The National Team and the League of Ireland

Paz-CCFC

This tournament has really shown how vital our domestic league is for national success. In the Euro 2016 squad, over a third (eight) came through the League of Ireland. Of the two goals that have sent us into the next round, one was scored and both were created by LoI men (scored by Hoolahan, assisted by Hoolahan and Coleman). Simply put, were it not for the league, we wouldn't be in the last 16. We wouldn't be in the competition full stop.

As a fan of the LoI and Irish football, this is by far the tournament that I've felt this most involved in. Seeing eight players that have come through the league I support, including two from my own team is a very proud thing. Full credit to the FAI, whom have played a bit of a marketing blinder in getting photo ops with lads in their LoI clubs' shirts. I've often felt that we've been ignored, even abhorred by the national association. But here they were, taking time out during a major international tournament to acknowledge and pay tribute to the League of Ireland clubs whom have helped to make this happen. You can't but swell with pride about that.

The league and the national side are intrinsically linked. They need each other. Without one, the other couldn't be a part of European/World football. And a strong league will only benefit the national team in the future. By getting involved in the national league (and other local leagues), you're directly helping to create moments of national celebration like last night. You also get glimpses of the next stars of Irish football - the next Shane Long or Wes Hoolahan. There's plenty of excitement and quality in our own league and I hope we can continue to supply the national side well into the future.

MagicIRL

Sorry, don't mind me... Just getting comfy...

CSF

Agree completely. The best situation that can be achieved is that fans of the league and fans of the national team are all the one.

This has nothing to do with English football so it doesn't need to be such. People can like Ireland, an Irish football team, and an English football team all at once. Hell, throw in a Spanish and German team while you're at it.

While we're here, Shels vs Waterford kicks off at 7:15 tomorrow evening. Just sayin

SantryRed

I'm genuinely not here for a LOI vs. foreign league argument but did anyone catch Slavan Bilic's comments on ITV before the first Croatia game?

He directly stated that he feels that their strong national league helps develop the players before they move on to bigger and brighter things. He said that if a player is good enough at 17/18, he's thrown straight into the top league with the top teams and that's how they earn their trade. Croatia is a very comparable country to us in terms of population and it really is what we should strive for.

The league was in its pomp when we produced these players that are now playing for the national team were doing it week in week out, but I don't think the same standard of player is currently in the LOI. The league is slowly falling apart and is horrible to see.

batistuta9

Moyes said that Coleman was petty clueless when he went over to England, they had to put a lot of work into him. think it was tactically he was talking about.
The only reason I remember it was bill o'herlihy actually said after the clip that's harsh on Sligo/loi

Any thoughts on that, fair comment or was he exaggerating things

CSF

batistuta9 wrote: »

Moyes said that Coleman was petty clueless when he went over to England, they had to put a lot of work into him. think it was tactically he was talking about.
The only reason I remember it was bill o'herlihy actually said after the clip that's harsh on Sligo/loi

Any thoughts on that, fair comment or was he exaggerating things

I think it's fair to say there is a massive gap between the Premier League and the League of Ireland yeah.

Can't see how there'd have been a Coleman without the league though at the same time. A stronger league would send players less 'clueless' than Moyes got Coleman is the hope.

Bounty Hunter

For those who watch the league regularily who do you reckon might be the next Coleman or Wes Hoolahan?

briany

SantryRed wrote: »

I'm genuinely not here for a LOI vs. foreign league argument but did anyone catch Slavan Bilic's comments on ITV before the first ITV game?

He directly stated that he feels that their strong national league helps develop the players before they move on to bigger and brighter things. He said that if a player is good enough at 17/18, he's thrown straight into the top league with the top teams and that's how they earn their trade. Croatia is a very comparable country to us in terms of population and it really is what we should strive for.

The league was in its pomp when we produced these players that are now playing for the national team were doing it week in week out, but I don't think the same standard of player is currently in the LOI. The league is slowly falling apart and is horrible to see.

