Luas fine due no unvalidated Leap card

Silent Death

This morning I was issued with a standard fare notice.
This was due to lack of credit on my leap card at the time.

I had just arrived at the station behind schedule and because of the rain and delay i was planning to get to the luas up to the Fatima stop, saw the luas coming up the tracks so ran across to jump on and quickly scanned the leap card on the validator before hopping on in view Inspectors. I did have my headphones on, cant hear much noise from the outside world, so assumed the card had tagged on as it always does.

When i was on board i gave the leap card up to the inspector and found out that it had never scanned and couldn't because of lack of credit. Havnt had need to use it since as i've usually walked the route instead and didnt realise it had no credit (usually get Buseireann into town). Hopped off with him at James to top up and tag on properly but he issued me with the 45e fine and wouldnt allow me to correct the mistake.
As someone who has always payed these fees even for the short journeys I thought this was unfair given it was an honest mistake that can easily happen to anyone on the tram line in a rush and in the rain. Naturally ill be listening more carefully in the future.


Any Advise?

schemingbohemia

Suck it up. User error.
Sure everyone could use that excuse, "I was sure it beeped", you might feel it's unfair but it's the only way to ensure fairness for everyone.

Silent Death

Even if there is CCTV proof of me tagging on, in view of the inspector? As well as a massive leap card history of top ups and uses?
Getting on the Luas in full certainty that the card was validated, with no previous strikes and a solid record of compliance isnt enough to prove it was a mistake, one that anyone can make.
Right now the 45e fine would be exceedingly crippling on my already limited budget

Gatling

Unfortunately you didn't make sure you had validated an easy mistake considering you had music on and in a rush .

Silent Death

An easy mistake that seems to carry a hefty fine.

There was no intent to break the bylaws and full compliance with the officer and yet if i had lied and not given him correct details i could have gotten away with it.
It doesnt seem fair

dhaughton99

Do the inspectors not just give you the option to pay for a ticket there and then if you had enough credit on your card?

VincePP

write to them and appeal it - at the worst they can say "no", at best they could waive it.

Being polite and respectful and accepting that you did make an error will help. Saying that you will be sure to take headphones off in future as Beats terms and conditions don't cover fines for failing not to hear a beep could add a light hearted little humour an could also help.

MarkR

Intent doesn't really come into it, nor do past payments. You didn't pay, and didn't notice when your card was not validated. Whose fault is it, do you think? There's nothing else that could have been done by the company to be fair!

Silent Death

Ive been in touch and they reject the appeal

And yes they could have let me hop off and top up to be fair at the discretion of the operator and pay the regular fare. They saw me getting on and tagging on, they were there to witness it

You didnt pay the fare and got fined.

schemingbohemia

Silent Death wrote: »

Ive been in touch and they reject the appeal

And yes they could have let me hop off and top up to be fair at the discretion of the operator and pay the regular fare. They saw me getting on and tagging on, they were there to witness it

Seriously? Try and think of this from outside your own narrow viewpoint.

How would there ever be an incentive to pay if everyone could just hop off and pay when caught?

Silent Death

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Seriously? Try and think of this from outside your own narrow viewpoint.

How would there ever be an incentive to pay if everyone could just hop off and pay when caught?

Narrow Viewpoint, thanks scheming.

And yes I am thinking broadly, ive seen enough of those inspectors pass by groups of people with no ticket because it wasnt worth the hassle or just kick people off who gave them abuse because they had no ticket without issuing the fine.
The ones who try follow the rules seem to get the fines not the other way around. Id argue that the inspectors already employ there own discretion for fines so why not allow the people who try hold by the rules a modicum of breathing space.

Also the Incentive to pay is to keep the trams going, people who wilfully fare dodge are going to keep doing it regardless while the rest will pay

Dyr

I scan onto dublin bus with a leap while wearing headphones every day...theres a visual display so I don't need to listen for a beep, I watch the screen

Pretty sure the luas scanners are the same

Silent Death

It does, Im quite tall and in the rain its not always clear, saw something come up onscreen, figured it was the usual balance deduction.

lil5

There should be a intermodal zonal system and regular users should have peronalised weekly/monthly/yearly tickets and shouldn't have to concern themselves with this tag on/off nonsense.

