Tenant Didn't Report Leak Resulting in Major Damage

The_Conductor

Spurion wrote: »

When was the boiler last serviced? As the landlord, it's your responsibility to ensure that the boiler receives a regular service. Even if the issue had been reported to you sooner, that doesn't necessarily mean the cost of repair would be lower. I'd say you should stop trying to find a way to blame this on your tenant and accept that random expenses like this are part and parcel of being a landlord.

This isn't a random expense though- replacing a wooden floor could potentially cost thousands- and thats ignoring the carpet and any other damage that occurred. It may not be covered under the landlord's contents cover- that is up to an assessor to determine. Whether or not the boiler has been recently serviced- very often doesn't enter the equation in cases like this- the manner in which the timer wasn't used- and the boiler could have been on for extended periods of time- is the more probable cause.

Boilers are designed to circulate water if/when the temperature exceeds a certain level (typically 80 degrees)- this is to prevent a buildup of pressure. If, however, they still aren't turned off- or are bypassed and left on- even with safety mechanisms in play- pressure can build up- which can cause leaks at joints. Obviously- given where the leak is- there was an excessive buildup of pressure at this particular point.

April- sorry- I have no idea what your floor is going to cost- at least its at this time of the year when you have no problem getting hold of a heating specialist, a plumber- and someone to lay a new floor and carpets. In 6 months time- trying to get hold of a similar cohort of workmen could take a protracted period of time.

Before you do anything at all- consult your insurer though- they may want to view the damage themselves- before signing off on repair work.

April 73

I'm waiting on a call back from the insurer. Bit nervous as there was talk during my first call yesterday of the leak having to be covered under the block policy. I don't think this is the case myself as it was the boiler, but maybe I should also contact the management company agent & ask the question.

The more I think about it - taking up the floor, replacing carpets, the more of a nightmare it becomes, just from a practical point of view, never mind financially. A random expense as quoted earlier, is more like replacing a washing machine to me, not work like this.

cerastes

April 73 wrote: »

I'm waiting on a call back from the insurer. Bit nervous as there was talk during my first call yesterday of the leak having to be covered under the block policy. I don't think this is the case myself as it was the boiler, but maybe I should also contact the management company agent & ask the question.

The more I think about it - taking up the floor, replacing carpets, the more of a nightmare it becomes, just from a practical point of view, never mind financially. A random expense as quoted earlier, is more like replacing a washing machine to me, not work like this.

Maybe a loss adjuster could deal with the insurer on your behalf? they would be a professional at this and know the ins and outs. Be careful of what you say.

Does the boiler really need to be replaced or just a leak repaired/part replaced. Maybe it just hasnt failed outright and that this is just a leak in that item?to at least save the cost of replacing the boiler too.

April 73

cerastes wrote: »

Maybe a loss adjuster could deal with the insurer on your behalf? they would be a professional at this and know the ins and outs. Be careful of what you say.

Does the boiler really need to be replaced or just a leak repaired/part replaced. Maybe it just hasnt failed outright and that this is just a leak in that item?to at least save the cost of replacing the boiler too.

The loss adjuster might be a good idea, thanks.

Ideally I would like to take a breath & find out if a repair will suffice before committing to the expense & delay of replacing the boiler. Trying to get a second opinion today. And manage the tenant's expectations!

In your previous comment you mentioned if work means s tenant has to move out then the lease is null & void. Is this covered under the RTA?

cerastes

April 73 wrote: »

The loss adjuster might be a good idea, thanks.

Ideally I would like to take a breath & find out if a repair will suffice before committing to the expense & delay of replacing the boiler. Trying to get a second opinion today. And manage the tenant's expectations!

In your previous comment you mentioned if work means s tenant has to move out then the lease is null & void. Is this covered under the RTA?

