UK Votes to leave EU

catbear

Might be getting a few blimps cheaply off the brits in their closing down sale, the hot air comes free.

Fratton Fred

catbear wrote: »

Might be getting a few blimps cheaply off the brits in their closing down sale, the hot air comes free.

plenty of hot air on this thread from the little Irelanders.

wes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

plenty of hot air on this thread from the little Irelanders.

Last I checked, no increase in Irish people running around beating up Brits. However, we see Brexiters increasingly attack foreigners or anyone seen to be one over in the UK. A lot of people scared over there, due to the unleashed hatred and Xenophobia.

Fratton Fred

Fratton Fred wrote: »

plenty of hot air on this thread from the little Irelanders.

wes wrote: »

Last I checked, no increase in Irish people running around beating up Brits. However, we see Brexiters increasingly attack foreigners or anyone seen to be one over in the UK. A lot of people scared over there, due to the unleashed hatred and Xenophobia.

yep

catbear

I reckon if Brexit stalls they'll end up with troops on the streets.

kunst nugget

catbear wrote: »

I reckon if Brexit stalls they'll end up with troops on the streets.

Dr. Peter Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
Mayor: What do you mean, “biblical”?
Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath-of-God type stuff.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.
Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling.
Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes…
Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together – mass hysteria.

It's like Ghostbusters predicted Brexit…

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is mine and many others belief that the UK is not averse to overreacting/starting a war (witness WMD and The Malvinas) to distract their electorate.

Argentina invaded the Falkands. They started the war and they should be thankful Thatcher wasn't the sort to use trident.

catbear

Yeah, as much as the brits are effers as imperialists I don't believe the argentinian claim has much merit. The brits were exploiting it before argentina was a nation.
Plus there are still lots of territorial entanglements left over when Spain lost control in south america.

nah, the falklands was a distraction vehicle for the junta.

Just like how the british establishment tells the people they're shafting that its the EUs fault. Who will they blame now? Oh yes, outsiders like the polish shop owners in coventry.

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Britain is perfectly capable of meeting it's obligations, even more so when the carriers are commissioned.

Yet more whimsy in the face of a link that points out what is facing the British. 'Nah, Brits are top dog'.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Argentina invaded the Falkands. They started the war and they should be thankful Thatcher wasn't the sort to use trident.

Thatcher was almost talked out of responding. She decided to and revived a flagging career.
The potential for that kind of distraction to be 'arranged' again (prior to the Argentinian invasion, Britain dropped it's presence in the SA, as they have done again) is high.

As they used say, if Kate Adie moves into your holiday hotel, start getting nervous.

wes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

yep

Denial not just a river in Egypt:
Hate crimes soared by 41% after Brexit vote, official figures reveal

Ignore the facts all you like. Doesn't change them. No equivalent against Brits in Ireland or any where else in Europe.

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yet more whimsy in the face of a link that points out what is facing the British. 'Nah, Brits are top dog'. .

no, just pointing out the obvious, that Britain is perfectly capable of defending itself.

how are York City doing these days?

Fratton Fred

wes wrote: »

Denial not just a river in Egypt:
Hate crimes soared by 41% after Brexit vote, official figures reveal

Ignore the facts all you like. Doesn't change them. No equivalent against Brits in Ireland or any where else in Europe.

I'm not ignoring any facts, that is an awful statistic.

I'm questioning your motives for posting it.

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, just pointing out the obvious, that Britain is perfectly capable of defending itself.

how are York City doing these days?

It is easy to see what you are doing Fred. This is not a comparison with Ireland, we have not set ourselves up as riding shotgun for the world's real power brokers.


Where is it 'perfectly obvious' that Britain is perfectly capable of defending itself? Now or into the Brexit future?

indioblack

wes wrote: »

Last I checked, no increase in Irish people running around beating up Brits. However, we see Brexiters increasingly attack foreigners or anyone seen to be one over in the UK. A lot of people scared over there, due to the unleashed hatred and Xenophobia.

Nonsense.
If there are a lot of scared people over here, they're keeping it to themselves - which makes the claim of "unleashed hatred" look pretty daft.
"Unleashed hatred" could be thrown at some of the predictable posters in this thread in the last few days.

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is easy to see what you are doing Fred. This is not a comparison with Ireland, we have not set ourselves up as riding shotgun for the world's real power brokers.


