an insanely highly level to comprehend. All those Irish players in training would be amazing with the ball, they could put the ball on a sixpence on command, but in the heat of battle what seperates the good from the great is how quickly they can do it. There was a great article about this by Gabriel Marcotti years and years back. I would never be able to find it but it was really interesting.

Francie Barrett

sonic85 wrote: »

This tournament so far isn't much better than 2012

I really don't understand how people can say that. We were utterly destroyed in every single game we played in 2012. This time we were the better team in the first game, and we were actually decent enough in patches in the second, ultimately undone by some poor individual play.

sonic85

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Where is that quality now? Honestly, this is the poorest Irish team we've had in a generation. If you want to be depressed, then take a look at the under 21 squad. This likely will be Keane, Hoolahan, and O'Shea's last tournament - I don't see anyone even coming close to the ability that they once had. After those three hang their boots up we have a clutch of other 32/33 year olds (Walters, Whelan, Murphy) who will follow them into retirement. Our brightest prospects at youth level are Christie and Hendrick, players in the Championship who are probably close to their peak.

The coming World Cup qualification is looking grim.

Jack Byrne maybe? If he continues to develop

Green Fella

Green Fella wrote: »

I found it quite hilarious how Dunphy waged a national campaign to get rid of Trap, and to get O'Neill in his place. He tried to paint O'Neill as totally different but like you said there were very few differences except O'Neill knew the players and wouldnt be too divisive.

I feel like Keane was thrown in as a sidekick to get media and the fans interested and create a buzz. O'Neill has Steve Guppy and a few of his other guys in there aswell.

Again, agree.

Trap was just a rambling mess who made no effort at all to find out about players he could have played, like Harte when he was in form, and ended careers like S Reid and A Reid cruelly when they were both worth at least squad places. O'Neill is far more coherent as a manager, doesn't pick fights with players from some villa, will actually go and see them play, and deserved great credit for picking up a shambles and getting us to a major tournament in his first effort. But he's still limited. I'm not sure I'd stick the knife in over this tournament, still think it's so much better than 2012, at least we're not watching Cox v Iniesta type stuff again.

Sand

sonic85 wrote: »

I don't believe that we don't have the ability to complete 5-10 yard passes. It can't be beyond our players even if they were all playing in the Championship. There might be something to the composure thing but could that not be fixed. My problem with today was we didn't even try to keep the ball. It wasn't that we tried and failed and went out on our shields - we just didn't bother. We looked a bit better when Belgium scored but it was too little too late. This tournament so far isn't much better than 2012

It depends on the opposition. A 5-10 yard pass seems simple, but you need a team mate to show for it and you need the opposition to sit off and let you pick your passes. Good opposition usually does not sit back and let you pass through them. At the highest level you are playing against the very best footballers on the planet, who all work hard, are organised and are motivated. Effort and heart is no longer a decisive edge, its the bare minimum to compete. Pulling off a 5-10 yard pass under that opposition becomes much harder.

I was as frustrated as anyone at the poor touch, composure and passing of the Irish players, but if you put up poor players against good players you will see the difference. And 'poor' is only a relative term, they are guys good enough to make a living playing football. Any of those Irish players would look like Messi compared to amateur players.

sonic85

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I really don't understand how people can say that. We were utterly destroyed in every single game we played in 2012. This time we were the better team in the first game, and we were actually decent enough in patches in the second, ultimately undone by some poor individual play.

In 2012 we were destroyed because we played 3 really good teams. So far we've played a poor Swedish team that we did ok against but still couldn't put away and got mauled by Belgium while putting in 45 of the most dour minutes of football I've seen in a while. Where's the improvement?

Sand

Deleted User wrote: »

at least we're not watching Cox v Iniesta type stuff again.

Clearly the wrong match-up - Paul Green was the answer.

