League of Ireland in Europe 2016

justshane

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Dundalk (0 international caps) 1 v Maccabi (473 international caps) 0

Dean Sheils play for Northen Ireland? Still an amazing stat.

Ulysses Gaze

Deleted User wrote: »

As a Cork City fan I hope Horgan gets a call up. Another distraction in the league and cup run in...

In general, while I am concerned about the huge injection of funds into Dundalk and the possibility of the game here turning into a competition to see who finishes second for trophies...it's hard not to enjoy seeing an Irish side do well in Europe.

People said the same about Rovers a few years back as well.

It didn't work out that way.

pablomakaveli

Southampton could only manage a 0-0 draw against the Israeli team thats second in the league. Dundalk have beaten the team thats top of the table. Twice now Dundalk have performed better than English sides.:D

Randomfriend

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

I don't know where he's getting his figures from. The UEFA site says a €2.4M base fee for the entirety of the group and €120k/360k for drawing/winning. It says nothing about per match prize money and €1.3M sounds crazily large compared to the draw/win bonus. I don't see why losing a group match would be worth 80% of winning one, it'd make no sense. His "correction" to €3M is way off.

Still, €360k for a night's work ain't too bad. Dundalk have already made their money, though. Drawing/winning matches now is a fraction of what they made through the CL qualifiers. Each win/draw probably gets them enough money to tie the likes of Horgan down to an extra year, mind.

CL 2nd round; €300k
CL 3rd Round; €400k
CL play off; €3mill
For not reaching CL groups: €500k
EL group stage: €2.4mill
Group draw: €120k
Group win: €360k

So, just over 7 million so far.

Randomfriend

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

People said the same about Rovers a few years back as well.

It didn't work out that way.

Rovers only made somewhere in the region of 1-1.5million thou.

edgecutter

Randomfriend wrote: »

Rovers only made somewhere in the region of 1-1.5million thou.

Still huge sums compared to what the rest of the league had.

It just goes to show if you get your house in order and have a go in Europe your will reap what you sow.

MD1990

Was at this game again. I must be a good charm missed Legia but was at Bate.
Great performance. Shiels really stepped up in place of O'Donnell.

Paz-CCFC

Randomfriend wrote: »

CL 2nd round; €300k
CL 3rd Round; €400k
CL play off; €3mill
For not reaching CL groups: €500k
EL group stage: €2.4mill
Group draw: €120k
Group win: €360k

So, just over 7 million so far.

I think the CL 3rd round money is only if you get knocked out that stage. If you go through to the play-off, it's included in that round's money. There was a discussion further back in the thread to that effect.

edgecutter wrote: »

Still huge sums compared to what the rest of the league had.

It just goes to show if you get your house in order and have a go in Europe your will reap what you sow.

Yeah, but there are a lot of costs associated with playing in Europe. For example, Dundalk had to get an advance from UEFA because they weren't getting enough in from elsewhere. I think they were technically cash-flow insolvent from the expenses from hosting matches, travel etc. So, it shows that it's expensive to play in Europe. That eats into €1.9M a lot more than €7M. You just can't compare like-for-like what Rovers got to Dundalk.

Randomfriend

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

I think the CL 3rd round money is only if you get knocked out that stage. If you go through to the play-off, it's included in that round's money. There was a discussion further back in the thread to that effect.



Yeah, but there are a lot of costs associated with playing in Europe. For example, Dundalk had to get an advance from UEFA because they weren't getting enough in from elsewhere. I think they were technically cash-flow insolvent from the expenses from hosting matches, travel etc. So, it shows that it's expensive to play in Europe. That eats into €1.9M a lot more than €7M. You just can't compare like-for-like what Rovers got to Dundalk.

I think someone involved with dundalk, has said that they expect costs to be in the region of 3 million for them. I reckon that's being overstated publicly however. They have the lease to haggle over, so don't want to put out a front that they're swimming in cash.

Alfa Quadrifoglio

Just back from Tallaght Stadium, aka Oriel Nua. Superb performance by Dundalk who could have been out of sight by half time if they had taken their chances.
Maccabi Tel Avia are a very good side with Predrag Rajkovic the Serbian International Goalkeeper, Tal Ban Haim who played in the Premiership over 150 times with Bolton, Chelsea and Man City and of course Yossi Benayoun who came on a sub!!!
However the best players on the pitch were Dundalks Chris Shields and Daryl Horgan.....how is he not in the Irish team never mind the squad.
Great game of football and brilliant result for Dundalk, Kilduffs goal worth an additional €250k, they have now given themselves a real chance of qualifying from the Group.

