Tenant Didn't Report Leak Resulting in Major Damage

April 73

Only a few days ago I commented on another thread that there are plenty of decent tenants out there. Oh the irony!

My tenant of six months rang last night to say she had noticed a strange bump in the solid wood floor in the hallway of the apartment. She had thought "it might be due to the warm weather" but it was getting worse and she thought she should tell me as we had been very clear in telling her to tell us quickly if there were any problems. She pretty much said she has noticed it over the last few weeks.

From her description I immediately suspected water damage but she kept repeating "to be honest I can't see any water, I haven't noticed any water". I asked for photos of the floor & for photos around the radiator pipes & the door to the boiler cupboard. It was immediately obvious that there has been a substantial amount of damage - the solid wood floor has buckled up, and the carpet into the bedrooms has pulled away from the carpet runners exposing a gap between the runner & wood floor where the floor has shifted.

I spoke to the tenant again & asked again that she check the radiator, the boiler and the ceiling for leaks. "No, no leaks to be seen". I asked if there had been an accident where water had spilled (mop bucket etc)? If there had I said I would prefer to know so I knew if I was dealing with a one off accident or an ongoing leak.

An hour later she sent me a message & a video showing a substantial leak coming from the boiler.

I got a boiler repair company out today at a time convenient for the tenant. He advised me that this leak has been going on for weeks as the floor has buckled & the carpets are damp. The tenant now denies noticing anything until last night when she rang me "straight away".

The repair man turned off the mains inlet to the boiler and I agreed to ring the company tomorrow to find out if a repair is likely to suffice (approx €600 was mentioned) or whether a new combi boiler is required.

I was then berated over the phone by the tenant that because the boiler was out of action she was without hot water. Which I acknowledged. I was told she is paying a lot of money to rent the apartment & it wasn't good enough to have no hot water. This despite getting the repairman out within less than 24 hours and agreeing to decide on a repair or replacement tomorrow when I got a quote.

I'm going to look at whether the carpets & floor come under insurance or not. I guess my question is where do I stand with the tenant in this who didn't report this to me when she first noticed a problem. Is that tough luck on me - I have an irresponsible tenant?
Also how long is a reasonable length of time to allow me to fix this? She is basically saying it should be repaired tomorrow & then I get to decide on a new boiler after this.

Thanks for reading.

MarkAnthony

Hot water with no alternative such as an electric shower would be 72 hours maximum.

As for the tenant not reporting it, they've stated they didn't notice it - so there's nothing you can do there. Unfortunately being thick isn't a crime.

April 73

It's a shame you can't ask tenants to complete an IQ test to see if they are likely to notice buckling floors or wet carpets!

kronnn

Honestly it sounds like she did report it as soon as she noticed something amiss, you can't really expect anything more than that.

whatnext

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Hot water with no alternative such as an electric shower would be 72 hours maximum.

As for the tenant not reporting it, they've stated they didn't notice it - so there's nothing you can do there. Unfortunately being thick isn't a crime.

Would it be fair to say that if the hard wood floor is buckled and carpet is wet that this is ignoring the issue as opposed to not noticing it, despite what they claim?

Tenants have obligations under a lease, being ignorant of them would not be a defense in my opinion.

Sleeper12

Tenant said they only noticed yesterday.
I hear other landlords saying they (Tennants) see the building the way it is. If they feel it's rundown they don't have to take it.
Things run the other way too. You approved the tenants & I assumed you believed them to be honest. I don't think it is fair to question their honesty now
Tennant said they told you as soon as they noticed. I think we have to believe them.
Getting away from the usual argument I have to say unless the claim runs into the thousands I suggest you don't go through the insurance. You will find it will cost you more to do it this way in the long run.

Sleeper12

whatnext wrote:

Would it be fair to say that if the hard wood floor is buckled and carpet is wet that this is ignoring the issue as opposed to not noticing it, despite what they claim?

No. I've seen this happen in private homes where it's not noticed.

Milly33

In fairness OP she did report it to you when she noticed.. Doesnt sound like she done anything wrong..Crap suituation but it happens..

April 73

She started off saying she has noticed it over the last couple of weeks. When she realised the implications last night she started saying she'd noticed it yesterday.
The photos show major rises in the floor - you couldn't not notice it.

It's the age old problem between tenants & landlords - I would have expected a phone immediately about it & she waited until the damage was far too obvious to ignore. She's annoyed that she has no hot water for 24 hours & I'm annoyed that she ignored the problem for so long that I am now looking at replacing carpets & wood floors.

April 73

whatnext wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that if the hard wood floor is buckled and carpet is wet that this is ignoring the issue as opposed to not noticing it, despite what they claim?

Tenants have obligations under a lease, being ignorant of them would not be a defense in my opinion.

This is what I think. It's too obvious not to have realised.

Stheno

Is the work to fix it going to cost more than their deposit?

