UK Votes to leave EU

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is nothing anywhere precluding the DUP from joining an all island forum only their inherent bigotry

Why would they? That would be subverting the rightful role of the UK government to handle foreign relations. You're the only.one who mentioned legislation.

The GFA has within it the mechanism for both jurisdictions to work together, the entire agreement enshrines an ethos of a shared future.

Nobody was asking Arlene to sell her soul or do anything her masters might frown on, and the Irish gov had and is having discussions already anyway with London.

Direct quotes please. Don't tell me what the GFA has, show me.

Good then let them continue, they don't need Northern Ireland stepping outside its bounds to conduct foreign relations with the Irish government.

Iwasfrozen

tomwaterford wrote: »

Is the big question here....if citizens of the north are irish as they are entitled to be.....ergo there citizens of Europe aswell??

If they hold Irish citizenship they are citizens of theneu by virtue of that post Brexit yes.

tomwaterford

maryishere wrote: »

They are too busy raking in the money due to their increased business since the referendum. It is noticeable now how many adds there are in our papers in the Republic from northern hotels selling their packages down here. The supermarket car parks in Newry and Enniskillen and Derry have a good proportion of southern cars again - far more than this time last year.

Yes....but the money there taking in is worth a lot less

All of which is irrelevant without actually figures....due out the the first week of november and then the end of year to account for the busy Xmas period iirc

FrancieBrady

maryishere wrote: »

They are too busy raking in the money due to their increased business since the referendum. It is noticeable now how many adds there are in our papers in the Republic from northern hotels selling their packages down here. The supermarket car parks in Newry and Enniskillen and Derry have a good proportion of southern cars again - far more than this time last year.

Do you have a quote or link to this or has your friend told you.
Sterling fluctuations have been a feature for decades.
Has a hotelier or store owner saidBrexit is a good thing?

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why would they? That would be subverting the rightful role of the UK government to handle foreign relations. You're the only.one who mentioned legislation.


Direct quotes please. Don't tell me what the GFA has, show me.

Good then let them continue, they don't need Northern Ireland stepping outside its bounds to conduct foreign relations with the Irish government.

If NI is stepping out of its 'bounds' those 'bounds' will be defined. Where?

I can't quote the GFA because I'm on a tablet. But if it doesnt espouse both jurisdictions working together on a shared whole island future. Please say it here in black and white and I will take great pleasure tomorrow pointing the clauses out to you.

tomwaterford

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If they hold Irish citizenship they are citizens of theneu by virtue of that post Brexit yes.

Of which all citizens of the north are entitled to


The Irish government and the eu is somewhat prudently looking after the rights of a million plus potentialy of its citizens


I do believe history had taught of the south badly for abdaning nationlists in the north from the 1920s on and no way should the state make the same mistake again

Neither should the eu abandon it's million plus potential citizens either....to a region which is very strong at the minute on anti-immigration sentiment

First Up

maryishere wrote:

They are too busy raking in the money due to their increased business since the referendum. It is noticeable now how many adds there are in our papers in the Republic from northern hotels selling their packages down here. The supermarket car parks in Newry and Enniskillen and Derry have a good proportion of southern cars again - far more than this time last year.

And the economic benefits are what exactly - a few more early school leavers getting jobs as shop assistants?

Meanwhile the price of the UK's imports goes up and up. And in case you didn't know, the UK imports more than it exports.