DJIMI TRARORE

Brill result, hopefully the fai wake up and try to get the game of soccer up to a level that is acceptable at national level. You have to strike while the iron is hot. There wont be a cow milked in dundalk tonight

Omackeral

DJIMI TRARORE wrote: »

Brill result, hopefully the fai wake up and try to get the game of soccer up to a level that is acceptable at national level. You have to strike while the iron is hot. There wont be a cow milked drop of diesel laundered in dundalk tonight

More like it.

****ing brilliant night. By far the better team and deserved winners.
Wish I didn't have work tomorrow, there'll be a few kegs of Harp got through tonight.

tayto lover

Just home.
What a result and what an atmosphere.
I am hoarse tonight.
C'mon the Town. Brilliant brilliant brilliant.

wadacrack

Dundalk i with a real chance of qualifying. The AZ home game will be huge. Shields was immense tonight in midield. Gannon dealt with their left winger who is a quality player, very tricky.

The Talking Bread

surely surely surely we are going to see this jersey changing soon

Gavin "shels"

Great result by Dundalk and a great achievement.

marno21

Nothing historic or extraordinary about this win.

Just a team who beat a side better than them, as expected by some, it's very disappointing that LoI sides have such a small league mentality.

Fair play to Dundalk for deservedly picking up the 3 points and here's to the next 3.

Nothing stopping the League of Ireland being a high achieving league. Tonight proves that.

joeysoap

The Talking Bread wrote: »

surely surely surely we are going to see this jersey changing soon

Changed already , that's last year's Jersey

On the money front, expenses are huge Dundalk set very reasonable admission prices and I doubt make much after match and stadium expenses. They also went 70 days without a home match so not much actual income during this period. Afaik Ticketmaster still haven't paid over the Aviva money so well believe they asked UEFA for an advance. Afaik Match prizemoney is €360,000 and if it's a draw both teams get €120,000 and the remaining €120,000 is divied up among the match winners (I don't know if by group or overall)

UnitedIrishman

marno21 wrote: »

Nothing stopping the League of Ireland being a high achieving league. Tonight proves that.

There's loads of barriers stopping it being a high achieving league, tonight proves what is possible despite those barriers IMO.

Fantastic achievement by Dundalk and great to see them play without fear. They don't have the mentality of changing their entire game because sides are supposedly bigger than them, they keep the ball just as well as they do in LoI.

I wonder will Delaney make any comment? It seems the problem child is growing up despite gross neglect...

Not that anyone needs to hear from him. But he must be itching to take some credit. And he must know that the head of the country's football organisation not commenting on another landmark night does looks strange.

Zebra3

Dundalk players were outstanding last night.

White Horse

marno21 wrote: »

Nothing historic or extraordinary about this win.

Just a team who beat a side better than them, as expected by some, it's very disappointing that LoI sides have such a small league mentality.

Fair play to Dundalk for deservedly picking up the 3 points and here's to the next 3.

Nothing stopping the League of Ireland being a high achieving league. Tonight proves that.

1. It is historic. No Irish team has ever done this, or come close to doing it.
2. Maccabi are not a "side better than them".
3. There are dozens of factors that prevent the league being a high achieving league.
4. We are a small league.

Hats off to Dundalk. They just keep pulling out these big results.

Credit to the players and management of the club.

noodler

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

I don't know where he's getting his figures from. The UEFA site says a €2.4M base fee for the entirety of the group and €120k/360k for drawing/winning. It says nothing about per match prize money and €1.3M sounds crazily large compared to the draw/win bonus. I don't see why losing a group match would be worth 80% of winning one, it'd make no sense. His "correction" to €3M is way off.

Still, €360k for a night's work ain't too bad. Dundalk have already made their money, though. Drawing/winning matches now is a fraction of what they made through the CL qualifiers. Each win/draw probably gets them enough money to tie the likes of Horgan down to an extra year, mind.

The UEFA prize money page lists a number of other 'pots' other than just prize fees (TV money to be distributed, Soldiarity payments - it seems very complex).

Maybe the was (trying to) factor in all those.

Omackeral

Group D this morning.


1 Zenit Saint Petersburg 6 Points
2 Dundalk 4 Points
3 AZ Alkmaar 1 Point
4 Maccabi Tel Aviv 0 Points

NIMAN

Unbelievable result last night and fully deserved, they aren't fluking these results.

And against a team of more or less full internationals.