Scotland have a league that is way more developed than the LoI and yet it has fielded a team comparable to Ireland in skill throughout the years.

There's a big difference between Croatia and Ireland as well. Croatia don't have a next door neighbour with both a very high level of cultural familiarity and a much more developed domestic scene attracting its best players away at a young age. The cultural barrier between Croatia and its neighbours with better leagues would surely make hanging on for a while in Croatia a more attractive option.

How would the LoI convince young players to hang on in the face of this? You need to give impetus to young lads who show talent for the game. Don't forget that these lads are also thinking about their future and it's only to a loyal few that hanging around for the likes of Bohs would be a more attractive option than trying for the glitz and glamour of a big Premiership club. The LoI needs the cash to be able to turn around and offer some of these kids the impetus to hang on in Ireland because I'm sure that a good number of them would like to do so, but like many they also want the success they feel befits their talent. While some may overestimate their skill and crash and burn in England, the LoI simply can't offer a long-term attraction to the ones coming through with genuine potential. Not without the cash.

CSF

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

For those who watch the league regularily who do you reckon might be the next Coleman or Wes Hoolahan?

Probably someone who has already left, Forrester. Daryl Horgan is also excellent but with him turning 24, he will need to move swiftly like Hoolahan did.

Adam McDonnell was making the first team squads at Ipswich as a teenager having only left Shelbourne a year or so previous so I think there is hope there too.

A lot of the time like McClean, it's hard to know which players are going to make those swift jumps once they move over, as I think the likes of Towell and Finn would have been more fancied and neither seem like they are going to make that push right now.

CSF

briany wrote: »

Scotland have a league that is way more developed than the LoI and yet it has fielded a team comparable to Ireland in skill throughout the years.

There's a big difference between Croatia and Ireland as well. Croatia don't have a next door neighbour with both a very high level of cultural familiarity and a much more developed domestic scene attracting its best players away at a young age. The cultural barrier between Croatia and its neighbours with better leagues would surely make hanging on for a while in Croatia a more attractive option.

How would the LoI convince young players to hang on in the face of this? You need to give impetus to young lads who show talent for the game. Don't forget that these lads are also thinking about their future and it's only to a loyal few that hanging around for the likes of Bohs would be a more attractive option than trying for the glitz and glamour of a big Premiership club. The LoI needs the cash to be able to turn around and offer some of these kids the impetus to hang on in Ireland because I'm sure that a good number of them would like to do so, but like many they also want the success they feel befits their talent. While some may overestimate their skill and crash and burn in England, the LoI simply can't offer a long-term attraction to the ones coming through with genuine potential. Not without the cash.

It's not about stopping players from going to the United academy though, it's about having another option for those who don't become Robbie Brady having been there. Too many players fall through the current system.

briany

CSF wrote: »

It's not about stopping players from going to the United academy though, it's about having another option for those who don't become Robbie Brady having been there. Too many players fall through the current system.

Good point, but still to become that option you'll need ways of attracting players back. The disparity is such that the top earners, as reported in the Independent, would only earn 40,000 Euros a year. So, that's your top earner and that only just about has some kind of parity with what a journeyman footballer in League 2 earns in England.

CSF

briany wrote: »

Good point, but still to become that option you'll need ways of attracting players back. The disparity is such that the top earners, as reported in the Independent, would only earn 40,000 Euros a year. So, that's your top earner and that only just about has some kind of parity with what a journeyman footballer in League 2 earns in England.

Absolutely, the stronger the league, the better it will be able to improve the national team.

batistuta9

CSF wrote: »

I think it's fair to say there is a massive gap between the Premier League and the League of Ireland yeah.

Can't see how there'd have been a Coleman without the league though at the same time. A stronger league would send players less 'clueless' than Moyes got Coleman is the hope.

Maybe more a reflection of the youth coaching in england compared to Ireland overall though, not just pl clubs academies.

Yeah probably not since that where he got his chance first, it's also helpful for guys like fahey who need to come back home for whatever reason

CSF

batistuta9 wrote: »

Maybe more a reflection of the youth coaching in england compared to Ireland overall though, not just pl clubs academies.