Of course the UK does well selling financial services but I notice that you have been silent about todays piece in the Financial Times that the UK will continue to contribute billions to the EU, so they are allowed continued access. How much cheap lager will they need to sell around Newry to compensate for that?

maryishere

Talking to some English people about the EC / EU, it was not difficult to get the feeling they often were very sceptical of the value they perceived they were getting from their financial contribution to Europe over the decades. We done well in this country. I remember some Englash visitor continually questioning the large handouts we got from Europe ( Germany and the UK being its 2 biggest net contributers). For example, the 8 billion Albert Reynolds brought home from the meeting in Edinburgh.
" A deal he pulled off at an EU summit in Edinburgh in December 1992 won €8 billion in structural and cohesion funds for Ireland "
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/what-s-in-a-billion-1.167873
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/albert-reynolds-s-towering-achievement-was-the-peace-process-1.1904120

I remember some English tourists coming to Ireland in our Celtic tiger years, and being utterly amazed that the landlady of the "mansion" of their B+B said that Europe / EC / EU paid for half of her quite new B+B. They were amazed at the size of the houses and all the building in Ireland. And we were getting billions in other European money per year, when the countries labourers were going to New York on shopping weekends. A few years later the English tourists said they came back to stay at the b+b, knocked on the door, but the landlady said she stopped doing b+b, it was her private house now.

tomwaterford

Are we correct in saying Mary thinks the eu was conspiring to take money off the English to build b and bs in ireland :pac: :pac: :pac: :pac: :pac: :pac:

FrancieBrady

maryishere wrote: »

Talking to some English people about the EC / EU, it was not difficult to get the feeling they often were very sceptical of the value they perceived they were getting from their financial contribution to Europe over the decades. We done well in this country. I remember some Englash visitor continually questioning the large handouts we got from Europe ( Germany and the UK being its 2 biggest net contributers). For example, the 8 billion Albert Reynolds brought home from the meeting in Edinburgh.
" A deal he pulled off at an EU summit in Edinburgh in December 1992 won €8 billion in structural and cohesion funds for Ireland "
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/what-s-in-a-billion-1.167873
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/albert-reynolds-s-towering-achievement-was-the-peace-process-1.1904120

I remember some English tourists coming to Ireland in our Celtic tiger years, and being utterly amazed that the landlady of the "mansion" of their B+B said that Europe / EC / EU paid for half of her quite new B+B. They were amazed at the size of the houses and all the building in Ireland. And we were getting billions in other European money per year, when the countries labourers were going to New York on shopping weekends. A few years later the English tourists said they came back to stay at the b+b, knocked on the door, but the landlady said she stopped doing b+b, it was her private house now.

We all know who paid for Britain's big houses.

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If NI is stepping out of its 'bounds' those 'bounds' will be defined. Where?

I can't quote the GFA because I'm on a tablet. But if it doesnt espouse both jurisdictions working together on a shared whole island future. Please say it here in black and white and I will take great pleasure tomorrow pointing the clauses out to you.

The bounds established by devolution. No country of the UK may handle foreign affairs or defense.

Does it mandate that all parties work together on Brexit? If not no one is in breach of the GFA.

maryishere

First Up wrote: »

And in case you didn't know, the UK imports more than it exports.

I knew that, and it is obvious that sterling was overvalued, and the currency re-alingment since the referendum should encourage the UK to import less and export more.

Iwasfrozen

tomwaterford wrote: »

Of which all citizens of the north are entitled to


The Irish government and the eu is somewhat prudently looking after the rights of a million plus potentialy of its citizens

I do believe history had taught of the south badly for abdaning nationlists in the north from the 1920s on and no way should the state make the same mistake again

Neither should the eu abandon it's million plus potential citizens either....to a region which is very strong at the minute on anti-immigration sentiment

We should look after our citizens if their rights are in danger. But their rights aren't in danger and the rest are not our business.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Xenophobic Little Englander

She's not the majority.

First Up

maryishere wrote:

I remember some English tourists coming to Ireland in our Celtic tiger years, and being utterly amazed that the landlady of the "mansion" of their B+B said that Europe / EC / EU paid for half of her quite new B+B.

You mean you didn't get the EU to pay for half your house? I thought everyone did that.

Hilarious.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The bounds established by devolution. No country of the UK may handle foreign affairs or defense.

Does it mandate that all parties work together on Brexit? If not no one is in breach of the GFA.