Sand

sonic85 wrote: »

In 2012 we were destroyed because we played 3 really good teams. So far we've played a poor Swedish team that we did ok against but still couldn't put away and got mauled by Belgium while putting in 45 of the most dour minutes of football I've seen in a while. Where's the improvement?

1 point on the board, and a performance where we feel hard done-by not to get 3?

Euro 2012 we had 0 points and a goal difference of -8 after 3 games. Whatever happens against Italy, there is an improvement.

RoryMac

As someone said earlier you can't polish a turd, we have a very limited group of players and lack any type of leadership in the squad. We have midfield players that turn their back on their teammates when they have the ball rather than giving them options.

We're out of our depth against any of the decent teams in the competition & there's really very little the management can do to bridge that gap.

764dak

Strumms wrote: »

Mec27 wrote: »

Most of those players wouldn't get there now if football climate is what it is today.

Rubbish.. what do you base that on ? If you are good enough you will succeed and find your level.. football is about success first and foremost and the top clubs want top players... simple...

Non-English top division players at the time were mainly from Ireland, Home Nations, Scandinavia and the Commonwealth. Players from these countries aren't in demand now.

sonic85

Sand wrote: »

1 point on the board, and a performance where we feel hard done-by not to get 3?

Euro 2012 we had 0 points and a goal difference of -8 after 3 games. Whatever happens against Italy, there is an improvement.

Against a poor Swedish side. An improvement would be the three points against Sweden and two decent performances even if they result in losses. That's my opinion anyway.

vidor

RoryMac wrote: »

As someone said earlier you can't polish a turd, we have a very limited group of players and lack any type of leadership in the squad. We have midfield players that turn their back on their teammates when they have the ball rather than giving them options.

We're out of our depth against any of the decent teams in the competition & there's really very little the management can do to bridge that gap.

Don't doubt that we're out of our depth but management can opt to play someone else other than Clarke. Could have given someone like Alan Judge some more games and see if he could have brought something to the mix, because McClean, McGeady and co haven't done enough to earn a place in the team/squad. McClean is such a limited player and that was clear as day in the third goal. The right-back could clearly tell what he was trying to do and won it off him incredibly easily. They countered, they scored. Maybe bring someone like McGoldrick along. It's a total waste of time bringing Keane on so you might as well try a different approach.

You could see how tactically inept O'Neill was vs Sweden - did nothing to protect Coleman on that right side for such a long spell in the second half and then they eventually made the breakthrough. I'd imagine him being a decent motivator but it looks like that's his only trick.

The Talking Bread

The Talking Bread wrote: »

that is entirely different to what I want to talk about!!! I want to talk about soccer, not corporate politics! I work for a public sector body and interact with these board members everyday and see that nothing justifies what they earn nor their future pensions. Most of them are glorified admin staff with a nice title! And even the admin staff work harder.
So I know exactly why Delaney gets paid and I cant justify it either and I urge change in the FAI but many people have actually applauded Delaney to be fair to him, people with a better knowledge than me of the goings on in Merrion Square.

But as I said, the next successor to Delaney will push for the same amount by way of precedent. Its corporate politics and happens in every company, really.

Id prefer to discuss the practical barriers facing the development of a new system of soccer in Ireland

Fwiw I absolutely agree with you. Personally, I think if the game was geared more toward enjoyment for the kids and promote thinking, ownership and decision making from a young age and intensified ever so slightly yr on year up to adult it would be better. Problem with sport is it is just another outlet for control freak coaches to grip onto

Mec27

In fairness tonight, Austria did absolutely nothing against Portugal, they got some luck and held on but it was pretty much exactly like our performance. Perhaps teams like Belgium and Croatia should be seen for what they are, one in Belgiums case a freak occurence of a once in a lifetime conveyor belt of players, the other a country who just knows how to produce top tier players despite their small size, a bit like a New Zealand of football.

Mec27

764dak wrote: »

Non-English top division players at the time were mainly from Ireland, Home Nations, Scandinavia and the Commonwealth. Players from these countries aren't in demand now.