Yeah probably not since that where he got his chance first, it's also helpful for guys like fahey who need to come back home for whatever reason

I don't think there's much of a difference in the youth coaching by way of schoolboy football. Moreso that England have Premier League academies to develop their players once they hit the teenage years. Even still these fall way below their European alternatives.

It'd be great if League of Ireland clubs could have more structured academies than what exists at present but you're looking at money being pumped in and as we come back to, a stronger league. The national under 17 and under 19 leagues will help but aren't an answer by themselves IMO.

magma69

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

For those who watch the league regularily who do you reckon might be the next Coleman or Wes Hoolahan?

Chris Forrester should be a Premier League level player in the next few years imo. Ran the show against Limerick every time I watched him for Pats.

I agree with the OP, it would be great to see more Irish people support the league. It produces some fine players and it's actually good craic to get out there experiencing live football on a regular basis, even if the standard isn't the best.

briany

CSF wrote: »

Absolutely, the stronger the league, the better it will be able to improve the national team.

With a stronger league there comes the worry of what happens to English players in the PL and on down that they're too often edged out in favour of ready-made foreign talent. It's like you want to get the league strong, but not *too* strong.

smileyj1987

The next big thing to come from the league of ireland should be Richie towell , he moved at the right age and should hopefully get more game time next season at Brighton , I do think that all of irelands best players are best off playing in the premier league but in saying that it , the league can be used as a place for them to hone their trade and become better players rather then send them over at 15 or 16.
For that to happen the league will need a lot of finicial backing so clubs can develope facilities and have all the players as full time professionals. That is what hampers the league the most is the fact that alot of the players have to work while playing. I mean if the FAI gave 1.3 million a year to the league for players it could mean each club could have 5 full time players in the airtricity league. The fai could also help out when it comes to player sales I mean Coleman sold for 150 to 200k , I know there are clauses but it seems like that is daylight robbery

Joe_ Public

I believe the FAI could usefully have a look at what they are doing in Iceland and could learn a thing or two from their experience. They may be smaller but they have similar issues to us and familiar problems. From what I read of them, they have a very realistic approach and practical solutions. They understand and accept that players will go abroad at 17 or 18 and don't seek to change this but maximise what they do with the players while they have control over them. Basically, they ensure that when they do go abroad to play, they are in the best possible shape to be successful and it is clearly working for them.

The clubs are the focal point of the system, not the schools, although the latter still have an important role to play. I believe few players will go abroad without having played senior League football, they're not afraid to throw them in young, and the association invests in the clubs, trains their coaches up to Uefa standard, knowing it will get pay back in the numbers of players who are developed. It's a symbiotic relationship, the very thing we don't have here. I recall a quote Ruud Dokter made when he first came here, about how we all had to sing from the same hymn sheet, wondering did he truly understand what he was letting himself in for.

What was said earlier about Seamus Coleman being very raw arriving at Everton is a good point. That wouldn't happen if the FAI made a proper investment in coaching and devised a system where centres of excellence are based around existing club structures rather than stand alone units where the benefits aren't spread around. Over the years I've heard people saying we should be copying this or that model, whether the Ajax way or what they do in Germany, when really it's the successful smaller countries we should be studying and maybe adapting to our own ends.

CSF

briany wrote: »

With a stronger league there comes the worry of what happens to English players in the PL and on down that they're too often edged out in favour of ready-made foreign talent. It's like you want to get the league strong, but not *too* strong.

To be honest I think if you ever got to that point, there wouldn't even be a need for threads like this. Imagine.

Paz-CCFC

SantryRed wrote: »

The league was in its pomp when we produced these players that are now playing for the national team were doing it week in week out, but I don't think the same standard of player is currently in the LOI. The league is slowly falling apart and is horrible to see.