Tag on/off should be used for single trips / irregular users across all modes (including Dublinbus).

As it is this nonense of inconvenience will be around for another decade.

foggy_lad

OP how do the Luas staff know that you or others saying it only happened once don't do this every day?

bonyn

Suck it up.
Life lesson if anything.

Dodge

I love someone coming on here and saying "any advice" and then, just arguing with what everyone says?

What did you expect to happen? Regardless of the validation, you had no credit it on it. That's your responsibility.

It's not a big deal, but you only have yourself to blame. Pay the fine and move on

Silent Death

Called them,

Apparently they are under no obligation to even supply an appeals system nore to resubmit my appeal if it wasnt satisfactory the first time

wally79

Silent Death wrote: »

The ones who try follow the rules seem to get the fines not the other way around

But you didn't follow the rules

How does the inspector know you aren't doing this regularly? He doesn't.

So should he just believe everybody who has the same story?

Where would that end up?

GBX

So because you are tall, it rained, and the inspectors "saw you tag" and you were late ... you don't deserve a fine?

Silent Death

foggy_lad wrote: »

OP how do the Luas staff know that you or others saying it only happened once don't do this every day?

They wouldnt, dont blame the inspector on the day, just that i believe my appeal is being blown off.

Dodge wrote: »

I love someone coming on here and saying "any advice" and then, just arguing with what everyone says?

What did you expect to happen? Regardless of the validation, you had no credit it on it. That's your responsibility.

It's not a big deal, but you only have yourself to blame. Pay the fine and move on

Advise welcome, so far just criticism. Also 55e in the account at the moment.

wally79 wrote: »

But you didn't follow the rules

How does the inspector know you aren't doing this regularly? He doesn't.

So should he just believe everybody who has the same story?

Where would that end up?

Not the inspectors fault, its an unfair system currently in place is all.

Silent Death

GBX wrote: »

So because you are tall, it rained, and the inspectors "saw you tag" and you were late ... you don't deserve a fine?

If a tissue fell out of your back pocket as you were walking and didnt know is it fair if you get a litter fine?
You didnt know at the time you had broken a rule. Shouldnt you be given a chance to pick up the litter and carry on? Especially if its the first time for you?

foggy_lad

But You have no grounds for an appeal. You were not tagged on and could not be tagged on as you had insufficient credit.

When you tagged on you were notified on the screen that your balance was too low. the light would also have went red instead of green. not the same as a tissue falling unknowns to you

bonyn

Silent Death wrote: »

If a tissue fell out of your back pocket as you were walking and didnt know is it fair if you get a litter fine?
You didnt know at the time you had broken a rule. Shouldnt you be given a chance to pick up the litter and carry on? Especially if its the first time for you?

if you took a tissue out of your pocket and dropped it on the ground and said "oh i thought i threw it in the bin".... That's closer to what happened to you

cdeb

Silent Death wrote: »

Advise welcome, so far just criticism.

You are being given advice. The advice is to accept your error and move on.

Silent Death

cdeb wrote: »

You are being given advice. The advice is to accept your error and move on.

Noted and yes i know, i didnt have a ticket etc etc

My point being the system is skewed and unfair to these incidents

GBX

You feel hard done by OP, but at the end of the day throwing up hypothetical arguments to justify why you got done won't change the fact that you were not tagged on because you had not got enough balance to proceed regardless of what other things happened that affected you noticing if you had the green light to board the Luas.

lifeandtimes

I think if maybe you had credit it on it your case would stronger as a genuine error,the Last time you used it it would have shown your balance.