I dont think so, I meant if you had it included as a term of your agreement, the Tenancies Act seems to allow for this, but only if its included in your lease.
Review your lease and review the Act, but I think it allows for major work in that, if so substantial work was required the lease would be considered terminated, maybe in the situation where a property burned down, but it could be open to interpretation that if so much work is required that the property isnt habitable, taking up the floor might constitute this as it would be impractical for anyone to live there while work progressed, it would also seem to limit any repsonsibility of the landlord to house the tenant elsewhere while work was going on, as the tenancy would be terminated under such grounds.

April 73

cerastes wrote: »

I dont think so, I meant if you had it included as a term of your agreement, the Tenancies Act seems to allow for this, but only if its included in your lease.
Review your lease and review the Act, but I think it allows for major work in that, if so substantial work was required the lease would be considered terminated, maybe in the situation where a property burned down, but it could be open to interpretation that if so much work is required that the property isnt habitable, taking up the floor might constitute this as it would be impractical for anyone to live there while work progressed, it would also seem to limit any repsonsibility of the landlord to house the tenant elsewhere while work was going on, as the tenancy would be terminated under such grounds.

Thanks for this. I'm hoping it won't go as far as this. I'll know better when I see the damage myself at the weekend.

We took up our own wooden floor in two rooms & the hall last year & it was no joke. I couldn't expect a tenant to live through it.

Michael D Not Higgins

cerastes wrote: »

Best to have a condition in the lease that if the property becomes uninhabitable due to damage that the lease is null and void. These repairs could take a while or not, depends on whats seen when someone starts pulling stuff up to see what the damage is.

That clause is unenforceable. In the RTA, there is a condition of termination for Part 4 tenancies for major works or refurbishment work that require a vacated property. This comes with the proviso that the original tenant must be offered the property again when the refurbishment is completed if it is due to be relet.

SB_Part2

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

That clause is unenforceable. In the RTA, there is a condition of termination for Part 4 tenancies for major works or refurbishment work that require a vacated property. This comes with the proviso that the original tenant must be offered the property again when the refurbishment is completed if it is due to be relet.

Would it be up to the landlord to pay for alternative accommodation while the refurbishment is happening for the tenant?

_Brian

I'm a landlord myself so know where your coming from.

However, you've no evidence that the tenant had seen the leak. Some people notice everything and some notice nothing. I know my wife wouldn't notice anything unless she had to surf down the hallway.

Get the repair don as swiftly as possible. The damage should be covered in insurance, I know it was when we had a similar leak a few years ago.

Michael D Not Higgins

SB_Part2 wrote: »

Would it be up to the landlord to pay for alternative accommodation while the refurbishment is happening for the tenant?

There is nothing in the RTA 2004 that would require that.

spaceHopper

It is only hassle nobody died and it's probably covers by insurance or a tax wright off.
Leaks often start out very small and then get worse it could easily have been dripping very slowly an not been noticed.
There is nothing in it for the tenant to let it slide and ignore it, sooner or later it will have to be fixed, its not as if she broke it.
Surely there is an electric immersion heater too, would you not just switch that on for a while to get hot water.

foggy_lad

I assume it is a Gas boiler? these have copper condensors which are notorious for leaks as the boiler gets older, most boilers last about 8 years before needing replacement.

Is the floor laminate or the full proper thicker wooden floor? the more expensive wooden floor would hide the leak for a number of days and then when it soaks up beyond its saturation point it will start to buckle up. It may be possible to dry it out if the damage is not too extensive. This is really like a leak behind the sink from the back of a washing machine which will often not be seen until half the floor covering is saturated in water, there is no way a tenant could be held responsible for not noticing a drip from a pipe that is not obvious to the eye.

SarahMollie

Hi OP,

Firstly, sorry to hear about your issues, its really unfortunate, but as other have said, I don't think you can prove that the tenant knew and wasnt simply oblivious. So you probably need to just chalk this one up to experience.

Can I ask, is this your only rental property/are you an accidental LL? You come accross as taking this slightly personally and I wonder if you're a bit emotionally attached to the property.

Given that its rented now, be pragmatic about the remediation.

Repair the boiler if possible. However maybe do some research on the lifespan of the make and model you have and if its already pushing its luck, maybe you're better to replace it now.