The EPL moved on without us, it nearly moved on without English players but of course that could never happen in their own league, but they owe nothing to us. The days of Ireland having lots of starters in the English Premier League is over. Going to have to look to the European mainland for opportunities me thinks, probably a slow stream of players into Belgium and Netherlands. I highly doubt we will ever see an Irish contingent in Spain, Italy or Germany.

RoryMac

vidor wrote: »

Don't doubt that we're out of our depth but management can opt to play someone else other than Clarke. Could have given someone like Alan Judge some more games and see if he could have brought something to the mix, because McClean, McGeady and co haven't done enough to earn a place in the team/squad. McClean is such a limited player and that was clear as day in the third goal. The right-back could clearly tell what he was trying to do and won it off him incredibly easily. They countered, they scored. Maybe bring someone like McGoldrick along. It's a total waste of time bringing Keane on so you might as well try a different approach.

You could see how tactically inept O'Neill was vs Sweden - did nothing to protect Coleman on that right side for such a long spell in the second half and then they eventually made the breakthrough. I'd imagine him being a decent motivator but it looks like that's his only trick.

Its not like we have left any superstars out of the squad, any changes available to us would have been like for like or worse. We simply don't have the talent pool to choose from.

Players like Judge or McGoldrick wouldn't have made any difference.

I do agree on the point about being slow to solve the issue on the right side against Sweden, I'm not sure why it took so long to make a change. MON has always tended to leave any substitutions as late as possible in games

Mec27

Mec27 wrote: »

In fairness tonight, Austria did absolutely nothing against Portugal, they got some luck and held on but it was pretty much exactly like our performance. Perhaps teams like Belgium and Croatia should be seen for what they are, one in Belgiums case a freak occurence of a once in a lifetime conveyor belt of players, the other a country who just knows how to produce top tier players despite their small size, a bit like a New Zealand of football.

Portugal minus Ronaldo are rubbish. If Ronaldo was around the time of Figo and Rui Costa in their prime then.god knows what he may have achieved.

Belgium put a plan into action and while not shooting the lights out just yet they are on the right track. Its no coincidence that Holland transitioned from the amateur era to twice world cup finalists due to the thinking and philosophy they applied to their coaching as well as getting things structurally right. You could argue 'right time-right place' but i think the more you practice the.luckier you get tbh

Sand

sonic85 wrote: »

Against a poor Swedish side. An improvement would be the three points against Sweden and two decent performances even if they result in losses. That's my opinion anyway.

Still an improvement over the horror show that was 2012 where we had 0 points and 0 performances.

Ulysses Gaze

Mec27 wrote: »

The EPL moved on without us, it nearly moved on without English players but of course that could never happen in their own league, but they owe nothing to us. The days of Ireland having lots of starters in the English Premier League is over. Going to have to look to the European mainland for opportunities me thinks, probably a slow stream of players into Belgium and Netherlands. I highly doubt we will ever see an Irish contingent in Spain, Italy or Germany.

Interesting article here:

http://www.thecoachdiary.com/irish-kids-disappoint-the-worlds-best-academy-coaches/

This year 3 FCBarcelona coaches, 1 Sporting Club de Portugal Coach, 1 Sporting Braga Coach and Horst Wein to name a few all had the opportunity to watch Irish kids of various ages and abilities and they all expressed the same concerns, Irish kids are not intelligent (Game intelligence) and technically very poor.. “They weren’t able to take instructions in and could not understand the basis of a very simple phase of play”

Benimar

vidor wrote: »

Don't doubt that we're out of our depth but management can opt to play someone else other than Clarke. Could have given someone like Alan Judge some more games and see if he could have brought something to the mix, because McClean, McGeady and co haven't done enough to earn a place in the team/squad. McClean is such a limited player and that was clear as day in the third goal. The right-back could clearly tell what he was trying to do and won it off him incredibly easily. They countered, they scored. Maybe bring someone like McGoldrick along. It's a total waste of time bringing Keane on so you might as well try a different approach.