In saying that though I belive the inspectors really have no powers. Iv seen them ask people for tickets who have said no,they ask for their details and the people refuse and literally just get off the next stop and walk away...with the inspector in tow giving grief but ultimately nothing he can do

foggy_lad

Silent Death wrote: »

Noted and yes i know, i didnt have a ticket etc etc

My point being the system is skewed and unfair to these incidents

YES it is, that is because anyone can claim to have made a similar mistake ato you or been wearing headphones and not noticed or whatever. if all those are to be given a chance to just buy a ticket there would be no point having revenue protection teams as they would have to have a ticket checker on every tram to get people to pay their fare.

cdeb

Silent Death wrote: »

My point being the system is skewed and unfair to these incidents

It's not unfair. Anyone can go up to a machine, pretend to scan their card (or even scan a fake green card), and then say there's CCTV footage of them tagging on when they know they didn't tag on.

Not saying you did this - but if you got away with your argument, everyone would try it, and the system would break down.

The rules as they are are actually entirely fair on everyone.

Level 5 Vegan

You're not a criminal OP, just unlucky. It's sickening but there's nothing you can do really, just pay it and be more careful in future.

Silent Death

lifeandtimes wrote: »

I think if maybe you had credit it on it your case would stronger as a genuine error,the Last time you used it it would have shown your balance.

In saying that though I belive the inspectors really have no powers. Iv seen them ask people for tickets who have said no,they ask for their details and the people refuse and literally just get off the next stop and walk away...with the inspector in tow giving grief but ultimately nothing he can do

i didnt know i had a negative balance until the inspector told me, wouldnt have gotten on otherwise.

foggy_lad wrote: »

YES it is, that is because anyone can claim to have made a similar mistake ato you or been wearing headphones and not noticed or whatever. if all those are to be given a chance to just buy a ticket there would be no point having revenue protection teams as they would have to have a ticket checker on every tram to get people to pay their fare.

Why not like Irish rail, I know you used to be able to buy your tickets on the train, albiet at an increase fare but still a fairer system. Or in Amsterdam or sweden there is an inspector in each tram who checks tickets on each run, he stays onboard and can sell you a ticket etc if you dont have one.

cdeb

Silent Death wrote: »

i didnt know i had a negative balance until the inspector told me, wouldnt have gotten on otherwise.

But that's your fault - no-one else's.

The machine even told you you had a negative balance.

Silent Death

cdeb wrote: »

But that's your fault - no-one else's.

The machine even told you you had a negative balance.

cdeb wrote: »

It's not unfair. Anyone can go up to a machine, pretend to scan their card (or even scan a fake green card), and then say there's CCTV footage of them tagging on when they know they didn't tag on.

Not saying you did this - but if you got away with your argument, everyone would try it, and the system would break down.

The rules as they are are actually entirely fair on everyone.

Which i didnt notice, im not denying that. Im just saying that as systems go the Luas system isnt fair.
Current policy is fair insofar as a blanket fine policy can be but the enforcement of it is skewed towards people who go with the system, thus rendering it an unfair system. I could have said absolutely nothing and not given my details and jumped ship at the next stop and the system would have failed then and there, like it has before but i didnt and paying the consequences for it.
The fine will be payed, the cost of it otherwise is much greater and pointless to pursue.

Level 5 Vegan wrote: »

You're not a criminal OP, just unlucky. It's sickening but there's nothing you can do really, just pay it and be more careful in future.

I know, and yea i will be such as this morning.

ukoda

theres nothing you can do about it in real life, all you are left with is arguing on the internet, which is what i suspect you're doing to vent frustration. but at the end of the day. you'll have to pay the fine and learn a lesson that you are responsible for having a valid ticket, even if its raining, even if you meant to get the bus, even if you don't look at the screen.

cdeb

It's entirely an entirely fair system, and simple to follow.

Your responsibility is to ensure you have a valid ticket. You didn't - that's your fault.

The system cannot cater to all the various potential excuses people can have. It's unfortunate for sure, but it is entirely fair in that way.

selastich2

Silent Death wrote: »

i didnt know i had a negative balance until the inspector told me, wouldnt have gotten on otherwise.



