BA/Dub ATC Round 2

duskyjoe

Unfortunately Billy, that's the game we are in now. From Digital CVRs to every input on the controls is now downloadable and reviewable. Act the dork and the powers that be are on to you. I accept the social media element needs to be tempered and I hope our friend in BA may review how lethal it is to vent ones spleen on air. I have asked on numerous occasions to ATC for a supervisors number 😜 ( no not to ask her out) but over queries and with a cool head. Sometimes things just p!ss us off but losing the cool is not wise and here we are with pages of someone's actions over the net.

reason vs religion

Making this as a general point: the nature of atc-pilot communication being matter of fact and brusque, in a situation where one voices their irritation to the other, they're liable to become even more irritated.

Gaoth Laidir

While it would seem that the BA pilot was unnecessarily Ronaldo-like (after the Iceland game), I wonder if this had happened to an Irish pilot in Heathrow would there be so many negative comments towards him. There is always an anti-British overtone in some of the comments on this and other forums as plenty of Oirish line up to take a jab at the old enemy. The other pilots' comments were also uncalled for and only served to clog up the frequency. I notice they were all Irish pilots who made them too.

I welcome Tenger's sensible comment above. I don't suppose we'll ever hear the actual details of what happened but let's stop with the embarassing brit-bashing and move on. For me it's a non-event.

Fattes

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

While it would seem that the BA pilot was unnecessarily Ronaldo-like (after the Iceland game), I wonder if this had happened to an Irish pilot in Heathrow would there be so many negative comments towards him. There is always an anti-British overtone in some of the comments on this and other forums as plenty of Oirish line up to take a jab at the old enemy. The other pilots' comments were also uncalled for and only served to clog up the frequency. I notice they were all Irish pilots who made them too.

I welcome Tenger's sensible comment above. I don't suppose we'll ever hear the actual details of what happened but let's stop with the embarassing brit-bashing and move on. For me it's a non-event.

Nothing to do with Brit Bashing, the reason this came to light is the repeated behavior of one airlines pilots towards the tower. The ATC voice (L) is one of the most capable and respected controllers in the tower, the reaction from the other pilots speaks volumes about what happened last week, and the respect they have for L.

If the same scenario played out with an Italian, Spanish or German pilot with the same history we would be having the same conversation.

smoke_mirrors

out of curiosity, how do we know the replies came from pilots and not people on the ground etc?

Shannon757

smoke_mirrors wrote: »

out of curiosity, how do we know the replies came from pilots and not people on the ground etc?

Because people on the ground tend not to be on departures frequencies.

Bussywussy

Shannon757 wrote: »

Because people on the ground tend not to be on departures frequencies.

It was the ground frequency was it not?? Lots of vehicles have radios,aircraft under tow etc that tune to delivery/ground.

Shannon757

Bussywussy wrote: »

It was the ground frequency was it not?? Lots of vehicles have radios,aircraft under tow etc that tune to delivery/ground.

Oops. I must have got mixed up

EchoIndia

Fattes wrote: »

Nothing to do with Brit Bashing, the reason this came to light is the repeated behavior of one airlines pilots towards the tower.

Unless working in ATC, I don't think anyone here is in a position to make a judgement as to the "repeated behaviour" of BA crews towards Dublin ATC. I have been monitoring ATC as a hobby for 40 years or so and until the last year or so (when certain Youtube postings from LiveATC started) it has never been suggested that a particular company's crews had an attitude problem with ATC in Dublin. BA has 128 A320-family aircraft so it doesn't take a genius to work out that they have multiples of this in terms of pilot numbers; therefore how anyone could make a sweeping allegation that BA come to Dublin or anywhere else with a particular attitude to ATC, I don't know. I have seen commentary from within the pilot community that DUB is a particularly complex airport to operate into, with a large volume of activity crammed into fairly compact ramp and taxiway areas. It's also been suggested that while ATC are good, they issue complex instructions at a rapid pace and sometimes in non-standard phraseology. So, there is usually more than one perspective on any issue.

By the way, a poster on PPrune states at
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/580570-ba-pilot-again-dublin-3.html

"Some facts. Yes, facts.
1. The YouTube clip is heavily edited.
2. The amended clearance to the Stobart ATR was partially blocked, crucially their callsign was blocked. This IS captured in the YouTube clip, and was also confirmed by DUB duty ATC manager to the ATR Captain later that evening after the tapes had been reviewed in the ATC listening room.
3. Because the amended clearance to the ATR was blocked it was never acknowledged by the Stobart crew, and as such the initial "subject to RYR" remained their valid clearance.
4. The BA took 5 mins to commence pushback, by which time the Stobart was well underway.

All facts, all verified."

Silverbling

billy few mates wrote: »

Regardless of who's wrong and who's right in this particular case, threads like this one and the many others that have sprung up on the internet about it give ordinary Joe Soaps a rare opportunity to pass judgement on the professionalism (or otherwise) of an airline pilot and a British one to boot.
Many of the armchair regulators will find against him for that reason alone it doesn't really matter which side you choose...