Of course she noticed it, a dog would notice a leak that bad. Damp carpets, buckling floor etc. She is also back tracking which is a real tell tale. I've noticed tiny leaks in the past that did no damage. I'd tell her she just has to wait till its fixed and if she had reported it sooner she could have had it solved easier. A person can easily survive without hot water for a few days/a week etc in this weather and if there is an electric shower then she should have no problem at all. I haven't tuned on heat in months in the house as we have an electric shower and don't use hot water for anything else.

SB_Part2

Will she have to move out while the floor is being replaced?

jimmycrackcorm

April 73 wrote:

She started off saying she has noticed it over the last couple of weeks. When she realised the implications last night she started saying she'd noticed it yesterday. The photos show major rises in the floor - you couldn't not notice it.

That doesn't mean the tenant suspected a leak. A badly fitted wooden floor might warp with heat.

whatnext

Sleeper12 wrote: »

No. I've seen this happen in private homes where it's not noticed.

To be fair it depends on where the issue is, but if the buckled wooden floor in the middle of the hall way floor for example I'm not buying it. Also if the wet / damp carpet is in an area with traffic ie not behind the sofa for example I cry head in sand as opposed to not noticing. These things very rarely happen over night unless it's a flood or something like that, and if the service engineer says it's been a progressive deterioration I'd tend to believe them.
Even from a damp perspective you will know how long this issue has been around the minute you step foot in the property with one intake of breath.

Sleeper12

Malakai Beautiful Zygote wrote:

Of course she noticed it, a dog would notice a leak that bad. Damp carpets, buckling floor etc. She is also back tracking which is a real tell tale. I've noticed tiny leaks in the past that did no damage. I'd tell her she just has to wait till its fixed and if she had reported it sooner she could have had it solved easier. A person can easily survive without hot water for a few days/a week etc in this weather and if there is an electric shower then she should have no problem at all. I haven't tuned on heat in months in the house as we have an electric shower and don't use hot water for anything else.

A tenant paying rent is entitled to hot water. A week is not acceptable.
Just because you haven't had heating on for months doesn't mean others don't. Some foreign people feel our 12 to 14 degree nights downright cold. If someone pays rent they are entitled to make their own decisions about whether they want heat on or hot water. Now if Op wants to reduce rent or freeze rent till thing's are brought up to minimum living standards thats a different matter assuming tenant finds this agreeable

Baby01032012

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A tenant paying rent is entitled to hot water. A week is not acceptable.
Just because you haven't had heating on for months doesn't mean others don't. Some foreign people feel our 12 to 14 degree nights downright cold. If someone pays rent they are entitled to make their own decisions about whether they want heat on or hot water. Now if Op wants to reduce rent or freeze rent till thing's are brought up to minimum living standards thats a different matter assuming tenant finds this agreeable

I don't think anyone mentioned a week. OP mentioned 24 hours which is acting immediately. The tenant has no recourse where the landlord has acted immediately as the OP has.

As for the tenant not noticing. Possibly they did, however what's done is done. A tenant will always be less interested in the property than the owner. There is nothing the owner can do re delay in notification. It is not something that can or should be withheld from deposit.

Sleeper12

Malakai Beautiful Zygote wrote:

Of course she noticed it, a dog would notice a leak that bad. Damp carpets, buckling floor etc. She is also back tracking which is a real tell tale. I've noticed tiny leaks in the past that did no damage. I'd tell her she just has to wait till its fixed and if she had reported it sooner she could have had it solved easier. A person can easily survive without hot water for a few days/a week etc in this weather and if there is an electric shower then she should have no problem at all. I haven't tuned on heat in months in the house as we have an electric shower and don't use hot water for anything else.

A week is mentioned here. A week is far too long without hot water. They shouldn't pay full rent in this situation

Marcusm

To be fair, I have seen people who are equally crap at seeing what results from a water leak.

April 73

SB_Part2 wrote: »

Will she have to move out while the floor is being replaced?

I wouldn't think so.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

A week with no hot water is way too long. Anyways, is the tenant generally pretty OK op? Some tenants don't bother reporting small issues to landlords particularly when it's coming up to rent review time. She may have been ignoring any ongoing damage for this reason.

April 73

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

That doesn't mean the tenant suspected a leak. A badly fitted wooden floor might warp with heat.

In this case it wasn't a badly fitted wooden floor.

I don't think the ambient temperatures recently in Ireland could cause any floor to warp.

April 73

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

A week with no hot water is way too long. Anyways, is the tenant generally pretty OK op? Some tenants don't bother reporting small issues to landlords particularly when it's coming up to rent review time. She may have been ignoring any ongoing damage for this reason.

She's only been there for six months so there was no cause to fear a rent increase.