Where is it 'perfectly obvious' that Britain is perfectly capable of defending itself? Now or into the Brexit future?

who is it a comparison with and who does Britain need to defend itself against?

why are you concerned, is it because you know that you rely on Britain to defend you as well?

VinLieger

Great simple and quick vid explaining international trade deals that every brexiter should be made watch

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

who is it a comparison with and who does Britain need to defend itself against?

why are you concerned, is it because you know that you rely on Britain to defend you as well?

I didn't make a comparison at all.

We are discussing what becomes of Britains defence policy after Brexit.

Now you seem to be suggesting that 'defence' consists of rushing out and buying a few destroyers and planes when ever a threat actually presents itself.
Or even sillier, in the face of a quote, (where the supreme power in NATO actually tells them that they need to spend and keep spending) you fail to tell us how they will maintain their current position nevermind re-invest.

wes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm not ignoring any facts, that is an awful statistic.

I'm questioning your motives for posting it.

Just pointing out the reason why people are using the term "Littler Englander", which I assume is why you started to use the term "Little Irelander" in response to that. Your use of that term is a false equivalence imho There is a reason people have chosen to use that term.

There is simple no equivalent action against British people in Ireland or Europe.

wes

indioblack wrote: »

Nonsense.
If there are a lot of scared people over here, they're keeping it to themselves - which makes the claim of "unleashed hatred" look pretty daft.
"Unleashed hatred" could be thrown at some of the predictable posters in this thread in the last few days.

wes wrote: »

Hate crimes soared by 41% after Brexit vote, official figures reveal

41% increase. So Yes, hatred unleashed is accurate.

BTW, people have been physically attacked, and one man killed. Making any kind of comparison to anyone on this thread is a utter absurdity, and again a simple example of false equivalence.

As I said earlier, denial not just a river in Egypt.

kunst nugget

wes wrote: »

41% increase. So Yes, hatred unleashed is accurate.

BTW, people have been physically attacked, and one man killed. Making any kind of comparison to anyone on this thread is a utter absurdity, and again a simple example of false equivalence.

As I said earlier, denial not just a river in Egypt.

And Batman isn't just a city in Turkey.

Do you not think you're exaggerating just a wee bit? Apart from the initial outpouring of dismay about racist attacks in the aftermath Brexit in the Guardian, I have to admit I've heard nothing much about it since…

beach_walker

wes wrote: »

Last I checked, no increase in Irish people running around beating up Brits. However, we see Brexiters increasingly attack foreigners or anyone seen to be one over in the UK. A lot of people scared over there, due to the unleashed hatred and Xenophobia.

Yeah there's been an increase in reported incidents, could easily be argued that some head-the-balls have been encouraged but using these or the murder of that Polish man to tar all Brexit voters is pretty stupid. Or implying that it somehow invalidates the result. It'd be like claiming all Remainers are out to kill based on this

VinLieger

kunst nugget wrote: »

And Batman isn't just a city in Turkey.

Do you not think you're exaggerating just a wee bit? Apart from the initial outpouring of dismay about racist attacks in the aftermath Brexit in the Guardian, I have to admit I've heard nothing much about it since…

So you completely missed the news about 6 teenagers viciously murdering a polish man last month? Might need to remove your blinkers?

FrancieBrady

beach_walker wrote: »

Yeah there's been an increase in reported incidents, could easily be argued that some head-the-balls have been encouraged but using these or the murder of that Polish man to tar all Brexit voters is pretty stupid. Or implying that it somehow invalidates the result. It'd be like claiming all Remainers are out to kill based on this

Nobody is saying it was all who voted at all.

The problem is 'xenophobia' 'hate' rises and grows. People get swept into it if they are being cheer led by political leaders.

kunst nugget

VinLieger wrote: »

So you completely missed the news about 6 teenagers viciously murdering a polish man last month? Might need to remove your blinkers?

No, I didn't but the murder of one person, sad as it is, in a country of 53 million odd people would not be hatred unleashed in my eyes.

VinLieger

kunst nugget wrote: »

No, I didn't but the murder of one person, sad as it is, in a country of 53 million odd people would not be hatred unleashed in my eyes.

Fair enough but right now it seems that there are no figures been released for august or september so the only thing people can go off is the July reports and the newspaper reports of attacks like that.

Also you have the constant stirring of hate by newspapers calling for all people disagreeing with brexit to be jailed, you even have an elected conservative councillor saying anyone who disagrees with it to be brought up on charges of treason. All of that just stirs more hate and the reason they are saying and able to get away with saying it is it echoes a wider hate that is festering across the country which worryingly indicates many people agree with those comments

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't make a comparison at all.

