Praying to Mary

Asaiah · 03-10-2019 10:21am

Asaiah wrote: »

Hi all,

I have one major issue with the Catholic church and that is devotion to Mary. Now as a Christian I love and respect Mary, she is the most honoured woman in history as she was chosen to carry the messiah, the son of God. The word of God made flesh Jesus Christ.

However it seems excessive in modern Catholicism. Where Mary has taken a central role and people pray directly to her. I've seen crosses featuring the trinity plus Mary. I've heard her called the queen of heaven. As a bible reader from a young age I've seen no evidence for Mary being queen of heaven.

Jesus said that he is the only mediator between man and the Father.

Is devotion and prayer to Mary an essential part of Catholicism? Is Mary the queen of heaven and/or the co-redemptrix?

Christains of all flavours, What are your thoughts on the Mary?

I started this thread a few years ago and since then I've been through some rough times. I fell back on my Catholic faith, and after an intense period of studying the history and beliefs of the early Church Fathers I eventually found Orthodoxy, which I believe is the true original Church before the Roman Papacy asserted itself as the ruler of the Church.

I regret what I said before about Mary. For me now praying to her, and the Saints makes perfect sense as they are alive and with Christ where they can petition Him directly. I have had miracles occur in my family during desperate times where I prayed to God, and Mary the Most Holy Theotokos to pray for us and my prayers have been answered.

To all my Orthodox and Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, please forgive my offence. Glory to God in all things and may the Mother of God keep you under her protective veil.

Leroy42 · 03-10-2019 1:30pm

So before we had direct link to God. Then we need to go through Jesus. And now we need Mary, a human, to pray to to get heard?

Asaiah · 03-10-2019 3:27pm

No we don't need the Saints or Mary to pray to God. The only way to God is through Jesus Christ. However Christians believe in everlasting life, the Saints therefore are alive and just as a person would ask someone on Earth to pray for them, we can ask Mary or another Saint to pray for us. The 'cloud of witnesses' as mentioned in the Bible. It's also important to remember that God chose Mary as the God Bearer, she is the most Blessed human being to have ever lived (Besides Christ himself). As it's written, all generations will call her Blessed.

hinault · 06-10-2019 4:40am

Asaiah wrote: »

Hi all,

I have one major issue with the Catholic church and that is devotion to Mary. Now as a Christian I love and respect Mary, she is the most honoured woman in history as she was chosen to carry the messiah, the son of God. The word of God made flesh Jesus Christ.

However it seems excessive in modern Catholicism. Where Mary has taken a central role and people pray directly to her. I've seen crosses featuring the trinity plus Mary. I've heard her called the queen of heaven. As a bible reader from a young age I've seen no evidence for Mary being queen of heaven.

Jesus said that he is the only mediator between man and the Father.

Is devotion and prayer to Mary an essential part of Catholicism? Is Mary the queen of heaven and/or the co-redemptrix?

Christains of all flavours, What are your thoughts on the Mary?

**Dulia **is the reverence and prayers offered to saints and angels.

**Hyperdulia **is the reverence and prayers offered only to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

**Latria **is that worship and adoration and prayer offered ONLY to God ALONE

uck51js9zml2yt · 06-10-2019 3:51pm

hinault wrote: »

**Dulia **is the reverence and prayers offered to saints and angels.

**Hyperdulia **is the reverence and prayers offered only to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Interesting that someone thought about devising a name to cover idolatry and necromancy.

Sagats_knee · 07-10-2019 2:53am

Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »

Interesting that someone thought about devising a name to cover idolatry and necromancy.

Christians believe in Eternal life. The Saints are alive and praying to God, you can ask them to pray for you too just like you’d ask a friend.

uck51js9zml2yt · 07-10-2019 6:48am

Sagats_knee wrote: »

Christians believe in Eternal life. The Saints are alive and praying to God, you can ask them to pray for you too just like you’d ask a friend. All worship and glory goes to God, but we venerate (show great respect) to the Saints and ask them to put in a word for us to God. It’s not a requirement, but rather a perk of being part of the Church. The prayers of the Saints are powerful, because they have great Faith, and we know what Christ said about faith and the power of prayer.

Every one born again of the Spirit of God is a Saint. It's not some special title given someone by a committee as is the case with the RCC.

Peregrinus · 07-10-2019 7:28am

Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »

Every one born again of the Spirit of God is a Saint. It's not some special title given someone by a committee as is the case with the RCC.

