Beef Farm Crossroads

lostgoat

Hi everyone,

I have been roaming the Farming and Forestry sections for a long time and have decided to ask you for your ideas, experiences and advice.

I am in my mid 20s (young qualified farmer) returning home to farm, a suckler to finishing (steers and heifers) system. We have about 40 cows and two good bulls. We also buy in 12-15 heifer weanlings and bring them through to finishing. Also grow spring barley for feed and sell some to the merchant. Not a lot.

We would have good stock (without boasting) we have emphasised on breeding good replacements in the last number of years, although some of our best cows are the oldest "rakes".

I am wanting to move things along in the next number of years. But with a full time job also....my mind is torn between two decisions.

Part of me wants to invest in buying in some top quality replacement incalf heifers and improve the (already good) cows we have and therefore the calves and what we would be finishing.
As I am working off farm, labour is an issue, and I can't see myself having time to do the tillage side at the same time, so possibly getting rid of the tillage and increasing cow numbers to 60 maybe.

The other thing I have been wondering is labour needed with the calving, etc.
I have been wondering if we sold the cows (in year one) we would have money to buy in weanlings to replace these cows (stock number wise) plus the calves we would already have on the ground from the cows. My thoughts are that, you would keep almost two weanlings for every one cow. And with that calculation, we could carry 120 weanlings (+) per year. Having that many cattle to sell to the factory every year would put us in a strong position. And with that you wouldn't have to take out a stocking loan... Unless you did for tax purposes....

I hope that makes sense... it does in my head!!

Any wise words or comments??
Cheers lads.

lostgoat

TheClubMan

+1

stantheman1979

Hi,
I would think very carefully about selling you're cows. Yr 1 would be ok sell 40 cows buy 80 weanings (roughly the same price) plus the 40 weanlings u already have would leave you 120 to sell. Yr 2 is a different story. Im not so certain the profits from the previous yr allow u to buy 120 weanlings in yr 2??? The returns from weanling to finishing aren't great or we would all be at it!!
Also presumably they will all spend at least one winter on the farm. So have u sheds for 120 cattle if not you'll need to upgrade or build new sheds, and will u be able to make enough silage if you're so heavily stocked. Also if you're working full time and wondering about the labour issue calving 60 cows will u be able to find the time to feed 120 cattle all winter!!!
You need to think if u wanna stay working or farm because it would be hard to expand no's like you're talking about and hold down a full time job. What do u work at if u don't mind me asking

lostgoat

Hi Stan,

Yeah, I absolutely agree that selling the cows is a big move.. And the worst part is that, despite the cost involved in getting back into them if you did make the decision is that you have to wait two years before you have something to sell again....

I think you would definitely make your money back on the weanlings you would buy, plus, I think you should clear 200 a head profit on them. Maybe I have blinkers on and can't see the wood for the trees. But I have it in my head that even if you only make 200/head for 120 cattle, it would be better than however much you make per head for 60. With the sucklers, its not as simple as saying you made 1500 on a beast for example.. Even once you take the meal and silage costs out of the 1500 for THAT animal, you have to factor in the cost of keeping the mother also for he two years of the animal. (although I know you can divide this by two as she should hopefully have a follower). From a resources point of view, the weanling is more efficient?

Am I completely wrong in this?

To be fair, we would have the housing for them. But possibly could put up an additional slatted shed. The farm is a serious farm to grow grass. It is probably a grass farm more than a tillage farm (hence another factor in not growing barley anymore - however that means I would have to buy in barley and straw....)

You have a point with the feeding aspect, however, you wouldn't spend a long time with a diet feeder in the mornings.

I want to stay farming, its the dream to farm full time.. However I don't see it as viable. Especially at this scale. I'm in research at the minute, but my contract is coming to an end. So I am on the lookout.

Are you in sucklers or what is your background?

Cheers,
lostgoat

charolais0153

How much land do u actually have incl. tillage. What kind of bulls do ye have. When do you turn stock out. When do u slaughter your cattle. Personally if your cows are as good as you think I would stick with them. You have much more control of the cost of getting an animal to finish rather than being subject ct to dear weanlings etc. Buying 120 weanlings would be difficult as well. Pneumonia would be a big threat to the weanlings after the stress of weaning compounded by having 120.

stantheman1979

Yeah we've about 130 sucklers. We're in the south east region. There are a lot of things to consider here. The cost of the weanling would have to be spot on. Also like Charolais said it mightn't be that easy to source 120 healthy cattle from all over the place. Would u not be worried about bringing in all sort of diseases that could cripple u financially. Also would a cow eat the same amount of grass as 2 weanlings! You'd be very surprised how much grass young cattle will eat. If you're land is good at growing grass I think u could increase the cow nos to 70 with good management they would leave a nice profit. Or maybe leave the 40 cows and buy 50 weanlings and see how u get on with them before going head first into it.

Muckit

Why make any mad moves? Baby steps. Find your feet first. You may know your stuff when you are un your wellies, but you'll have to get your head around paperwork and money matters also....cash flow.

Make the transition then if/when you deem it necessary.

Just my twopence for what it's worth!

Night Nav

Been in that position a number of years ago but 1 question you must ask yourself is have you help that you can rely on if you have a sick calf or a cow calving because if you have one of these problems when you going to work which suffers the sick animal or the job ..... I run a simple yearling to beef enterprise and works very well

lostgoat

Hi lads,

Thanks for the replies..

Charolais0153,
All valid points...