We are discussing what becomes of Britains defence policy after Brexit.

Now you seem to be suggesting that 'defence' consists of rushing out and buying a few destroyers and planes when ever a threat actually presents itself.
Or even sillier, in the face of a quote, (where the supreme power in NATO actually tells them that they need to spend and keep spending) you fail to tell us how they will maintain their current position nevermind re-invest.

is this what you are referring to? http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/27/politics/donald-trump-nato-allies/

It's a position that Trump has stated several times before, saying he believes that the US is getting "ripped off" and that some NATO members are getting an unfair "free ride."

CNNMoney reported on NATO payments earlier this month, when the alliance's members met to discuss a number of issues, including money.
NATO is based on the principle of collective defense: an attack against one or several of its members is considered as an attack against all. So far that has only been invoked once -- in response to the September 11 attacks.
To make the principle work, all countries are expected to chip in. NATO's official guidelines say member states should spend at least 2% of their gross domestic product on defense.

Of the 28 countries in the alliance, only five -- the US, Greece, Poland, Estonia and the UK -- meet the target. Many European members -- including big economies like France and Germany -- lag behind. Germany spent 1.19% of its GDP on defense last year and France forked out 1.78%.

beach_walker

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody is saying it was all who voted at all.

Hmm

wes wrote:

However, we see Brexiters increasingly attack foreigners or anyone seen to be one over in the UK.

I guess we're increasingly seeing Remainers killing political opponents too.

Of course I'm not tarring all of them right? And that kind of language in no way increases the bitterness and divisiveness left over from the election, no sir.

FrancieBrady wrote:

The problem is 'xenophobia' 'hate' rises and grows. People get swept into it if they are being cheer led by political leaders.

And let's be honest there's been a fair bit of whipping up of the increase by media outlets to a degree that's getting a bit much. I was in Newcastle (49.3% Leave) for a week recently. Reading some of the media, I (and my Indian and Italian workmates) should count our blessing for getting out of the place in one piece!

kunst nugget

VinLieger wrote: »

Also you have the constant stirring of hate by newspapers calling for all people disagreeing with brexit to be jailed, you even have an elected conservative councillor saying anyone who disagrees with it to be brought up on charges of treason. All of that just stirs more hate and the reason they are saying and able to get away with saying it is it echoes a wider hate that is festering across the country which worryingly indicates many people agree with those comments

What about the people calling for the democratic will of the people to be ignored and accusing anyone that voted for leave of being xenophobic little englanders? Are they not stirring the pot too?

VinLieger

kunst nugget wrote: »

What about the people calling for the democratic will of the people to be ignored and accusing anyone that voted for leave of being xenophobic little englanders? Are they not stirring the pot too?

It wasn't a binding referendum nobody is ignoring the democratic will of anyone by saying it should be held again but binding this time OR it should be done by a parliamentary vote.

Now that many have seen the very real effects and that much of the leave sides claims of "zero effects on the economy" and "350 million back to the NHS" have been proven to be literal outright lies the result very well could be markedly different. Also there's something to be said for a decision of this much impact and is this divisive requiring a minimum majority above 52% before either result is declared to have won.

Also I have yet to hear one brexiter put forward a valid argument that didnt eventually boil down to something to do with foreigners and "making britain great again" but with little or no specifics attached about how either would be achieved

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

is this what you are referring to? http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/27/politics/donald-trump-nato-allies/

I don't know why you had to bring Trump into it. But yes, America has been saying that defence spending has to rise in NATO.

Britains Navy and forces require a massive investment.
Where is it going to come from in a post Brexit world?

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know why you had to bring Trump into it. But yes, America has been saying that defence spending has to rise in NATO.

Britains Navy and forces require a massive investment.
Where is it going to come from in a post Brexit world?

If you look out the window, you might just see two ****ing great big aircraft carriers, the first if which starts commissioning next year and becomes fully operational in 2020. That's with a tranch of F35s to operate from it.

Then there's the new type 26 frigates currently on order....

wes

kunst nugget wrote: »

And Batman isn't just a city in Turkey.

Do you not think you're exaggerating just a wee bit? Apart from the initial outpouring of dismay about racist attacks in the aftermath Brexit in the Guardian, I have to admit I've heard nothing much about it since…

I gave an exact figure, its 41% and my point still stands in regards to there being no equivalent targeting of British in Europe.