I don't think your grasp of the RCC position on this is terribly sound, tat.

splinter65 · 07-10-2019 7:43am

Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »

Every one born again of the Spirit of God is a Saint. It's not some special title given someone by a committee as is the case with the RCC.

But that’s not the position of the RCC. If you don’t like/understand the RCC position about Our Lady and the Saints that’s your choice.
Why do you not just get on with your own version of Christianity and let Catholics do their thing?
Catholics aren’t trying to stop you from doing your thing.
Why do you want to argue and fight with Catholics about it?

splinter65 · 07-10-2019 7:46am

Leroy42 wrote: »

So before we had direct link to God. Then we need to go through Jesus. And now we need Mary, a human, to pray to to get heard?

No. You can pray directly to God. Jesus is God. And/Or you can ask Our Lady and/or the Saints to intercede on your behalf.

homer911 · 07-10-2019 8:44am

I think this is a topic Protestants and Roman Catholics will never agree on. Protestants believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and that it stands on its own. I understand Roman Catholics believe in the value of church tradition as being equally important. If we cant agree on this, we will never agree on the subject of praying to Mary or the "saints".

Fundamentally it comes down to what's important for salvation. Protestants will say that its by faith alone in Christ alone based on scripture alone - you cannot earn salvation and salvation only comes through faith in Jesus as revealed through scripture and the Holy Spirit . As I'm not Roman Catholic, I'm not going to voice that church's position

uck51js9zml2yt · 07-10-2019 9:11am

splinter65 wrote: »

But that’s not the position of the RCC. If you don’t like/understand the RCC position about Our Lady and the Saints that’s your choice.
Why do you not just get on with your own version of Christianity and let Catholics do their thing?
Catholics aren’t trying to stop you from doing your thing.
Why do you want to argue and fight with Catholics about it?

That's exactly the position of the RCC with more people made saints under recent pope's than at any under time.

When an angel which is higher in the created order than a man says not to bow down or worship him, we should take heed not to worship and of God's other creations.

Peregrinus · 07-10-2019 9:21am

Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »

That's exactly the position of the RCC with more people made saints under recent pope's than at any under time.

When an angel which is higher in the created order than a man says not to bow down or worship him, we should take heed not to worship and of God's other creations.

Yeah, but, as we know, there's a big difference between:

(a) recognising someone's sanctity; and

(b) giving to someone the worship that is due to God alone.

Try not to muddy the waters, please.

Leroy42 · 07-10-2019 1:12pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

So before we had direct link to God. Then we need to go through Jesus. And now we need Mary, a human, to pray to to get heard?

No. You can pray directly to God. Jesus is God. And/Or you can ask Our Lady and/or the Saints to intercede on your behalf.

But the question would be why? I get the praying to Jesus and or God, one in the same.

But praying to someone else to intercede when you already have a direct contact?

Makes no sense.

nthclare · 07-10-2019 1:21pm

Sometimes it sounds like there's someone up there on a switch board....

If God's so powerful why does he feel the need of validation from the likes of us, and not even having a tea break or holiday's etc

Saints on their knees for all eternity praying for us to God on behalf of us.

I used to be a believer and turned pagan myself, because all the contradictions in The Abrahamic religions are enough to baffle my cognition.

I know there's probably a thread to discuss the existence of God but I don't want to deflect your debate or discussion.

I myself think that if the Abrahamic God existed it could more or less be a sand demon from the middle East... which was up to no good and trickery etc

splinter65 · 07-10-2019 1:59pm

Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »

That's exactly the position of the RCC with more people made saints under recent pope's than at any under time.

When an angel which is higher in the created order than a man says not to bow down or worship him, we should take heed not to worship and of God's other creations.

If you’re not a Catholic then why are you so bothered about what Catholics do?

uck51js9zml2yt · 07-10-2019 3:44pm

splinter65 wrote: »

If you’re not a Catholic then why are you so bothered about what Catholics do?

I could ask you the same question but since these are open forums we can ask questions and disagree.

splinter65 · 07-10-2019 3:56pm

Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »

I could ask you the same question but since these are open forums we can ask questions and disagree.

You couldn’t ask me the same question really because I’m not interested in who anyone else worships or how they worship and I certainly am not interested in criticizing or ridiculing the practices and traditions of other Christian churches.
I can’t see how what Catholics believe in or don’t believe in affects you.
Catholics are certainly not preventing you from practicing your religion.
I don’t know what you hope to achieve in the criticizing.

uck51js9zml2yt · 07-10-2019 6:43pm

splinter65 wrote: »

You couldn’t ask me the same question really because I’m not interested in who anyone else worships or how they worship and I certainly am not interested in criticizing or ridiculing the practices and traditions of other Christian churches.
I can’t see how what Catholics believe in or don’t believe in affects you.
Catholics are certainly not preventing you from practicing your religion.
I don’t know what you hope to achieve in the criticizing.