Peaks and troughs. The league will have another period where clubs have success in Europe, get more money in to be able to develop players etc. Only this time, we'll have a proper pathway in place for youth players with the U19s, U17s and we'll get the U15s at some point. It'll be a massive boost for lads to be playing with and against the best from a young age, rather than pissing abound in a local league that they're streets ahead of.

CSF wrote: »

Absolutely, the stronger the league, the better it will be able to improve the national team.

Another point about the improvement is that it's not just about doing something that will pop out some international quality players. It's about improving the overall baseline. Improve the overall pool of talent, so players are able to test their abilities against better competition generally, allowing us to challenge more effectively in Europe, which allows us to get more money etc.

It's like the argument about attendances. It's not just about aiming to get a full house of 7,000 for top of the table clashes between Cork City and Dundalk. It's also about turning Shelbourne v Cobh Ramblers from a game that gets 600 to the type of one that gets 1,000.

breffni bogballer

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

For those who watch the league regularily who do you reckon might be the next Coleman or Wes Hoolahan?

Probably, Ben Mohammed but looks like Tunisia beat us to him,not sure if the FAI
looked into him,looks like a decent prospect

kksaints

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

For those who watch the league regularily who do you reckon might be the next Coleman or Wes Hoolahan?

Would have said Sean Hoare or Lee Desmond at the start of the season but their form has fallen off a cliff so far this season. Sean Gannon of Dundalk could easily be the next Dundalk player to go to England but as a right back he will find it difficult to get to the Irish squad.

FatherTed

I think it's only going to get worse for Irish players in the UK with the new gazillions of pounds the Premiership clubs now have. They've been doing it for years but now more than ever these clubs will be spending even more money on players who have experience in other leagues.

Captain Havoc

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Peaks and troughs. The league will have another period where clubs have success in Europe, get more money in to be able to develop players etc. Only this time, we'll have a proper pathway in place for youth players with the U19s, U17s and we'll get the U15s at some point. It'll be a massive boost for lads to be playing with and against the best from a young age, rather than pissing abound in a local league that they're streets ahead of.

I think this is huge. Even within the league itself, if a player is only playing against a certain level, he can't go above that level, he wouldn't be used to playing against Wexford Youths one week and Italy the next, no matter what his potential is. In the future, because of the underage leagues, we will have players that are used to playing against the best in the country and not being potentially gifted players playing against, well, the likes of me. I remember Kilkenny City had underage teams playing in the local league, that's not the place to develop young players.

I think the next player to come from the league will be Brandon Miele.

I really hope all the poorly run clubs will either cut their cloth or go to the wall. I don't think the FAI are to blame for the league being somewhat behind in a soccer mad country. The FAI does promote the league but a lot of people miss this. Professional football clubs are businesses, they should be able to promote themselves and run their business. Whilst I don't really know first hand but I assume like pretty much every other sport in this country, politics within clubs/ leagues will slow things down to a grind.

letsseehere14

Bounty Hunter wrote:

For those who watch the league regularily who do you reckon might be the next Coleman or Wes Hoolahan?

Young lad for Limerick called Paudie O'Connor. 19. Centre back and always looks comfortable. One of the best players on the pitch every match iv been to in Limerick

Canadel

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

For those who watch the league regularily who do you reckon might be the next Coleman or Wes Hoolahan?

Don't watch it regularly but having been to a game or two recently, Sligo Rovers currently have some very young players showing serious signs of talent. LOI fans will be able to give names and such.

AllGunsBlazing

batistuta9 wrote: »

Moyes said that Coleman was petty clueless when he went over to England, they had to put a lot of work into him. think it was tactically he was talking about.
The only reason I remember it was bill o'herlihy actually said after the clip that's harsh on Sligo/loi

Any thoughts on that, fair comment or was he exaggerating things

Funnily enough I don't see any drastic improvements in Seamie's ability to read the game from his days playing with us in the Showgrounds. His ability to get up and down the wing like he was made out of duracell batteries is what made him stand out. He is still has the exact same blindspot that allows opposition players to slip in behind him.