Also I wouldnt pay for proper wooden floors in a rented property. There are some really nice looking laminate options available these days and they have the added benefit of being extremely hard wearing and maintenance free.

Regarding the carpet, it might be worth sticking in a dehumidifier for a while to see if that would help. An aunt of mine had a leak under her house (only discovered by Irish Water) and while she had to get some pretty major work done, the two dehumidifiers from Argos that she bought really helped get the place dried out a lot quicker.

Also, do you have an accountant? If not, get a good one. they can help you write off as much as possible of the coming years, which might make a new boiler more attractive.

Gatling

We actually had a very similar issue with our apartment a few months ago .
We had a neighbour knock on the door and ask if we left a tap over flowing (2 kids) as he noticed some water drops on his ceiling below us ,
Brought him in and checked the kitchen and bathrooms and found nothing, about a 2 months later I had washed the floor with a damp cloth after I noticed some black gunk appearing along the joints of the laminated floor in the sitting room ,didn't really think anything of it another week later I thought one of the kids spilled a drink as there was a patch of liquid in the centre of the room again wiped it up and asked the kids to be careful,
A few hours later a patch of liquid appeared in the same spot which I cleaned again and as I walked out of the room I seen more liquid appear at a door way ,
Got towels down and found more patches of water called our landlady and she took a week to come up with a plummer who took a while to find a small leak from a pipe at the back of the boiler which happens to back onto the kitchen and sitting room ,the water had travelled along a wall till it found a tiny gap that led under the laminated floor ,
She had the floor pulled and found the water had made its way to near the 4 corners of the room .
Plummer reckons the pipe behind the boiler was slowly leaking over a long time.

Landlady had the pipe replaced and the flooring as well,
No blame was attributed to us and several years later were still in the same apartment.

Somethings can and do go unnoticed and hardly the blame of the tenant ,

Tar.Aldarion

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A tenant paying rent is entitled to hot water. A week is not acceptable.
Just because you haven't had heating on for months doesn't mean others don't. Some foreign people feel our 12 to 14 degree nights downright cold. If someone pays rent they are entitled to make their own decisions about whether they want heat on or hot water. Now if Op wants to reduce rent or freeze rent till thing's are brought up to minimum living standards thats a different matter assuming tenant finds this agreeable

Not really much we could do about this when it happened to us. We didn't have hot water for over a month recently, as we needed a boiler, asked about rent but was just ignored, and it's not like this kinda stuff has only happened with this one estate agent. Last one I had would do similar stuff, can't really do anything about it but move.

beauf

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Hot water with no alternative such as an electric shower would be 72 hours maximum....

Sleeper12 wrote: »

A tenant paying rent is entitled to hot water. A week is not acceptable....

Where are you getting these time periods from?

April 73

SarahMollie wrote: »

Hi OP,

Firstly, sorry to hear about your issues, its really unfortunate, but as other have said, I don't think you can prove that the tenant knew and wasnt simply oblivious. So you probably need to just chalk this one up to experience.

Can I ask, is this your only rental property/are you an accidental LL? You come accross as taking this slightly personally and I wonder if you're a bit emotionally attached to the property.

Given that its rented now, be pragmatic about the remediation.

Repair the boiler if possible. However maybe do some research on the lifespan of the make and model you have and if its already pushing its luck, maybe you're better to replace it now.

Also I wouldnt pay for proper wooden floors in a rented property. There are some really nice looking laminate options available these days and they have the added benefit of being extremely hard wearing and maintenance free.

Regarding the carpet, it might be worth sticking in a dehumidifier for a while to see if that would help. An aunt of mine had a leak under her house (only discovered by Irish Water) and while she had to get some pretty major work done, the two dehumidifiers from Argos that she bought really helped get the place dried out a lot quicker.

Also, do you have an accountant? If not, get a good one. they can help you write off as much as possible of the coming years, which might make a new boiler more attractive.