You call it criticism, I call it pointing out a biblical basis and something which though accepted by some has no biblical basis.

Replacing the word of God with the traditions of men isn't a new thing.

The only other being called the "queen of heaven " was Ashteroth.

Sagats_knee · 08-10-2019 12:26am

Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »

Every one born again of the Spirit of God is a Saint. It's not some special title given someone by a committee as is the case with the RCC.

I never said otherwise. Totally agree.

Sagats_knee · 08-10-2019 12:35am

Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »

You call it criticism, I call it pointing out a biblical basis and something which though accepted by some has no biblical basis.

Replacing the word of God with the traditions of men isn't a new thing.

The only other being called the "queen of heaven " was Ashteroth.

The Church is not the Bible. Christ didn’t leave us a collection of books, He left us the Church. The Church existed before the Bible, the Church compiled/Wrote the Bible. You talk about idolatry but you worship the Bible and disregard the Living Body of Christ.

Peregrinus · 08-10-2019 2:13am

Leroy42 wrote: »

But the question would be why? I get the praying to Jesus and or God, one in the same.

But praying to someone else to intercede when you already have a direct contact?

Makes no sense.

And yet, as we have already noted, Christians of the protestant traditions routinely ask others to intercede on their behalf, or for their intentions. Does that make any more sense?

uck51js9zml2yt · 08-10-2019 10:20am

Sagats_knee wrote: »

The Church is not the Bible. Christ didn’t leave us a collection of books, He left us the Church. The Church existed before the Bible, the Church compiled/Wrote the Bible. You talk about idolatry but you worship the Bible and disregard the Living Body of Christ.

I assume you refer to the new testament. The old testament predates the Church and the Church wasn't Roman Catholic.
Btw. I'm not Protestant and agree some protestants do worship the Bible.
However the Bible is the final authority. If a church belief contradicts it, then only one is wrong and it's not the Bible.

branie2 · 08-10-2019 10:31am

I don't think Protestants worship the Bible

homer911 · 08-10-2019 12:35pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

And yet, as we have already noted, Christians of the protestant traditions routinely ask others to intercede on their behalf, or for their intentions. Does that make any more sense?

From https://www.gotquestions.org/praying-for-others.html

Praying for others is important because it fulfills a New Testament command. We are to pray for all people (1 Timothy 2:1). We are to pray for government leaders (1 Timothy 2:2). We are to pray for the unsaved (1 Timothy 2:3). We are to pray for fellow Christians (Ephesians 6:18). We are to pray for ministers of the gospel (Ephesians 6:19–20). We are to pray for the persecuted church (Hebrews 13:3). Praying for others gets our focus off of ourselves and onto the needs around us. As we “carry each other’s burdens,” we “will fulfill the law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2).

So prayers of intercession are absolutely biblically based. As a non Roman Catholic, I'm uncomfortable with the with the word "intentions" as used by Roman Catholics - to me it smacks of a works-based salvation. I can absolutely see how it would not point to this (for example if I saw a street preacher at work and prayed for his work and purpose) but that's not the first thing I think of.

The Bible makes no reference to praying for or to the dead and that's where we go our different ways

Sagats_knee · 08-10-2019 3:16pm

homer911 wrote: »

From https://www.gotquestions.org/praying-for-others.html

Praying for others is important because it fulfills a New Testament command. We are to pray for all people (1 Timothy 2:1). We are to pray for government leaders (1 Timothy 2:2). We are to pray for the unsaved (1 Timothy 2:3). We are to pray for fellow Christians (Ephesians 6:18). We are to pray for ministers of the gospel (Ephesians 6:19–20). We are to pray for the persecuted church (Hebrews 13:3). Praying for others gets our focus off of ourselves and onto the needs around us. As we “carry each other’s burdens,” we “will fulfill the law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2).

So prayers of intercession are absolutely biblically based. As a non Roman Catholic, I'm uncomfortable with the with the word "intentions" as used by Roman Catholics - to me it smacks of a works-based salvation. I can absolutely see how it would not point to this (for example if I saw a street preacher at work and prayed for his work and purpose) but that's not the first thing I think of.