You could see how tactically inept O'Neill was vs Sweden - did nothing to protect Coleman on that right side for such a long spell in the second half and then they eventually made the breakthrough. I'd imagine him being a decent motivator but it looks like that's his only trick.

You do know Judge broke his leg in two places in April?

O'Neills one mistake in picking the squad as far as I'm concerned was not risking Arter. Would have been a great option to start instead of McCarthy on Wednesday.

Sand

Deleted User wrote: »

Belgium put a plan into action and while not shooting the lights out just yet they are on the right track. Its no coincidence that Holland transitioned from the amateur era to twice world cup finalists due to the thinking and philosophy they applied to their coaching as well as getting things structurally right. You could argue 'right time-right place' but i think the more you practice the.luckier you get tbh

They jury is out on if Belgium may be the beneficiaries of cosmic luck, but it is fair enough that they have earned their luck by investing in producing good players. Ireland are barely at the stage of establishing there is a problem.

Mec27

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Interesting article here:

http://www.thecoachdiary.com/irish-kids-disappoint-the-worlds-best-academy-coaches/

Interesting.

sonic85

Sand wrote: »

Still an improvement over the horror show that was 2012 where we had 0 points and 0 performances.

Well agree to disagree on that one I think!

I posted in the team thread but I'll stick it here too. Could the formation be changed for the game against the Italians? 3-5-2 or some variation of it? Flood the middle and give Long more support. It's do or die time now anyway and I'd rather we go balls out for the win rather than be cagey about it

LorMal

Sand wrote: »

1 point on the board, and a performance where we feel hard done-by not to get 3?

Euro 2012 we had 0 points and a goal difference of -8 after 3 games. Whatever happens against Italy, there is an improvement.

The difference the time is that we got one point from 3 matches ( assuming that Italy thump us - which is very likely).
No change - we are rubbish. Nobody's fault - we don't have the players because the PL is full of internationals from around the world.

Arthur Daley

After wednesday where we will do well to get a point, fair enough Italy have the group won. But then we actually have a winnable group for the world cup. A well motivated and structured Ireland team could with strong performances come out on top in thd mix of wales, austria and serbia. It's a good opportunity but we need a bit more of premiership standard like artur to come through to beef the up thd squad and duffy to prove a himself reliable centre back.

Berserker

Mec27 wrote: »

In fairness tonight, Austria did absolutely nothing against Portugal, they got some luck and held on but it was pretty much exactly like our performance.

I disagree. They held their shape throughout the game and they were a well organised defensive unit. They fought hard for and earned their point from that game.

vidor

Benimar wrote: »

You do know Judge broke his leg in two places in April?

Yup, I was just talking about giving him more caps instead of just the one a few months back (and one in which he played him out of position).

Mec27

Arthur Daley wrote: »

After wednesday where we will do well to get a point, fair enough Italy have the group won. But then we actually have a winnable group for the world cup. A well motivated and structured Ireland team could with strong performances come out on top in thd mix of wales, austria and serbia. It's a good opportunity but we need a bit more of premiership standard like artur to come through to beef the up thd squad and duffy to prove a himself reliable centre back.

I reckon we go for broke in this campaign, and by broke I mean continue down the usual Ireland approach, MON is contracted so do the whole play **** football but grind out results to get a playoff and hopefully get a lucky draw and squeeze through, but after that, tear it up, take a few hammerings if we need to, undergo a period of transition where we look to become a more proactive football nation that can take games to the opposition. Belgium had to endure it before they qualified for their first tournament in 2014.

I don't know if getting Irish players to the european mainland will change much for irish football but try to build links with clubs in LOI with other clubs in spain/germany/france so that we can benefit from a varied and less one dimensional squad of players.