Fratton Fred

VinLieger wrote: »

It wasn't a binding referendum nobody is ignoring the democratic will of anyone by saying it should be held again but binding this time OR it should be done by a parliamentary vote.

Now that many have seen the very real effects and that much of the leave sides claims of "zero effects on the economy" and "350 million back to the NHS" have been proven to be literal outright lies the result very well could be markedly different. Also there's something to be said for a decision of this much impact and is this divisive requiring a minimum majority above 52% before either result is declared to have won.

Also I have yet to hear one brexiter put forward a valid argument that didnt eventually boil down to something to do with foreigners and "making britain great again" but with little or no specifics attached about how either would be achieved

I don't disagree at all. I do think it is too soon though.

Whilst I am sure a second referendum would vote to remain, the dust needs to settle a little bit first though.

wes

beach_walker wrote: »

Yeah there's been an increase in reported incidents, could easily be argued that some head-the-balls have been encouraged but using these or the murder of that Polish man to tar all Brexit voters is pretty stupid.

Never said it was all Brexit voters, nor did anyone else.

beach_walker wrote: »

Or implying that it somehow invalidates the result.

Didn't do that either.

beach_walker wrote: »

It'd be like claiming all Remainers are out to kill based on this

You would have a point if I did any of the above. I didn't.

wes

beach_walker wrote: »

I guess we're increasingly seeing Remainers killing political opponents too.

Only Tommy Mair has done that, last I checked. Wasn't a remainer.

beach_walker wrote: »

Of course I'm not tarring all of them right? And that kind of language in no way increases the bitterness and divisiveness left over from the election, no sir.

When, did I say all Brexiters were responsible exactly? The fact remains there has been a increase of racism and Xenophobia, due to Brexit. Lets not pretend that Farage didn't reuse Nazi propaganda for example. Some Brexiters stirred things up, at the end of the day.

beach_walker

wes wrote: »

Only Tommy Mair has done that, last I checked. Wasn't a remainer.

I put up this on the previous page but will link again - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexiter-brutally-beaten-remain-voter-9047676

VinLieger wrote:

Also there's something to be said for a decision of this much impact and is this divisive requiring a minimum majority above 52% before either result is declared to have won.

Totally agree. Definitely should have been brought up properly before the vote.

wes

beach_walker wrote: »

I put up this on the previous page but will link again - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexiter-brutally-beaten-remain-voter-9047676

Missed that. Still a lot of hatred stirred up deliberately by one side. I don't remember anyone on remain reusing Nazi propaganda for example. There is a direct link to the Xenophobia from the Farage Brexit campaign.

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If you look out the window, you might just see two ****ing great big aircraft carriers, the first if which starts commissioning next year and becomes fully operational in 2020. That's with a tranch of F35s to operate from it.

Then there's the new type 26 frigates currently on order....

Where is the money going to come from to maintain this Fred is the question. They have already cut back from 13 to 8 frigates and...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/20/navy-fleet-global-combat-frigates-type-26-indefinitely-delayed-mod-mps-clyde-shipbuilding

Plus there is this opinion:

Indeed, many of Britain’s newest ships are remarkably light. London has placed orders over the past two years for several small, lightly equipped patrol vessels. The net effect is a Royal Navy that's increasingly made up of small, underarmed vessels that maintain the official ship count, but continue the hollowing-out trend that has steadily sapped its real strength.

The new aircraft carriers are perhaps the best examples. The two Queen Elizabeth-class ships, which are 920 feet long and displace more than 60,000 tons of water, are the biggest warships Britain has produced. When they enter frontline service in 2020, they should restore the at-sea aviation capability that the Royal Navy lost when it retired its Harrier jets in 2010.

The Queen Elizabeths, however, were planned for a larger fleet. An aircraft carrier requires more planes and escorts than Britain can provide. The U.S. Navy, for example, never deploys a carrier without 60 aircraft aboard and a convoy of three or four destroyers and cruisers, a submarine and several supply ships.

The Royal Navy expects to deploy just one carrier at a time and keep the second at home. It projects that its new carriers will deploy between 12 and 24 F-35s — too few to use the ships to their full potential. In addition, assigning the vessels needed to accompany and supply the carrier — three or four frigates and destroyers as escort and a several supply ships to sustain it — would monopolize the Royal Navy's entire deployable strength.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-uk-military-navy-commentary-idUSKCN10L1AD


This is all before Brexit and massive pressures on budgets.