The Bible makes no reference to praying for or to the dead and that's where we go our different ways

Got questions is a heavily biased source that disregards the teachings of the early church fathers.

The Saints are not dead. We believe in eternal life for the saved.

Sagats_knee · 08-10-2019 6:08pm

Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »

I assume you refer to the new testament. The old testament predates the Church and the Church wasn't Roman Catholic.
Btw. I'm not Protestant and agree some protestants do worship the Bible.
However the Bible is the final authority. If a church belief contradicts it, then only one is wrong and it's not the Bible.

Technically the Roman Catholic Church can trace it’s way back through its bishops all the way to the Apostles. As can the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox etc. One can argue which of these is the true church, but one cannot deny that they all have Apostolic succession in terms of the laying on of hands and ordaining bishops. They have the records of Bishops all the way back to the early Church fathers. The Protestants and the modern churches aren’t even in the game when it comes to being the true Church. (The Lutherans May have some loose claim to Apostolic succession as do the Anglicans).

As for the Old Testament, yes the individual books predate the compilation of the Bible, but it was the Catholic Church (the pre schism unified church) that selected which of these went in according to their merit. That list has changed at various times depending on the denomination.

Personally I think the Roman Church is a branch cut from the vine which is bearing bad fruit, and for that reason I am no longer RC but Orthodox. However we agree on many things, including praying to Saints.

uck51js9zml2yt · 08-10-2019 6:38pm

Sagats_knee wrote: »

Technically the Roman Catholic Church can trace it’s way back through its bishops all the way to the Apostles. As can the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox etc. One can argue which of these is the true church, but one cannot deny that they all have Apostolic succession in terms of the laying on of hands and ordaining bishops. They have the records of Bishops all the way back to the early Church fathers. The Protestants and the modern churches aren’t even in the game when it comes to being the true Church. (The Lutherans May have some loose claim to Apostolic succession as do the Anglicans).

As for the Old Testament, yes the individual books predate the compilation of the Bible, but it was the Catholic Church (the pre schism unified church) that selected which of these went in according to their merit. That list has changed at various times depending on the denomination.

Personally I think the Roman Church is a branch cut from the vine which is bearing bad fruit, and for that reason I am no longer RC but Orthodox. However we agree on many things, including praying to Saints.

You see, that's where we differ. There is nothing in the Bible that speaks of apostolic succession. No one held a position because someone else had it. As for the RCC, that was nothing but a split from the EOC over who had the biggest mitre which resulted in 2 pope's.

The RCC became a state religion with the true Church of Jesus Christ always in existence outside of it, adhering to that which was laid down in the letters written.
As for the RCC doctrines many of them have no basis in scripture. Praying for the dead, indulgences, purgatory, springing with water making someone a Christian, Maryolatry and the various titles she was given.
As for its "technical tracing" just because it says so, doesn't make it true.

Btw, I'm not a Protestant.

pearcider · 08-10-2019 6:42pm

Leia Nutritious Murk wrote: »

You see, that's where we differ. There is nothing in the Bible that speaks of apostolic succession. No one held a position because someone else had it. As for the RCC, that was nothing but a split from the EOC over who had the biggest mitre which resulted in 2 pope's.

The RCC became a state religion with the true Church of Jesus Christ always in existence outside of it, adhering to that which was laid down in the letters written.
As for the RCC doctrines many of them have no basis in scripture. Praying for the dead, indulgences, purgatory, springing with water making someone a Christian, Maryolatry and the various titles she was given.
As for its "technical tracing" just because it says so, doesn't make it true.

Btw, I'm not a Protestant.

I kind of agree with you here but I still believe in the major Marian apparitions especially Fatima. Very significant to human history in my opinion especially regarding Russia.

homer911 · 09-10-2019 9:08am

Sagats_knee wrote: »

Got questions is a heavily biased source that disregards the teachings of the early church fathers.

That would depend on your definition of bias. If it is bias to prioritize the word of God over these alleged teachings of the early church fathers then Yes, I am happy they are biased, especially where these teachings are contradictory to what is taught in the Bible, and this from the Christian sect that deterred its members from reading the bible for centuries

I apologise that my response is sectarian but your views are worthy of correction. Personally I couldn't give a monkeys over so called apostolic succession - its like saying I'm a Christian because my great-great grandfather was a Christian

Leroy42 · 09-10-2019 9:14am

homer911 wrote: »

I apologise that my response is sectarian but your views are worthy of correction. Personally I couldn't give a monkeys over so called apostolic succession - its like saying I'm a Christian because my great-great grandfather was a Christian

Well change great-great grandfather to parents and it is basically the reason why the majority of people believe in the religion they do.