You also have Mc Clean, who doesn't strike me as being any more poised or considered in possession than he did while playing for Derry, either.

So yeah, I think Moyes was being a bit too up himself tbf.

AllGunsBlazing

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

For those who watch the league regularily who do you reckon might be the next Coleman or Wes Hoolahan?

Gary Boylan looks a genuine prospect. Has already had some interest shown in him from some English clubs.

AgileMyth

Amazing sense of pride watching one of our own captain our country to a vital win like that. Seamie's been a star since the first time he took the ball and went on an awkward looking but effective burst down the wing in the Showgrounds. Without Sligo Rovers and the league of Ireland he'd be playing Gaelic football for Donegal, a shocking waste.

As for the next player to make it into the international team, probably young Gary Rogers of Dundalk!

Paz-CCFC

Another assist for a former League of Ireland player. Shane Long fouled for the penalty. Thought we were unlucky with some of McClean's crosses. We were very close to a McClean assist/Long goal in the second half, that Lloris just managed to tip away.

Proud of the team and especially the League of Ireland lads. They all performed very well and hopefully it'll give a bit of optimism and encouragement to young lads breaking into the league.

Mec27

Brexit could force our hand more than the rise of the prevalence of other foreigners did. It depends what happens, as it stands Irish people aren't considered foreigners in UK but this may become more complex as a us(The EU) vs them(the UK) rises over the next couple of years.

Paz-CCFC

The League of Ireland again showing how vital it is for the national team. Six of the seven goals have come from league graduates. Three from McClean and one each from Coleman, Long and Murphy. The other goal was scored by Hendrick, which was set up by Long. So, home-grown players directly involved in all seven goals. And as pointed out on the Austria match thread, that winning goal was entirely created by the league. Meyler won the ball, passed to Hoolohan, onto McClean, into the back of the net. Not to mention Daryl Horgan making the bench.

Great to see our league not only be represented at the top level, but putting us in the position of being serious contenders for top spot.

howiya

Saw this earlier and thought it was a brilliant post. It's a shame about the timing with the season being over although I don't think it would immediately result in more bums on seats. Long term it is good to see that the FAI are trying to link the two "products" for want of a better word

Adbrowne

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

The League of Ireland again showing how vital it is for the national team. Six of the seven goals have come from league graduates. Three from McClean and one each from Coleman, Long and Murphy. The other goal was scored by Hendrick, which was set up by Long. So, home-grown players directly involved in all seven goals. And as pointed out on the Austria match thread, that winning goal was entirely created by the league. Meyler won the ball, passed to Hoolohan, onto McClean, into the back of the net. Not to mention Daryl Horgan making the bench.

Great to see our league not only be represented at the top level, but putting us in the position of being serious contenders for top spot.

How many of those players were REALLY produced by LOI clubs. A lot (maybe all) of those players who played LOI joined the LOI when they were 17-18-19. The formative years were at junior clubs.

LOI clubs need to be properly invested in underage from u19 down (u17/15/13/11/9).

Lovely Bloke

Hendrick is from Dublin!

applehunter

Adbrowne wrote: »

LOI clubs need to be properly invested in underage from u19 down (u17/15/13/11/9).

u-17 maybe but no reason for players not to continue playing with their junior side up until they are 14/15

Eathrin

Lovely Bloke wrote: »

Hendrick is from Dublin!

Home grown, yes, but never played for a LOI club

gimmick

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

The League of Ireland again showing how vital it is for the national team. Six of the seven goals have come from league graduates. Three from McClean and one each from Coleman, Long and Murphy. The other goal was scored by Hendrick, which was set up by Long. So, home-grown players directly involved in all seven goals. And as pointed out on the Austria match thread, that winning goal was entirely created by the league. Meyler won the ball, passed to Hoolohan, onto McClean, into the back of the net. Not to mention Daryl Horgan making the bench.

Great to see our league not only be represented at the top level, but putting us in the position of being serious contenders for top spot.

Ya, but did any of them beat NewZealand in a friendly on neutral ground?