LorMal

Mec27 wrote: »

Interesting.

Been said 1000 times. Unfortunately no-one is listening - esp with that muppet in charge of the FAI.

Sand

Mec27 wrote: »

I reckon we go for broke in this campaign, and by broke I mean continue down the usual Ireland approach, MON is contracted so do the whole play **** football but grind out results to get a playoff and hopefully get a lucky draw and squeeze through, but after that, tear it up, take a few hammerings if we need to, undergo a period of transition where we look to become a more proactive football nation that can take games to the opposition. Belgium had to endure it before they qualified for their first tournament in 2014.

The thing is Belgium put the work in long before 2014. They recognised there was a problem and began addressing it in 1998. That means even if Ireland started right now, it would take until the late 2020s or even the early 2030s to bear fruit.

Thats an argument to start yesterday, but it also means we need to stop thinking in terms of short term success. O'Neill is a huge success in the short term by even qualifying, but there is nothing more coming through. The reality is a few years from now the like of Whelan will be the 'big stars' of the Irish team.

The other reality is that bigger sides like England have been less complacent than Ireland - they have reformed at youth level. They have 10 times the people to draw from, and far better coaching to develop them. The remarkable thing about Rashford (for example) is that up to 6 months ago no one knew about him. His composure, technical ability and performance was not unusual. He was just another decent English youth prospect at a PL club. England is producing players like him, Alli, Shaw, Eriksen, etc, etc. There is an arms race, and Ireland is far, far, far behind nations who are larger and better coached.

Francie Barrett

Alan Judge, David McGoldrick - yes, these are the lads that would have pulled it out of the fire for us.

teddyhead

I thought Keanes comments this week , where he praised the 'warrior' spirit and expressed his love of the physical side of the game ,were very depressing. Seems we have not really evolved from the quaint , up and at them , mentality. No wonder the gobby lout has won nowt as a manager.

Mec27

Sand wrote: »

The thing is Belgium put the work in long before 2014. They recognised there was a problem and began addressing it in 1998. That means even if Ireland started right now, it would take until the late 2020s or even the early 2030s to bear fruit.

Thats an argument to start yesterday, but it also means we need to stop thinking in terms of short term success. O'Neill is a huge success in the short term by even qualifying, but there is nothing more coming through. The reality is a few years from now the like of Whelan will be the 'big stars' of the Irish team.

It is going to be so hard for us really isn't it. Football is huge in this country but it is not fundamental, the will just isn't there to turn us into a Croatia of the north so we will probably just continue plodding along, qualifying for tournaments once in a bluemoon. Scotland probably has the better chance of achieving that since football plays more part in their everyday society than it does here. Although while we have qualified for 3 tournaments since 2000, they have qualified for none.

The Talking Bread

Mec27 wrote: »

I reckon we go for broke in this campaign, and by broke I mean continue down the usual Ireland approach, MON is contracted so do the whole play **** football but grind out results to get a playoff and hopefully get a lucky draw and squeeze through, but after that, tear it up, take a few hammerings if we need to, undergo a period of transition where we look to become a more proactive football nation that can take games to the opposition. Belgium had to endure it before they qualified for their first tournament in 2014.

I don't know if getting Irish players to the european mainland will change much for irish football but try to build links with clubs in LOI with other clubs in spain/germany/france so that we can benefit from a varied and less one dimensional squad of players.

A little while ago on this thread you said the team is "boring and dead to me now"and you prefer seeing how the USA team progress. So why all the interest a few hours later in our future or was that just a moment of anguish driven hyperbole!

vidor

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Alan Judge, David McGoldrick - yes, these are the lads that would have pulled it out of the fire for us.

No need to get smart about it. Not saying the result would have been any different but a fresh approach might have been a little bit more interesting. Keane has served us well down through the years but what has he got to offer now? He looks closer to a 40 year old man running around when he comes on these days, what's the point?