I'm not an accidental LL but it is fair to say I can take it a bit personally at times. I also felt I had acted as soon as I was alerted & genuinely if you saw the photos you'd say the tenant was blind not to have reported it earlier. The tenant seemed to want to have it all sorted within 24 hours & I felt that was an unreasonable expectation!

The floors were down when I bought the property - I wouldn't choose to put a solid floor in a rental property. However this is in a "good" apartment block so in keeping with the property.

I do have an accountant & realise the tax write offs involved.

I've contacted the insurance company as well. Apparently leaks do come under the block insurance.

The dehumidifier is worth considering, thanks.

April 73

spaceHopper wrote: »

It is only hassle nobody died and it's probably covers by insurance or a tax wright off.
Leaks often start out very small and then get worse it could easily have been dripping very slowly an not been noticed.
There is nothing in it for the tenant to let it slide and ignore it, sooner or later it will have to be fixed, its not as if she broke it.
Surely there is an electric immersion heater too, would you not just switch that on for a while to get hot water.

No unfortunately it's a gas combi boiler so there is no immersion. The boiler heats water instantly which is great ordinarily but not in this situation.

April 73

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

There is nothing in the RTA 2004 that would require that.

That's useful to know. Thanks.

April 73

Just to be clear - because I know some people read the just initial post & not the following ones.
I'm not blaming the tenant for the leak.
She did however say she noticed movement in the floor several weeks ago & I do think she should have alerted me then.

SarahMollie

April 73 wrote: »

I'm not an accidental LL but it is fair to say I can take it a bit personally at times. I also felt I had acted as soon as I was alerted & genuinely if you saw the photos you'd say the tenant was blind not to have reported it earlier. The tenant seemed to want to have it all sorted within 24 hours & I felt that was an unreasonable expectation!

The floors were down when I bought the property - I wouldn't choose to put a solid floor in a rental property. However this is in a "good" apartment block so in keeping with the property.

I do have an accountant & realise the tax write offs involved.

I've contacted the insurance company as well. Apparently leaks do come under the block insurance.

The dehumidifier is worth considering, thanks.

I totally agree, you'd think a bit of common sense on the part of your tenant would be in order. When I was last renting, our pump gave out and without it we had only a dribble of water from the hot tap. Our LL took about 2 days to sort it as a part was needed, but we could tell from the outset that he was trying his best and that things were moving so we were happy to hang in there and shower at the gym for those few days.

Do you have a good OMC and Managment agent? I'm now a director on mine and we get asked to approve claims made against the block insurance. Depending on their claims history/excess/ cost of the repair they may chose to just pay out of the funds available.

It really goes to show that there are all sorts out there. A friend of mine is renting a house in an extremely nice development and her washing machine has been leaking for about 2 months and warping the floor all around it. She takes pictures weekly of the progression of the damage and sends to her LL but he doesnt seem interested. It was subtle enough at first but starting to get a bit unsightly at this point so not sure where thats going to end.

April 73

SarahMollie wrote: »

I totally agree, you'd think a bit of common sense on the part of your tenant would be in order. When I was last renting, our pump gave out and without it we had only a dribble of water from the hot tap. Our LL took about 2 days to sort it as a part was needed, but we could tell from the outset that he was trying his best and that things were moving so we were happy to hang in there and shower at the gym for those few days.

Do you have a good OMC and Managment agent? I'm now a director on mine and we get asked to approve claims made against the block insurance. Depending on their claims history/excess/ cost of the repair they may chose to just pay out of the funds available.

It really goes to show that there are all sorts out there. A friend of mine is renting a house in an extremely nice development and her washing machine has been leaking for about 2 months and warping the floor all around it. She takes pictures weekly of the progression of the damage and sends to her LL but he doesnt seem interested. It was subtle enough at first but starting to get a bit unsightly at this point so not sure where thats going to end.

That seems like complete stupidity on the part of the landlord. It'll end up in a far bigger & more costly job.

I rang the management agent about the leak & in fairness he was good. I've spoken to the insurance broker & they have arranged to send an assessor around to estimate the damage.

daveharnett

beauf wrote: »

Where are you getting these time periods from?