Stan,
Do you finish all your stock? Yeah, I agree with the disease aspect of it, because as we are, we have a very clean herd. I definitely believe that cows would eat twice as much as a weanling. I tried to post a link to a Teagasc newsletter but couldn't. If you google "Fodder September 2012 Facing the fodder challenge" you should find it.

But even without that, we know from feeding the cattle at home. The cows go through a massive amount of silage. And straw. The weanlings take a lot of labour out of them with the slats.
Regarding sourcing the 120 cattle. If you could find a couple of lads and buy 10 - 20 from every year, you would reduce the stress and risk of disease. I honestly don't like buying from the marts myself.
You give two good suggestions there....


Hi Muckit,
Thanks for the input. It is appreciated. And good advice.


@Night Nav
Well, I do have help. Well sure the boss is running it basically on his own at this point and I hope to god he's around for as long as possible, but sure you know yourself..
Do you mind me asking what your cow numbers were before and what stock you carry now? Did you have to invest in infrastructure for the change?

lostgoat

Markcheese

I think stan the man had the right idea, drop the barley and try the weanlings for a year or two, if it works out then you're part way there...
Other thing you could do is see if you can get weanling prices and beef prices for the past ten/15 years ... and run your current system against the one you want to head to..

stantheman1979

No we sell them as weanlings!! We calve half in Sep/Oct to AI Bulls and the other half in March to limo stock bulls. I've just thought of how you could source 100 healthy well looked after weanlings from the one place lol

Night Nav

@Night Nav
Well, I do have help. Well sure the boss is running it basically on his own at this point and I hope to god he's around for as long as possible, but sure you know yourself..
Do you mind me asking what your cow numbers were before and what stock you carry now? Did you have to invest in infrastructure for the change?

Had around 40 cows with calves now 100 cattle and not stocked heavy keep fertiliser cost down invested in a meal silo for meal house was suitable for cattle

lostgoat

Hi Markcheese,
Yeah, he has a point. I can see that.


@Stan,
Do you have to feed a lot of meal to the Autumn calving cows? I would much rather buy off farm. I hate the carry on that goes on around the ring in marts. Plus I think it would be a lot easier on the weanlings plus less cattle mixing and disease issues.. Do you have any photos of your weanlings??

@Night Nav,
Sounds like a nice system.. Would you be inclined to be buying the lighter weanlings? If you aren't forcing grass? You probably aren't giving them meal at grass either?

lostgoat

stantheman1979

Nope they get no meal. The is 50 mainly older cows and they calve away outside. We maybe give them some fodder beet if the weather is bad and grass tight. We bring them in for winter onto slats with the calves locked behind them on straw. Let them in twice a day to suck. Calves get a little meal alright. Cows get good silage and fodder beet to get them in condition for AI in Dec/Jan. Its a good system calves are healthier born outside and we can use the autumn cows to clean paddocks behind the spring calvers in the summer as we dont want them gettting fat

Night Nav

@Night Nav,
Sounds like a nice system.. Would you be inclined to be buying the lighter weanlings? If you aren't forcing grass? You probably aren't giving them meal at grass either?

lostgoat[/quote]
Nice system little or no help required .....
My thoughts about weanlings is need more housing over 2 winters and 2 could have a few health issues buying at weaning such as ammonia.....like I say there my thoughts

Irish Beef

stantheman1979 wrote: »

No we sell them as weanlings!! We calve half in Sep/Oct to AI Bulls and the other half in March to limo stock bulls. I've just thought of how you could source 100 healthy well looked after weanlings from the one place lol

Hi Stan, I see you keep a nice few sucklers , would you mind telling me what breed of cow you find that best suits your system . Also would you think a different type cow would be required if keeping the weanlings and finishing them yourself. I have it in my head that SIX cows make a nice cow a good big cow with lots of milk, but I’m not long in the suckler game, A lot of people here have a preference for Limo cows out of a Friesian or out of an Angus, what would be your preference.

stantheman1979

The thing we look for is a good sized cow that milks well. We find to limos work best but like everyone we've a bit of everything. Mainly 3/4 limos, limo X FR, Limo X AA, few whitehead X Sim and and odd Saler and BB X FR.
I wouldnt say and are better than others. All our cows have to perform or they're out. Last yr the 2 saler cows we had both had sections but reared the best 2 calves.
Like i said we dont finish the calves and let them off as weanling so cant tell u how they get on after they leave but ICBF bought some off us last year for a feed trial and the ones from the more pure limo type did better

Irish Beef

stantheman1979 wrote: »

The thing we look for is a good sized cow that milks well. We find to limos work best but like everyone we've a bit of everything. Mainly 3/4 limos, limo X FR, Limo X AA, few whitehead X Sim and and odd Saler and BB X FR.
I wouldnt say and are better than others. All our cows have to perform or they're out. Last yr the 2 saler cows we had both had sections but reared the best 2 calves.
Like i said we dont finish the calves and let them off as weanling so cant tell u how they get on after they leave but ICBF bought some off us last year for a feed trial and the ones from the more pure limo type did better

Thanks stan, I have a bit of a mixed bag myself just wondering what breed stood out as best allrounder. Limos seem to be very popular across the board. Only worry id have would milk be a bit of an issue if there was too much limousin in them. probably fine when crossed with Fresian or Angus.

stantheman1979

Never had a problem with the limos milking. If anything we don't like the lim x fr as sometimes their calf can be a bit narrow in the back end.