Maybe now some of the "I wouldn't go and watch that LoI sh1t" might sit up and take notice, but I doubt it. Instead they would rather watch a team worth several hundred million struggle past the mighty Zorya 1-0.

artanevilla

Dundalk were every bit worth their win, a great result alright.

But if a LOI team was drawn against Tel-Aviv in qualifiers you'd be hopeful of getting a result, these are the types of teams LOI can beat on their day.

White Horse

artanevilla wrote: »

But if a LOI team was drawn against Tel-Aviv in qualifiers you'd be hopeful of getting a result, these are the types of teams LOI can beat on their day.

Do you watch any LOI?

citytillidie

Hopefully that has tired Dundalk out for the semi final on Sunday but well done to them

AgileMyth

Irish_rat wrote: »

You obviously didn't watch the game tonight or last week then.

Yes, I did. Horgan was probably the best player on the pitch. Any of the other options we have would also have been the best player on the pitch. Even Mcgeady. In fact especially Mcgeady, tricky wingers look good playing poor opposition..

As for those calling for him to start for Ireland, who would you drop? I guess Robbie Brady only plays in the championship..

The Talking Bread

White Horse wrote: »

Do you watch any LOI?

even more to the point, does he watch any Israeli football!!

I am not sure, even "on their day", any other LOI team would take a point of MTAV, never mind beat them. You could argue Cork, but Dundalk's success is now prefaced a lot on experience growing and the technical elements in facing European teams. There is no fear, no inferiority complex, no we have got this far, lets go and enjoy the game and try play good football.
They realise they can't be naive to the fact they need to take each team and their structure on its merits, whereas the style of football in LOI is "generally" the fast paced style from club to club.

Once they have that element they can go about playing their own football also and reformat their defensive structure when they lose the ball.
It is no wonder that as their European games have gone on, they are incrementally conceding less goals, and making less minor, never mind bad mistakes off the ball, even though they are facing tougher teams as they go along.
If they were to face AZ or MCTA early on, say second qualifying round, they would have that lack of experience and mindset how to swith structure from attack to defence etc and probably would have been beaten well (not because they are a worse set of players, but because they would possibly take each game "as it comes" and "play as they are accustomed" rather than "on its merits".

There was a different approach to the last three games, in terms of tactics and that is testament to a very astute manager who is clearly doing his research on teams more and more.

So, if Cork or Derry were thrown into these matches now, even though they are well able to contest and beat Dundalk on their day, I would find it hard to believe they could take results off the likes of AZ or MCTA

MD1990

I'm sure football fans across Europe seen the Dundalk team has 11 Irish starters & nearly a full Irish Squad.
They probably wonder how many are in the Ireland squad or have been capped only to then realize not one member has received an Irish cap. Incredible.

White Horse

AgileMyth wrote: »

I guess Robbie Brady only plays in the championship..

The fact he is playing at a lower level than Daryl Horgan should go against Brady. He is a good player and would to well at Dundalk.

Pighead

Omackeral wrote: »

Group D this morning.


1 Zenit Saint Petersburg 6 Points
2 Dundalk 4 Points
3 AZ Alkmaar 1 Point
4 Maccabi Tel Aviv 0 Points

What a beautiful looking table. This team continue to rewrite the history books. The last three years have created enough memories to last a lifetime. This season alone would need a triple dvd release to capture the season's highlights. Stephen Kenny has long since cemented his hero status in Dundalk but he still continues to amaze by pushing this team even harder and demanding more.

It's fantastic to see how the nation have taken this team to their hearts and embraced the wonderful style of play they bring to the table. Dundalk truly are the nations sweethearts. On behalf of the good people of Dundalk may I say that you're all very welcome.

The Talking Bread

White Horse wrote: »

The fact he is playing at a lower level than Daryl Horgan should go against Brady. He is a good player and would to well at Dundalk.

Championship is NOT a lower level than LOI. Or maybe you are just taking the P and I look like a right g()bsh1te now!!!

White Horse

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Championship is NOT a lower level than LOI. Or maybe you are just taking the P and I look like a right g()bsh1te now!!!

Last night's game was in the Europa League, not the LOI.

MD1990

Dundalk technically are superior to at least the bottom half of the championship though. The Championship is a difficult league because of the amount of games not it's quality.

joeysoap

IMO as someone who was at the match last night, Shields was the best player on the field, all heroes to be sure but Boyle, Massey, Gannon and Shields were magnificent. Maccabi didn't get a sniff at goal and they scored 3 against Zenit.