Sagats_knee · 10-10-2019 12:36am

homer911 wrote: »

That would depend on your definition of bias. If it is bias to prioritize the word of God over these alleged teachings of the early church fathers then Yes, I am happy they are biased, especially where these teachings are contradictory to what is taught in the Bible, and this from the Christian sect that deterred its members from reading the bible for centuries

I apologise that my response is sectarian but your views are worthy of correction. Personally I couldn't give a monkeys over so called apostolic succession - its like saying I'm a Christian because my great-great grandfather was a Christian

The great commission happened. And those people, including the Apostles had students/acolytes. We have their writings, thousands of pages! I recommend reading some of them to see what they believed. I’ll give you a clue, they weren’t Calvinists.

The prohibition of studying the bible and the likes of that came centuries later from the Latin Church.

kelly1 · 30-10-2019 3:05pm

Guys, I haven't read all the posts here and I don't intend to...

Discussion like these stem from the unfortunate fact that "protestants" regard the bible alone as the rule of faith and disregard Catholic Tradition. That's a mistake. The bible is clear on the value of Tradition as well as the Early Church Fathers and popes. Scripture *and* Tradition are the two indispensable pillars of the Church.

When you throw away Tradition, you also throw away the very core of the faith i.e. the Mass and the sacraments.

Leroy42 · 31-10-2019 12:26am

But surely the mass and sacraments are based on the divinity of the bible? Without the core being the bible what justification is their for the sacraments or mass?

kelly1 · 31-10-2019 12:52am

Leroy42 wrote: »

But surely the mass and sacraments are based on the divinity of the bible? Without the core being the bible what justification is their for the sacraments or mass?

It helps to remember that Mass and the sacraments came before the bible so they can't be based on the bible. Tradition is essentially the preservation and transmission of the deposit of faith and the bible doesn't fully describe Tradition.

Leroy42 · 31-10-2019 5:41pm

kelly1 wrote: »

It helps to remember that Mass and the sacraments came before the bible so they can't be based on the bible. Tradition is essentially the preservation and transmission of the deposit of faith and the bible doesn't fully describe Tradition.

I am confused. I thought the Bible was the word of God, by definition it must be timeless. The actual time it was put on paper is irrelevant. So whilst there may well have been masses prior to it being written, what were those masses based on? I would assume they were based on Jesus and his teachings, and the OT, which were then written as the bible.

If the bible doesn't fully describe tradition it brings up some questions. 1st, what are the traditions based on. 2nd, just because it is tradition doesn't make it right or indeed even relevant to God.

Perhaps you could explain it a bit more so I can understand.

homer911 · 31-10-2019 8:49pm

kelly1 wrote: »

The bible is clear on the value of Tradition

I'd love to hear your take on this

kelly1 · 04-11-2019 7:29pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

I am confused. I thought the Bible was the word of God, by definition it must be timeless. The actual time it was put on paper is irrelevant. So whilst there may well have been masses prior to it being written, what were those masses based on? I would assume they were based on Jesus and his teachings, and the OT, which were then written as the bible.

Yes, of course, the bible is the word of God but it came *after* the founding of the Church. Tradition was established by Christ and handed down to the Apostles, who preserved it orally and in their writings (epistles, encyclicals etc)

The first Masses were based on instructions given by Christ, obviously not what was writing in the New Testament, since that came maybe 200(?) years later. I'm sure the rubrics of the Mass would have come, to some degree, from the Old Testament too since the Mass was the new covenant established between God and man (Mt 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.)

Leroy42 wrote: »

If the bible doesn't fully describe tradition it brings up some questions. 1st, what are the traditions based on. 2nd, just because it is tradition doesn't make it right or indeed even relevant to God.

Tradition is essentially the deposit of faith handed down orally to the Apostles by Christ. I'm guessing the Apostles took notes, maybe.

So if it was handed down by Christ, that makes it perfectly right and relevant.

kelly1 · 04-11-2019 7:42pm

homer911 wrote: »

I'd love to hear your take on this

e.g.

2 Thess 2:15 "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

2 Tim 2:2 "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me"

Rom. 10:17 "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ"

1 Cor. 15:3 "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. . . . Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed"

1 Cor. 11:2 "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you"

Praying to Mary

Comments