I'm going to have to chalk it up to a clueless tenant, get the boiler fixed or replaced as soon as I can, and see what needs to be done with the floor & the carpets.
In the event that she is without hot water for any more than a day or two then I would give a rent reduction.
I look after my property in terms of repairs & maintenance and I would count myself as a reasonable landlord.

I'm actually gutted that a nice property with a good solid wood floor & new carpets only a year old has suffered this damage. To find myself at the end of a very confrontational conversation when I acted immediately as soon as I was informed of the problem was a little hard to take today.

athtrasna

Your landlord insurance should help take some of the financial pain. Also if you have any texts/emails where you asked about leaks and she said there were none, that may help the RTB come down on your side in the event that you wanted to seek some costs back.

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A week is mentioned here. A week is far too long without hot water. They shouldn't pay full rent in this situation

But it may take that long to get something fixed, get parts, get a new boiler fitted etc. IT will take longer to fix the damage caused too, will the tenant expect all that work to happen in 24 hours too?

I'm not suggesting the op drag their heels etc, I'm saying no matter how much the tenant complains or how fast the op acts it can take time to fix things. A rad leaked badly in my house and for the plumber to have time to call, the correct rad to be sourced and the plumber have time to fit it it took over a week (we controlled the situation ourselves and no damage was done btw).

ZENER

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A week is mentioned here. A week is far too long without hot water. They shouldn't pay full rent in this situation

If there is to be a reduction then it should be decided between both parties. If the tenant decided to withhold a portion of the rent without agreement then a strongly worded letter is needed from the LL.

Ken

dixiefly

I assume that you do not live nearby, if it was me I would be getting around there asap or getting someone that lives locally that I trust to get around there and fully appraise the situation.

April 73

dixiefly wrote: »

I assume that you do not live nearby, if it was me I would be getting around there asap or getting someone that lives locally that I trust to get around there and fully appraise the situation.

Unfortunately I live a 150km away normally & I'm actually out of the country until tomorrow night. I've arranged to go up at the weekend to see it.

I got a video last night which shows the water dripping at a constant rate. Even through the phone you can hear the dripping so I'm at a loss as to how she could have missed it for weeks. You walk past that the boiler every time you walk in & out of the apartment & she told me last night that she doesn't use the timer on the boiler but manually turns the heating on when she wants it.

Anyway, I need to get over it & chalk it down to the joys of being a landlord.

Spurion

When was the boiler last serviced? As the landlord, it's your responsibility to ensure that the boiler receives a regular service. Even if the issue had been reported to you sooner, that doesn't necessarily mean the cost of repair would be lower. I'd say you should stop trying to find a way to blame this on your tenant and accept that random expenses like this are part and parcel of being a landlord.

April 73

The boiler has been regularly serviced. I do take my responsibilities as a landlord seriously.
I'm not trying to blame the leak on the tenant but I do think she should have told me sooner. The longer a leak goes on the more damage it does, so there would have been less damage if she had told me straight away that she noticed something wrong with the floor (which was several weeks ago).

cerastes

SB_Part2 wrote: »

Will she have to move out while the floor is being replaced?

Best to have a condition in the lease that if the property becomes uninhabitable due to damage that the lease is null and void. These repairs could take a while or not, depends on whats seen when someone starts pulling stuff up to see what the damage is.

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

A week with no hot water is way too long. Anyways, is the tenant generally pretty OK op? Some tenants don't bother reporting small issues to landlords particularly when it's coming up to rent review time. She may have been ignoring any ongoing damage for this reason.

Ignorance is not an excuse really, advantage of having an elctric shower I suppose.

April 73 wrote: »

She's only been there for six months so there was no cause to fear a rent increase.

I'm going to have to chalk it up to a clueless tenant, get the boiler fixed or replaced as soon as I can, and see what needs to be done with the floor & the carpets.
In the water for any more than a day or two then I would give a rent reduction in the event that she is without hot water.
I look after my property in terms of repairs & maintenance and I would count myself as a reasonable landlord.

I'm actually gutted that a nice property with a good solid wood floor & new carpets only a year old has suffered this damage. To find myself at the end of a very confrontational conversation when I acted immediately as soon as I was informed of the problem was a little hard to take today.

I wouldnt even consider it or entertain it, there is no obligation on you to, especially considering their negligent thick views.
A big plus for recording conversations automatically, add that to the lease also.

ZENER wrote: »

If there is to be a reduction then it should be decided between both parties. If the tenant decided to withhold a portion of the rent without agreement then a strongly worded letter is needed from the LL.
Ken

Thats not allowed, in fact is illegal, Id hope the tenant did that, then start the process of a strongly worded letter to make good the full amount in the appropriate steps, 24hours, 14 days etc

The tenant must be thick to not notice this, regular inspections are a good idea to cover the plethora of ignorance/lack of concern a tenant can display. That said, they may be utterly clueless what to look for, paying a lot for an item or component is a good indicator. Tenants not paying out for these items usually means a complete lack of concern.