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where is the money going to come from to maintain this Fred is the question. They have already cut back from 13 to 8 frigates and...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/20/navy-fleet-global-combat-frigates-type-26-indefinitely-delayed-mod-mps-clyde-shipbuilding

Plus there is this opinion:



http://www.reuters.com/article/us-uk-military-navy-commentary-idUSKCN10L1AD


This is all before Brexit and massive pressures on budgets.

I hate to tell you but Brexit is not going to be the economic train wreck you hope it will be.

Fratton Fred

Jesus, so you're a defence expert now, as well as an economist and a social justice campaigner.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where is the money going to come from to maintain this Fred is the question. They have already cut back from 13 to 8 frigates and...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/20/navy-fleet-global-combat-frigates-type-26-indefinitely-delayed-mod-mps-clyde-shipbuilding

Yes, there's been issues that need resolving befire construction can commence. As there is with pretty much every single project of this size.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Plus there is this opinion:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-uk-military-navy-commentary-idUSKCN10L1AD


This is all before Brexit and massive pressures on budgets.

Has it?, you must have a crystal ball, I didn't think Brexit had happened yet.

If the royal Navy procured ten new aircraft carriers, 500 F35s to fly off them and 80 Type 45s to protect them, there would still be a whole raft of people complaining that it isn't enough.

kunst nugget

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I hate to tell you but Brexit is not going to be the economic train wreck you hope it will be.

Tbf, you don't know what the outcome of Brexit will be anymore than the other poster does.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I hate to tell you but Brexit is not going to be the economic train wreck you hope it will be.

The Mary school of declaiming. 'Because I keep saying it, it is so'.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Jesus, so you're a defence expert now, as well as an economist and a social justice campaigner.

get you.
Just discussing the issues like everyone else.

Yes, there's been issues that need resolving befire construction can commence. As there is with pretty much every single project of this size.



Has it?, you must have a crystal ball, I didn't think Brexit had happened yet.

If the royal Navy procured ten new aircraft carriers, 500 F35s to fly off them and 80 Type 45s to protect them, there would still be a whole raft of people complaining that it isn't enough.

So basically, there is no problems in the British defence area, everything will be ok... just because.

Very good. Carry on.

Iwasfrozen

kunst nugget wrote: »

Tbf, you don't know what the outcome of Brexit will be anymore than the other poster does.

True but his hope of economic armageddon is very unlikely to unfold.

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So basically, there is no problems in the British defence area, everything will be ok... just because.

Very good. Carry on.

Why do you care?

indioblack

wes wrote: »

41% increase. So Yes, hatred unleashed is accurate.

BTW, people have been physically attacked, and one man killed. Making any kind of comparison to anyone on this thread is a utter absurdity, and again a simple example of false equivalence.

As I said earlier, denial not just a river in Egypt.

Thanks for the geography lesson.
It's a matter of balance.
1500 racial and religious attacks in the fortnight prior to the vote - 2200 in the two weeks following - from a population of 64,000,000.
A lot of scared people? No, some.
No hatred from some posters on this thread? This referendum result not giving some posters an opportunity to vent their thinly disguised anti-British spleen?

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why do you care?

Why do you care to dispute?

It's a discussion Fred. The flow of opinions...debate etc.

FrancieBrady

indioblack wrote: »

Thanks for the geography lesson.
It's a matter of balance.
1500 racial and religious attacks in the fortnight prior to the vote - 2200 in the two weeks following - from a population of 64,000,000.
A lot of scared people? No, some.
No hatred from some posters on this thread? This referendum result not giving some posters an opportunity to vent their thinly disguised anti-British spleen?

Yet , with an even smaller ratio of ISIS attacks across the world 'it's a threat western to civilisation' according to some posters on here.

It's a cause for concern, is the point and with Brexit not even implemented yet, very worrying.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

True but his hope of economic armageddon is very unlikely to unfold.

Who said anything about economic 'armageddon'? Are we exaggerating again?

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who said anything about economic 'armageddon'? Are we exaggerating again?

The only one exaggerating is yourself Francie. Exaggerato g the likely effects of Brexit to satisfy your anti British feelings.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The only one exaggerating is yourself Francie. Exaggerato g the likely effects of Brexit to satisfy your anti British feelings.

Anything I have discussed has been backed up by others writing about it and data.

What have you done but repeatedly said, 'ah, it will be alright'