Driving with an expired licence

rob316

My wife was involved in an accident yesterday, not her fault, other driver admitted liability. She called the Gardaí and they asked for her licence and cert of Insurance which she didn't have either on her at the time so she has to produce in 10 days.

She was going to bringing them down today to the station but it turns out her provisional licence expired a bit over 12 months ago (honest mistake its been a hard year, no excuse I know).

Question is will the other insurance company still cover our car and what sort of fine/penalty is she looking at from the gardai for driving on an expired provisional/permit.

Thanks.

Atlantic Dawn

The other insurer will cover her car regardless once other driver is at fault. Your wife may receive a fine, hard to know, best apply for a new one asap. Also wife should not drive the car for risk of being caught a 2nd time and if she was to be involved in an accident her insurer would cover the 3rd party damage but may not cover damage to her car as her licence is expired.

MarkAnthony

It's 3rd party cover only but that shouldn't be an issue if the other party was at fault. I'm a bit curious how she got insurance on an expired permit. I assume she was accompanied with L plates. If not you can add that into the mix and it'll be a potential court appearance depending really.

Better hope the other side doesn't get wind of the fact the driver had not licence or it could be used as a bargaining position and stories may change.

rob316

MarkAnthony wrote: »

It's 3rd party cover only but that shouldn't be an issue if the other party was at fault. I'm a bit curious how she got insurance on an expired permit. I assume she was accompanied with L plates. If not you can add that into the mix and it'll be a potential court appearance depending really.

Better hope the other side doesn't get wind of the fact the driver had not licence or it could be used as a bargaining position and stories may change.

I know I also drive the car and I only switched to a new company last year and I was never asked for any licence details when I applied for either of us.

Ya she was driving unaccompanied too so she can add that into the mix.
She is off the road now, has an appointment tomorrow to get a new permit.

Thanks for the replies folks.

MarkAnthony

rob316 wrote: »

I know I also drive the car and I only switched to a new company last year and I was never asked for any licence details when I applied for either of us.

Ya she was driving unaccompanied too so she can add that into the mix.
She is off the road now, has an appointment tomorrow to get a new permit.

Thanks for the replies folks.

Get as much in order as possible, apply for a new permit etc. and hope the guards are in a good mood.

Cabaal

Surely if she was driving on a expired license she was driving without a license and valid insurance?
After all you can't have valid insurance without a valid license.

rob316

Cabaal wrote: »

Surely if she was driving on a expired license she was driving without a license and valid insurance?
After all you can't have valid insurance without a valid license.

From what I read online as long as you had a licence and haven't been disqualified your insurance is valid.

punisher5112

Full licence holder has a licence for 10 years some less but if let go out of date 10 years and a day they must re sit test and theory.

Provisional/learner permit is similar but the limit applies to 5 years and day over they must re do theory and start over.


You will be covered 3rd party if at fault but insurer can and may come after for costs if at fault as your insurance may be void.

Op in your case other will cover but wife may receive a fixed penalty and 2 points depending on fine there are 2 where one is 60 with 2 points and 80 with 2 points.

GM228

rob316 wrote: »

From what I read online as long as you had a licence and haven't been disqualified your insurance is valid.

Insurance is always valid for TP, it must be under EU law irrespective of any other factor such as no licence, no tax, intoxication etc, what may not be valid is cover for non third party claims i.e your own claims/damages

Most insurance companies have similar T&Cs to this (from Liberty):-

3. We will not cover the driver unless;
a they hold a valid licence to drive the
vehicle; and
b they meet the conditions and any
limits of the driving licence.

km991148

rob316 wrote: »

My wife was involved in an accident yesterday, not her fault,

Could this now be challenged now that it is true an unqualified driver was in control of the vehicle? i.e. could it have been argued that a qualified driver would have been able to avoid etc?

Hope your wife is ok op

Special Circumstances

GM228 wrote: »

Insurance is always valid for TP, it must be under EU law irrespective of any other factor such as no licence, no tax, intoxication etc, what may not be valid is cover for non third party claims i.e your own claims/damages

Most insurance companies have similar T&Cs to this (from Liberty):-

In my experience most said something like "has, or has ever held, a valid* licence and is not disqualified".
But it's quite possible that a lot of companies are changing these conditions, they seem willing to try anything negative.

*In the case of a learner permit though... possibly some other clause applies. Common sense would say the spirit of the most common clause was "you have or had a full licence and it hasn't been revoked, but may have expired"

CiniO

GM228 wrote: »

Insurance is always valid for TP, it must be under EU law irrespective of any other factor such as no licence, no tax, intoxication etc,

That is true that insurer is obliged to pay out a claim to thrid party, even if driver was unlicensed, intoxicated, etc (all under EU law), but the same EU law allows insurers to recoup the money paid, back from the driver.

So what's the difference that insurer will pay 50k claim, if they could ask a driver who was intoxicated, or unlicensed to pay it back to them.

coylemj

km991148 wrote: »

Could this now be challenged now that it is true an unqualified driver was in control of the vehicle? i.e. could it have been argued that a qualified driver would have been able to avoid etc?

No, you can't validly make that argument. You can't transfer blame/liability from one driver to the other just because the other driver didn't have a full licence.