I didn't say anything about breaching the GFA. I said there was ample scope within it for both jurisdictions to work together in areas that affected them.
That is an agreement signed by both the British and Irish govs

So you bull**** bounds don't exist.

tomwaterford

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We should look after our citizens if their rights are in danger. But their rights aren't in danger and the rest are not our business.

Given the history of the north and the way nationlists were treated after the last time the south left them at it....

No way should a chance to repeat history be allowed
If anything it's an increased role in the north the state should be looking at



Unless you agree with what went down between 1922 and 1969 in the north? ?

The Rape of Lucretia

tomwaterford wrote: »

Neither should the eu abandon it's million plus potential citizens either

It wouldnt be abandoning them. They voted to leave the EU in a democratic vote. The must respect this decision.

tomwaterford

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It wouldnt be abandoning them. They voted to leave the EU in a democratic vote. The must respect this decision.

Despite a majority of the north voting remain??


They as opposed to rest of the UK will still be entitled to be eu citizens

The Rape of Lucretia

tomwaterford wrote: »

Despite a majority of the north voting remain??

Most certainly. It was a vote for the UK as a whole, on whether the UK should stay or leave. The country voted to leave. Being part of that country they must leave too - thats democracy. You do not pick and choose this little region or that one to stay or leave individually - why not have a free for all - let each citizen choose to be in the EU or not as they wish - and observe its rules and privileges accordingly. Clearly nonsense.
They could vote to leave the UK. Or to join the Eire. Or to join Scotland if they also left. But that is another story. As it is, they have voted to leave.

tomwaterford

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Most certainly. It was a vote for the UK as a whole, on whether the UK should stay or leave. The country voted to leave. Being part of that country they must leave too - thats democracy. You do not pick and choose this little region or that one - why not have a free for all - let each citizen choose to be in the EU or not as they wish - and observe it rules and privileges accordingly. Clearly nonsense.
They could vote to leave the UK. Or to join the Eire. Or to join Scotland if they also left. But that is another story. As it is, they have voted to leave.

So we have the rather bizarre situation of where everyone born in the north from here out can be a citizen of Eu bespite not being in the eu???


Quite rightly the eu and Ireland should look after its citizens imo

maryishere

First Up wrote: »

You mean you didn't get the EU to pay for half your house?

I did or do not have a B+B or get a leader grant. What is beyond dispute are the many billions we got in this country from Germany anf the UK, like the 8 billion our then Taoiseach brought home from Edinburgh in 1992, as widely reported at the time (link given earlier ).

Perhaps if we were not so greedy or wasteful of EC funds then the likes of the UK would not have wanted to leave / stop contributing?

The Rape of Lucretia

tomwaterford wrote: »

So we have the rather bizarre situation of where everyone born in the north from here out can be a citizen of Eu bespite not being in the eu???


Quite rightly the eu and Ireland should look after its citizens imo

They would be in the EU. They would be citizens of Eire living abroad. And so as entitled to EU citizenship as any other citizen of the Republic living abroad.

tomwaterford

maryishere wrote: »

I did or do not have a B+B or get a leader grant. What is beyond dispute are the many billions we got in this country from Germany anf the UK, like the 8 billion our then Taoiseach brought home from Edinburgh in 1992, as widely reported at the time (link given earlier ).

What is the exact point your trying to raise here???


Your points were readable aren't coherently amounting to anything

First Up

maryishere wrote:

I knew that, and it is obvious that sterling was overvalued, and the currency re-alingment since the referendum should encourage the UK to import less and export more.

Yes it should, and as 45% of those exports go to the EU, they better be ready to spend a few more billion to keep access to the single market like they will be doing for services.

And don't forget that a quarter of UK exports are comprised of imported components.

The Rape of Lucretia

tomwaterford wrote: »

Your points were readable aren't coherently amounting to anything

Your points were readable aren't coherently amounting to anything

tomwaterford

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

They would be in the EU. They would be citizens of Eire living abroad. And so as entitled to EU citizenship as any other citizen of the Republic.