Here's a set of suggested timeframes for different types of repairs:
http://www.threshold.ie/advice/dealing-with-problems-during-your-tenancy/standards-and-repairs/

beauf

There are no timeframes.

You cant know how long it will take to get a tradesman out. Or how long it will take them to complete repairs.

Most people will have experience of waiting in vain for tradesmen who never turn up on time or at all.

April 73

daveharnett wrote: »

Here's a set of suggested timeframes for different types of repairs:
http://www.threshold.ie/advice/dealing-with-problems-during-your-tenancy/standards-and-repairs/

That's useful as an indication as to what's uregent & routine & suggested timelines (obviously can't be set in stone)

Quick update - looks like it's not just the hall floor but also the living room floor that will need to be replaced. The hall boards are buckled up at angle of 70 degrees so there is no way the tenant noticed it the night she rang me. Solid floors don't buckle up to that degree overnight. The insurance assessor is out today & I only hope that a claim will be allowed or we are looking at a potential bill of up to €8,000, if we are to replace the floor with the same standard of flooring.

I count the boiler as a routine expense as part of being a landlord so I'm not even counting the cost of that replacement.

The_Conductor

April 73 wrote: »

I count the boiler as a routine expense as part of being a landlord so I'm not even counting the cost of that replacement.

I just replaced one- similar type setup- separate streams for hot water and heating- I got 5 inspections and quotes- and went with the second cheapest @ 2,800....... SEI grant does not apply unless you're also replacing the controls- which was not necessary in my case.

TheDoc

_Brian wrote: »

I'm a landlord myself so know where your coming from.

However, you've no evidence that the tenant had seen the leak. Some people notice everything and some notice nothing. I know my wife wouldn't notice anything unless she had to surf down the hallway.

Get the repair don as swiftly as possible. The damage should be covered in insurance, I know it was when we had a similar leak a few years ago.

I'd a smaller issue with a leak a short while before I eventually moved out of my last property.

Girlfriend went up for a bath, filled it up and when she got in there was a rush of water through our smoke alarm downstairs and through framing of doors.

Absolutely calamity, hallway was a massive puddle.

Landlord was top notch and had a plumber out the next day. Problem was a pipe underneath the drainhole in the bath had no support, so overtime as weight was going onto it, it was bending, bending until it eventually snapped.

Plumber said it was a typical Celtic Tiger build issue. But there was no way I would have spotted it. And while it was something that got worse with time, there was no reasonable way for me to tell it was happening until it eventually broke. Thankfully it just required a change of pipe, which the plumber brought with him.

Obviously yours sounds more severe. I'd feel for you that the tenant shouldn't be getting overly aggravated about this. But at the same time your post here opened with looking to see what discourse you might have on the tenant for negligence. I guess maybe the tenant is annoyed if you have been angling this to her thats its maybe her fault or something?

Otherwise tenant might just be a dick. No real reason to be going mental at you over it. **** happens, and your trying your best to get it sorted.

TheDoc

beauf wrote: »

There are no timeframes.

You cant know how long it will take to get a tradesman out. Or how long it will take them to complete repairs.

Most people will have experience of waiting in vain for tradesmen who never turn up on time or at all.

I'm in my current property just over a month, and we are into our second week with no gas.

Gas Networks ireland disconnected us, due to a series of calamities between suppliers. Didn't even tell my landlord what was happening as I was dealing with it. He knocked around(friend of O/H family so he caught word) absolutely mortified asking what he could do or help, but I had things moving.

**** happens. I think in this case the LL sounds like he is doing his best, and the tenant should be appreciative of that, and the situation at hand, and not doling out **** to the LL.

padd b1975

beauf wrote: »

Where are you getting these time periods from?

Most people would be stinking after going 72 hours without a wash.

The_Conductor

padd b1975 wrote: »

Most people would be stinking after going 72 hours without a wash.

Use cold water- or be inventive and use the kettle to heat a sink of water etc.
Its a temporary inconvenience.