If one of the drivers had drink taken then it does tend to go against them if there is a crash and it's otherwise not a clearcut case of who is to blame but one driver not having a full licence would not swing things in one direction or another, partly because most of the sh1te drivers out there do have a full licence.

rob316

km991148 wrote: »

Could this now be challenged now that it is true an unqualified driver was in control of the vehicle? i.e. could it have been argued that a qualified driver would have been able to avoid etc?

Hope your wife is ok op

She's grand cheers. A truck backed into her, the front of the car is ruined though, don't know how she could have avoided that, qualified or not.

Special Circumstances

rob316 wrote: »

From what I read online as long as you had a licence and haven't been disqualified your insurance is valid.

For full licences this was my understanding of the most common version too.
But..
Does a "learners permit" count as a "valid licence". I don't think it should.

savagethegoat

her license makes no difference to an ins claim on someone else's policy. What the Gards do about it is another matter.
I'd imagine if the lorry backed into her she was stationary, and thus not driving at all, much the same as if the truck had backed into a parked car.

whomitconcerns

Her permit does not cover "must hold or has held" criteria. She was an unlicensed driver at the time of the accident. Third party is covered regardless, anything else is a Gardai issue, to prosecute or not.

So to correct the title not driving with an expired licence, should read driving with no licence.

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

but the same EU law allows insurers to recoup the money paid, back from the driver.

You sure about that?

My understanding is the only EU laws on recouping monies paid for motor insurance is between bureaus of different states.

Recouping money from a policy holder would be a matter of dispute between a policy holder and their insurer which is not covered by the directives.

CiniO

GM228 wrote: »

You sure about that?

My understanding is the only EU laws on recouping monies paid for motor insurance is between bureaus of different states.

Recouping money from a policy holder would be a matter of dispute between a policy holder and their insurer which is not covered by the directives.

Well I never actually looked up that EU directive in question, but considering every car insurance policy issued in the EU, states that they can recoup the cost of a claim from a driver in such cases, makes me kinda think that this must be EU wide requirement.

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

Well I never actually looked up that EU directive in question, but considering every car insurance policy issued in the EU, states that they can recoup the cost of a claim from a driver in such cases, makes me kinda think that this must be EU wide requirement.

I've looked at it several times in the past and from what I remember it's not in it, it may be standard accross the EU, but recouping payments would be a civil matter and as such any dispute between the insurers and the policy holders and not covered and be subject to national law, not EU law.

It's basically a standard contractual term as opposed to an EU provision.

Esel

Hopefully she will have her new permit within the 10 days. She should produce that along with insurance certificate. If asked about date, she should explain how the previous permit was allowed to lapse. Discretion may be applied.

If she does not have the new permit in time, she should produce insurance and explain that she has applied for a new permit. Discretion may still be applied.

Or not...

whomitconcerns

No offence but I think it would be a dangerous precedent to allow an unlicensed driver discretion. It would make a mockery of the entire system.

Bad enough if only on a valid learner permit, but where do we stop if we allow leeway to someone who did not have and has never held a driving licence?

Sorry OP, I know it was unintentional and all, but from an overall point if view, there really does have to be a line somewhere.

Esel

whomitconcerns wrote: »

No offence but I think it would be a dangerous precedent to allow an unlicensed driver discretion. It would make a mockery of the entire system.

Bad enough if only on a valid learner permit, but where do we stop if we allow leeway to someone who did not have and has never held a driving licence?

Sorry OP, I know it was unintentional and all, but from an overall point if view, there really does have to be a line somewhere.

We are talking about a driver with an expired licence/permit. That is different from 'unlicensed' afaik.

Marcusm

Esel wrote: »

We are talking about a driver with an expired licence/permit. That is different from 'unlicensed' afaik.

Nope; a person with a learners permit is never licensed whether expired or not.

Sam Kade

Special Circumstances wrote: »

For full licences this was my understanding of the most common version too.
But..
Does a "learners permit" count as a "valid licence". I don't think it should.

It's a permit to allow you to drive with a full licence driver.

Cabaal

Sam Kade wrote: »

It's a permit to allow you to drive with a full licence driver.

Which I believe the op said was not in the car, so they were essentialy unlicensed as they didn't even have a permit to be classed as driving unaccompanied

Special Circumstances

Sam Kade wrote: »

It's a permit to allow you to drive with a full licence driver.

Funny how with all the "sledgehammer to crack a nut" / "collateral damage" antics of insurance companies... they've never really forced the issue about cover for unaccompanied permit holders.

Or the 1/3 of drivers in fatal accidents with no licence, and 1/3 with no insurance. Not necessarily the same 1/3... but a fair amount of overlap I suppose.

They seem ok with unaccompanied drivers, unlicenced and uninsured drivers... they're not exactly falling over themselves to help the gardai with an insurance database like.

It's obviously not as big a threat to society as 15 year old cars!

_Brian

I was in similar position a few years ago.
I rang the station and explained the liscence was out of date and they gave me an additional 10 days.

No big deal.

Marcusm

_Brian wrote: »

I was in similar position a few years ago.
I rang the station and explained the liscence was out of date and they gave me an additional 10 days.

No big deal.

If you had an expired license then the exercise of Garda discretion seems entirely sensible. Here we are speaking of someone with an expired learber's permit driving alone. Not anything like the same thing.

whomitconcerns

Esel wrote: »

We are talking about a driver with an expired licence/permit. That is different from 'unlicensed' afaik.

A licence is not a permit.

They never had a licence.