Corholio

The linking of all underage leagues in the country is vitally important, rather than it being a case of 'we don't want to work with you, we want to develop our own players' that a lot of underage leagues think. The problem with younger players who have developed from Ireland is a lot have skipped a step of playing in the league here and going straight to England. Not every player has to play in the league of course, some are so good at a young age that they are worth trials etc, but the fact it hasn't been seen as a progression or a next step has been a sad state of affairs and I firmly believe would have prepared players more and made them better before they went to the UK.

Paz-CCFC

Adbrowne wrote: »

How many of those players were REALLY produced by LOI clubs. A lot (maybe all) of those players who played LOI joined the LOI when they were 17-18-19. The formative years were at junior clubs.

I'd consider 17/18/19 to very much be part of the "formative years". Training compensation and solidarity payments are applicable all the way up to 23 years of age, so it'd suggest that at 17-19, there's still quite a way to go before a player is "fully formed".

These players also show how beneficial the league is. It is sometimes seen as something that will just stunt development, but these lads have shown that it can be very beneficial. The likes of McClean and Coleman didn't get noticed (enough to warrant an offer, anyway) until they broke into the Derry and Sligo sides. If they had bypassed the league, they could have easily gotten lost in the crowd over in England and slipped through the cracks like so many young players do. Daryl Murphy and Keith Fahey showed that the league has a lot to offer returning young lads who didn't originally make the cut over there and how valuable clubs here can be for them. Fahey in particular showed that you have plenty of time to develop back at home - he was just shy of 26 before he joined Birmingham and was 27 before he got his first cap.

Daryl Horgan is currently showing that you're well capable of being in contention for international caps whilst playing in the league. And his wasn't a token call-up for a mickey mouse friendly. It was away to one of the higher seeds in the qualifiers (they're the highest ranking in the UEFA rankings in our group, which is far more reliable than FIFA's system). That's a great achievement and he will probably get his first cap next year.

LOI clubs need to be properly invested in underage from u19 down (u17/15/13/11/9).

Couldn't agree more. This wasn't really possible in the past, though. The local leagues have been very opposed to letting LoI teams in. Cork City used to have teams in the local youth leagues here, but the other clubs essentially kicked us out.

There has been a lot of fantastic groundwork in the past few years, though. The U19 league launched in 2011, the U17 last year and the U15s in on the way in 2017. This will give the best players at an even younger age the chance to pit themselves against higher quality opponents, which will only be good for them long term. It's also better for the vast majority to join a system like this, than get lost abroad and most likely be cast away and become disillusioned.

It'll be a while until we reap the rewards, though. It'll probably be at least a decade until we see a lad who played in the U15 league get capped for the international side. And it'll be another 5-10 years after that until we see the groundwork bearing fruit and more better quality, homegrown players breaking into the international team. It's something that will be well worth waiting for.

Paz-CCFC

We've done it again. 9 of the 12 goals in the group scored by ex-League of Ireland players in matches that won us 16 of the 19 points. Fantastic stuff.

It's amazing how the importance of the league for the national team has grown over the years. Going from little involvement, to a few token caps, to a player or two formerly of the league properly breaking into the team, to a player or two becoming regulars and now to the core of the team being ex-LoI lads and being the driving force in getting us to playoffs/major tournaments/the knockout round etc.

The next step will be for promising players to get capped, and more than just a token, while still in the league. It probably should've happened for Daryl Horgan and Seánie Maguire when they were still here. Hopefully it'll happen at some stage in the not too distant future.

Zebra3

I think the next step is to have a financially stable league, properly marketed, with decent facilities (proper stands without obstructive views and decent toilets), and for each club to have a realistic development plan for it to grow at LoI level and at schoolboy/girl level and WNL. Attendances need to grow across the league and not just at whoever is successful atm.

Two clubs were wound up during last winter, that’s 10%, and replaced with new clubs. Why any business would give LoI clubs credit is beyond me.

One of those two new clubs then strolled to promotion. Hardly encouraging fair play and all that.