You do the English are trying to pull the north out of the eu??


And it's being discussed the best way to look after the million plus citizens of Ireland that'll be trapped in the north.....unless you want them abandoned like 1922-1969
(That ended badly)

FrancieBrady

maryishere wrote: »

I did or do not have a B+B or get a leader grant. What is beyond dispute are the many billions we got in this country from Germany anf the UK, like the 8 billion our then Taoiseach brought home from Edinburgh in 1992, as widely reported at the time (link given earlier ).

Perhaps if we were not so greedy or wasteful of EC funds then the likes of the UK would not have wanted to leave / stop contributing?

Britain Germany etc KNEW they would contribute, that was the WHOLE point of the project. Ireland knew that it too would become a contributor, do you know anything on the subject you are trying to discuss?

The Rape of Lucretia

tomwaterford wrote: »

You do [know] the English are trying to pull the north out of the eu??

They are not trying to pull the north out of the EU. The north voted to leave the EU by majority democratic vote.

First Up

FrancieBrady wrote:

Britain Germany etc KNEW they would contribute, that was the WHOLE point of the project. Ireland knew that it too would become a contributor, do you know anything on the subject you are trying to discuss?

We are talking to someone who thinks a busy car park at a Newry shopping centre is an indicator of prosperity.

I really wouldn't bother.

1st dalkey dalkey

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

They are not trying to pull the north out of the EU. The north voted to leave the EU by majority democratic vote.

The UK voted to leave the EU. The 'North' wasn't given a separate vote. Therefore it is not technically correct to say the north voted to leave. Their particular wish was outvoted by the rest of the UK.

I was going to use your initials to address you, but thought the better of it.

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't say anything about breaching the GFA. I said there was ample scope within it for both jurisdictions to work together in areas that affected them.
That is an agreement signed by both the British and Irish govs

So you bull**** bounds don't exist.

But why should they? Brexit is a UK issue. Why would NI hold meetings with a foreign country without the rest of the UK?

1st dalkey dalkey

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But why should they? Brexit is a UK issue. Why would NI hold meetings with a foreign country without the rest of the UK?

Maybe for the same reason that Ireland might hold a meeting with the UK without the rest of the EU.
Informal, of course. But there is nothing to stop us discussing anything at any time, unofficially.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But why should they? Brexit is a UK issue. Why would NI hold meeting with a foreign country without the rest of the UK?

Common sense?

It is going to affect this island.
There were no obstacles to everyone sitting down and discussing the impending change except Arlene had to play to the rabble with her hidebound ignorant response.
It seems to have struck a chord with her fans on her though who have tried to invent 'bounds' that don't exist.

And Brexit is an EU issue btw.

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Common sense?

It is going to affect this island.
There were no obstacles to everyone sitting down and discussing the impending change except Arlene had to play to the rabble with her hidebound ignorant response.
It seems to have struck a chord with her fans on her though who have tried to invent 'bounds' that don't exist.

It's going to affect this archipelago. Why would you leave the rest of the UK out of these meetings?

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

She's not the majority.

Apologies. Maybe Francie was referring toothed 850,000 Welsh that voted to leave, maybe they're the xenophobic little Englanders?

It maybe Francie just likes making sweeping generalisations about a foreign country?

Iwasfrozen

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

Maybe for the same reason that Ireland might hold a meeting with the UK without the rest of the EU.
Informal, of course. But there is nothing to stop us discussing anything at any time, unofficially.

Well then there's no reason why they can't discuss this directly with the UK government. Unofficially.

FrancieBrady

The

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's going to affect this archipelago. Why would you leave the rest of the UK out of these meetings?

The rest of the UK are welcome.
Why wouldn't you discuss common interests with a neighbour?

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The

The rest of the UK are welcome.
Why wouldn't you discuss common interests with a neighbour?

Why wouldn't you? You want to invite NI to meetings without the rest of the UK.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why wouldn't you? You want to invite NI to meetings without the rest of the UK.