Interesting that the AZ manager said Dundalk didn't play 'British' football and deserved a draw

But reading the reports on the Maccabi website they blame themselves for not winning (nothing to do with Dundalk ) and we play a British style of football.

“It was not a simple game and a style that was different from what we have encountered in the past. The British way of playing is high tempo and physical and we unfortunately had a tough time with that today............"

Pighead

AgileMyth wrote: »

Yes, I did. Horgan was probably the best player on the pitch. Any of the other options we have would also have been the best player on the pitch. Even Mcgeady. In fact especially Mcgeady, tricky wingers look good playing poor opposition..

As for those calling for him to start for Ireland, who would you drop? I guess Robbie Brady only plays in the championship..

Go back to bed Agile. You've come out with a few truly bizarre opinions over the years but to steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that Daryl Horgan's form doesn't deserve a call up to the Irish squad is just ridiculous.

The old argument for a loi player not deserving a call up was 'but he's only doing it against players in a crappy league. He'd be eaten alive over in England'.

Horgan's performances in both the league and in Europe this year have proved what many suspected in that he is the real deal. He is man of the match in practically every game he plays. If he continues this form there is no doubt that he will be in one of O'Neills squads over the next year.

Pighead

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Championship is NOT a lower level than LOI. Or maybe you are just taking the P and I look like a right g()bsh1te now!!!

You are making the mistake of not recognising the fact that Dundalk are currently a level above your standard loi team. What is loi level in your opinion? Are you using Dundalk as your barometer or are you taking all the teams and picking the average?

The Talking Bread

Pighead wrote: »

You are making the mistake of not recognising the fact that Dundalk are currently a level above your standard loi team. What is loi level in your opinion? Are you using Dundalk as your barometer or are you taking all the teams and picking the average?

I guess you have a point in that,

The Championship is an extremely tough League. But I still think most of the top ten would probably beat Dundalk. QPR, Newcastle, Villa, Norwich, Brighton, Huddersfield.
Just because it is is "figuratively" lower in terms of league level, doesn't mean the quality of team is lower.
Look at the Norwich squad, Wes, Brady, Oliviera, Naismith, Lafferty, Jerome, etc etc.
I couldn't imagine they are a level below Dundalk. If Norwich had that growing experience over games in Europe, they could take on both AZ and MCTA and beat them.

Pighead

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I guess you have a point in that,

The Championship is an extremely tough League. But I still think most of the top ten would probably beat Dundalk. QPR, Newcastle, Villa, Norwich, Brighton, Huddersfield.
Just because it is is "figuratively" lower in terms of league level, doesn't mean the quality of team is lower.
Look at the Norwich squad, Wes, Brady, Oliviera, Naismith, Lafferty, Jerome, etc etc.
I couldn't imagine they are a level below Dundalk. If Norwich had that growing experience over games in Europe, they could take on both AZ and MCTA and beat them.

To be fair I think we all would have agreed with your viewpoint a year ago but Dundalk's performance over the last six months especially have forced a rethink on just how good this team are and what level they are at.

The Talking Bread

White Horse wrote: »

Last night's game was in the Europa League, not the LOI.

I know that. You are missing my point here though. You said Norwich are an inferior team to Dundalk and Robbie Brady would "do well" in the Dundalk team as if there was ever any doubt in it. They aren't and of course he would. Brady would tear up that league

The Talking Bread

Pighead wrote: »

To be fair I think we all would have agreed with your viewpoint a year ago but Dundalk's performance over the last six months especially have forced a rethink on just how good this team are and what level they are at.

It is an interesting debate, and I would love to see, say, Southampton, a top 10 PL team take on Dundalk in next round to see what level they are at compared to Dundalk.

Confidence is a big thing though and Dundalk are blooming here, in that respect, competing in 3 competitions.

I still believe if they were to take on 7 or 8 of Championship team, they would be beaten. I am basing it a lot on man to man and level of experience though, and perhaps not taking into account the factor of team confidence and consistency

The Talking Bread

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I guess you have a point in that,

The Championship is an extremely tough League. But I still think most of the top ten would probably beat Dundalk. QPR, Newcastle, Villa, Norwich, Brighton, Huddersfield.
Just because it is is "figuratively" lower in terms of league level, doesn't mean the quality of team is lower.
Look at the Norwich squad, Wes, Brady, Oliviera, Naismith, Lafferty, Jerome, etc etc.
I couldn't imagine they are a level below Dundalk. If Norwich had that growing experience over games in Europe, they could take on both AZ and MCTA and beat them.