And gives us huge insights and confidence into air traffic control at Dublin airport, that lady has our lives in her hands (as a joe soap with an ex stewardess parent who had some hairy tales to tell 20 years ago) after listening to a few recordings now, she is cool, calm, collected and direct just what you need in an emergency

I am really enjoying this thread, my mother started with Brittania in the days of chalk boards and sending out empty planes where the captain had a gold card to entertain the crew for 7 days, a delay would put them out of hours after a week on the beach and someone erasing the chalk board would turn an overnight into a week until the PAX were returning

Off topic but as a teenager if she was on standby on an empty plane I used to be baby sat on the jump seat in the cockpit, spend a few hours in Spain then be put in a seat and told not to speak as she worked the flight back, a completely different world!

Fattes

EchoIndia wrote: »

Unless working in ATC, I don't think anyone here is in a position to make a judgement as to the "repeated behaviour" of BA crews towards Dublin ATC. I have been monitoring ATC as a hobby for 40 years or so and until the last year or so (when certain Youtube postings from LiveATC started) it has never been suggested that a particular company's crews had an attitude problem with ATC in Dublin. BA has 128 A320-family aircraft so it doesn't take a genius to work out that they have multiples of this in terms of pilot numbers; therefore how anyone could make a sweeping allegation that BA come to Dublin or anywhere else with a particular attitude to ATC, I don't know. I have seen commentary from within the pilot community that DUB is a particularly complex airport to operate into, with a large volume of activity crammed into fairly compact ramp and taxiway areas. It's also been suggested that while ATC are good, they issue complex instructions at a rapid pace and sometimes in non-standard phraseology. So, there is usually more than one perspective on any issue.

By the way, a poster on PPrune states at
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/580570-ba-pilot-again-dublin-3.html

"Some facts. Yes, facts.
1. The YouTube clip is heavily edited.
2. The amended clearance to the Stobart ATR was partially blocked, crucially their callsign was blocked. This IS captured in the YouTube clip, and was also confirmed by DUB duty ATC manager to the ATR Captain later that evening after the tapes had been reviewed in the ATC listening room.
3. Because the amended clearance to the ATR was blocked it was never acknowledged by the Stobart crew, and as such the initial "subject to RYR" remained their valid clearance.
4. The BA took 5 mins to commence pushback, by which time the Stobart was well underway.

All facts, all verified."

Some facts, the full recording unedited is available online! Monitoring ATC for 40 years you know that all ready though. My post above is based on multiple and extended conversation with ATC staff, including the lovely lady voice featured on the recording and her colleagues.

reason vs religion

Fattes wrote: »

Some facts, the full recording unedited is available online! Monitoring ATC for 40 years you know that all ready though. My post above is based on multiple and extended conversation with ATC staff, including the lovely lady voice featured on the recording and her colleagues.

How does having talked to the necessarily-biased Irish controller give you a privelaged perspective?

Fattes

reason vs religion wrote: »

How does having talked to the necessarily-biased Irish controller give you a privelaged perspective?

I wouldn't call it biased, I have a 2 close friends who are in the tower in Dublin and another 2/3 casual acquaintances, that I know in passing including the female voice on this recording. Nor did I say privileged perspective. Over the past 12-18 months the issue of BA flights has come up in general ariplane nerd conversation with a number of the ATC staff. Having a little awareness of a greater set of circumstances outside of a single incident or one days ATC communication allows for a broader picture of a number of issues that have been noted over the past 12-18 months. It also allows me to be aware that the female voice on the recording is one of the most well respected staff in the tower by both flight crews and her piers.

martinsvi

Fattes wrote: »

Some facts, the full recording unedited is available online! Monitoring ATC for 40 years you know that all ready though. My post above is based on multiple and extended conversation with ATC staff, including the lovely lady voice featured on the recording and her colleagues.

where is that full recording? If you refer to liveatc.net I hope you realize that this feed has around 8 frequencies on one feed, meaning that when one comes active, the other ones are muted for time being. You can't rely on this recording to give you a full picture of what was said on a specific frequency

EchoIndia

Fattes wrote: »

Some facts, the full recording unedited is available online! Monitoring ATC for 40 years you know that all ready though.

I fail to see the connection. Glad if you could post the link to the unedited recording, though.

Tenger

Fattes wrote: »

Some facts, the full recording unedited is available online! Monitoring ATC for 40 years you know that all ready though..

Can you provide a link to this "full recording unedited"........... because this entire furore is based off a youtube video which has been posted in a version that has been edited.

And that female ATCO is respected by her peers, we already know this, no one is disputing that point.

as an aside as best as I can tell the Stobart was on 130 pushing for B and Speedbird was on 201 pushing for C.