Where did I say that?

If the rest of the UK are interested in the affect of their decision on this island they are welcome.

The DUP are the ones who are refusing an all island discussion.

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where did I say that?

If the rest of the UK are interested in the affect of their decision on this island they are welcome.

The DUP are the ones who are refusing an all island discussion.

The discussions of any affect Brexit may have on Ireland or NI can be held with the government if the UK. There is no need for the DUP to get directly involved.

steddyeddy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But why should they? Brexit is a UK issue. Why would NI hold meetings with a foreign country without the rest of the UK?

IWF tell me you see no economic or social reason for Northern Ireland to talk to the Rep. You said before you study maths. Please give me some reason to believe that.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The discussions of any affect Brexit may have on Ireland or NI can be held with the government if the UK. There is no need for the DUP to get directly involved.

We are having discussions with the UK government and there is need to discuss and pinpoint problems at a local level.
The request was a sensible and important one. And Arlene played to the bigots. Typical behaviour from the DUP .

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are having discussions with the UK government and there is need to discuss and pinpoint problems at a local level.
The request was a sensible and important one. And Arlene played to the bigots. Typical behaviour from the DUP .

Any local issues arising from Brexit such as the border can be held with the UK givernment. I don't see what an all Ireland congress could achieve that discussions with the UK government can't.

1st dalkey dalkey

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The discussions of any affect Brexit may have on Ireland or NI can be held with the government if the UK. There is no need for the DUP to get directly involved.

Why would you want to deny the DUP an input?

From the GFA;

""... the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities".

First Up

Iwasfrozen wrote:

Any local issues arising from Brexit such as the border can be held with the UK givernment. I don't see what an all Ireland congress could achieve that discussions with the UK government can't.

Which bit of the UK government do you suggest?

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Any local issues arising from Brexit such as the border can be held with the UK givernment. I don't see what an all Ireland congress could achieve that discussions with the UK government can't.

Of course you can't.
A few minutes ago The DUP were 'bound' by some unknown force from discussing a area of huge implications for everyone on this island. Now its a forlorn, 'I just can't what it could achieve'.

At least you didn't make a fool of yourself and insist there were mysterious 'bounds'.

FrancieBrady

First Up wrote: »

Which bit of the UK government do you suggest?

Exactly. On foot of an invitation who would they send...some Devon plumbers

1st dalkey dalkey

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Any local issues arising from Brexit such as the border can be held with the UK givernment. I don't see what an all Ireland congress could achieve that discussions with the UK government can't.

The discussions would be informal and exploratory. They would not, and could not due to their informal nature, decide anything.
Just as unofficial discussions between Ireland and the UK would be informal and incapable of making any decisions.
You seem to have an inordinate need to centralise control of discussion in Westminster.

FA Hayek

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Bless your cotton socks. Educate yourself a little and read up on the 'Battle at Springmartin' here. One thing stopped ethnic cleansing akin to what happened in Bombay Street.

Guns. Guns in the hands of Republicans.

Again, Republican revisionism. Why did the Provos go on to bomb urban centres so in the North and Britain? Why did this defensive war descend into this bombing busy shopping malls killing innocent children?

My claim is actually true.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/troops/chap4.htm

A broad swathe of Catholic opinion, from the Catholic church and the Nationalist party through to the Independent Organisation accepted the presence of the army. They saw it as necessary, as much for the restoration of law and order and some form of 'policing', as for the 'defence' of Catholic areas in Derry. Initially there was a great deal of goodwill towards the army and there was what one Republican later described as a ‘pathetic love relationship’ between the army and people in the Bogside.[3] Apprehension in the Catholic community was centred, not around how the army's role would develop but on ‘what will happen when they are withdrawn’.[4] Even a Labour radical such as Eamonn McCann could argue at one point, that the Free Derry barricades should remain because otherwise the troops might leave and they would be left again at the mercy of Stormont.[5]