In terms of "quality" the Championship is probably around LoI stand IMO, save for the couple (more this year) of stand-out teams in the Championship. Main other difference in the amount of games etc. that makes the Championship so brutal.

artanevilla

The Talking Bread wrote: »

even more to the point, does he watch any Israeli football!!

I am not sure, even "on their day", any other LOI team would take a point of MTAV, never mind beat them. You could argue Cork, but Dundalk's success is now prefaced a lot on experience growing and the technical elements in facing European teams. There is no fear, no inferiority complex, no we have got this far, lets go and enjoy the game and try play good football.
They realise they can't be naive to the fact they need to take each team and their structure on its merits, whereas the style of football in LOI is "generally" the fast paced style from club to club.

Once they have that element they can go about playing their own football also and reformat their defensive structure when they lose the ball.
It is no wonder that as their European games have gone on, they are incrementally conceding less goals, and making less minor, never mind bad mistakes off the ball, even though they are facing tougher teams as they go along.
If they were to face AZ or MCTA early on, say second qualifying round, they would have that lack of experience and mindset how to swith structure from attack to defence etc and probably would have been beaten well (not because they are a worse set of players, but because they would possibly take each game "as it comes" and "play as they are accustomed" rather than "on its merits".

There was a different approach to the last three games, in terms of tactics and that is testament to a very astute manager who is clearly doing his research on teams more and more.

So, if Cork or Derry were thrown into these matches now, even though they are well able to contest and beat Dundalk on their day, I would find it hard to believe they could take results off the likes of AZ or MCTA

I didn't mean any other LOI team, my own team Bohs wouldn't be expected to get a result there.

What I do think is that the better LOI teams in the last ten or fifteen years or so would be capable of such results.

Shels in the mid noughties, Bohs 2008/2009, Rovers 2010/2011 and this Dundalk team.

I'd rate this Dundalk team as the best of those bunch certainly, but a lot of that has to do with the approach to these games, there's no fear at all.

Is anyone who's followed LOI football in this time, and this Dundalk team really suprised at the last two results? I don't think so.

Pighead

The Talking Bread wrote: »

It is an interesting debate, and I would love to see, say, Southampton, a top 10 PL team take on Dundalk in next round to see what level they are at compared to Dundalk.

Confidence is a big thing though and Dundalk are blooming here, in that respect, competing in 3 competitions.

I still believe if they were to take on 7 or 8 of Championship team, they would be beaten. I am basing it a lot on man to man and level of experience though, and perhaps not taking into account the factor of team confidence and consistency

Interestingly Southampton only drew 0-0 with an Israeli side last night who are not as good as Maccabi Tel Aviv. Outside of a league situation it's hard to assess just how good Dundalk are. So maybe you are right in saying they would struggle in the Championship. I was sure they would struggle in the Europa Group stages though and my hope was they could scrape a point somewhere along the way. They've proved me wrong and forced me to have a rethink. The downside with this season is it is going to be very hard to keep hold of the likes of Horgan and to a lesser extent McEleney and maybe Finn. This season could be as good as it gets for us. We will continue to have a very good side as long as Kenny is with us but this current side might be the best us Dundalk fans will ever see. Time will tell.

A_Sober_Paddy

Lads the championship is genuinely one of the best leagues in Europe. Which is crazy as it's the second tier of the pyramid. Better than any Scandinavian league, Belgium, Austrian, Swiss(maybe), most of eastern Europe, genuinely it's in the top 10 best leagues in Europe. It has money and endless amounts of internationals.

I'm open to correction, but when I see highlights from the mentioned leagues, or their sides I europe, they are good and all, but better than the championship I doubt it

The Talking Bread

artanevilla wrote: »

I didn't mean any other LOI team, my own team Bohs wouldn't be expected to get a result there.

What I do think is that the better LOI teams in the last ten or fifteen years or so would be capable of such results.

Shels in the mid noughties, Bohs 2008/2009, Rovers 2010/2011 and this Dundalk team.

I'd rate this Dundalk team as the best of those bunch certainly, but a lot of that has to do with the approach to these games, there's no fear at all.

Is anyone who's followed LOI football in this time, and this Dundalk team really suprised at the last two results? I don't think so.

I guess so, but it is there approach and structure in the matches that has surprised me. There tactics far supercede even their own approach to LOI games, so that nuance has been the biggest surprise. It is less and less surprising me now though as games go by.
I hope they continue this approach, it could be easy for them to switch to go a bit gung ho in games now that they have their eye on the prize, in terms of qualifying out of the group.

I also imagine burnout will start to hit them, mid October. And that could have an impact on them.