Why not like Irish rail, I know you used to be able to buy your tickets on the train, albiet at an increase fare but still a fairer system. Or in Amsterdam or sweden there is an inspector in each tram who checks tickets on each run, he stays onboard and can sell you a ticket etc if you dont have one.

It seems to be in line with our European partners.

http: //www .amsterdamtips.com/tips/ov-chipkaart.php
1. Revenue protection - to reduce the ability of people to ride for free, something which was endemic on the Amsterdam metro. If you are caught without a ticket or not having checked-in you face the standard fine of €37.50 on GVB or €35 plus rail fare on NS. Additionally, by requiring all travellers to have sufficient pre-paid credit the transport companies are effectively getting an interest-free loan on any unused credit.

Silent Death

ukoda wrote: »

theres nothing you can do about it in real life, all you are left with is arguing on the internet, which is what i suspect you're doing to vent frustration. but at the end of the day. you'll have to pay the fine and learn a lesson that you are responsible for having a valid ticket, even if its raining, even if you meant to get the bus, even if you don't look at the screen.

Still talking to them, but yea also looking for advise and opinions

selastich2 wrote: »

It seems to be in line with our European partners.

http: //www .amsterdamtips.com/tips/ov-chipkaart.php
1. Revenue protection - to reduce the ability of people to ride for free, something which was endemic on the Amsterdam metro. If you are caught without a ticket or not having checked-in you face the standard fine of €37.50 on GVB or €35 plus rail fare on NS. Additionally, by requiring all travellers to have sufficient pre-paid credit the transport companies are effectively getting an interest-free loan on any unused credit.

There tag on systems are in the tram too though, so rushing you can jump on and pay there, with a central hub to top up if needed

cdeb wrote: »

It's entirely an entirely fair system, and simple to follow.

Your responsibility is to ensure you have a valid ticket. You didn't - that's your fault.

The system cannot cater to all the various potential excuses people can have. It's unfortunate for sure, but it is entirely fair in that way.

Im just saying, there are better ways. Stockholms system is the best ive seen by far

cdeb

There may be better ways - though I think the Luas works very efficiently.

However, the Luas way is still very transparent and fair. It is your responsibility to ensure you have a valid ticket. The machine told you you didn't have credit and that you weren't tagged on - so anything after that is, unfortunately, your problem.

Silent Death

cdeb wrote: »

There may be better ways - though I think the Luas works very efficiently.

However, the Luas way is still very transparent and fair. It is your responsibility to ensure you have a valid ticket. The machine told you you didn't have credit and that you weren't tagged on - so anything after that is, unfortunately, your problem.

Works efficiently? Guess the strikes are over now.

Anyhows i dont think we will change each others minds on this cdeb but if it happens to you id love to hear about it

cdeb

The Luas strike has obviously got nothing to do with the efficiency of the Luas ticketing system.

Hollister11

By using the luas you accept there bylaws.

One of which is if you don't have a valid ticket, you pay a standard fare.

You didn't have a valid ticket, so there's no argument here, no grounds for appeal, it's not transdev's fault, or the ticket inspectors fault. It''s all your fault.

Pay the fine, learn the lesson, and have a valid ticket in future.

Silent Death

cdeb wrote: »

The Luas strike has obviously got nothing to do with the efficiency of the Luas ticketing system.

Like i said, i dont think we will come to an agreement on this,m we have differing notions on an efficient system and a fair one

Silent Death

Hollister11 wrote: »

By using the luas you accept there bylaws.

One of which is if you don't have a valid ticket, you pay a standard fare.

You didn't have a valid ticket, so there's no argument here, no grounds for appeal, it's not transdev's fault, or the ticket inspectors fault. It''s all your fault.

Pay the fine, learn the lesson, and have a valid ticket in future.

Again yes i know, the point being is the system in skewed and biased as it stands

blue note

I think there's an app you can use op to tag on and off now. Might be useful for you and other tall people.

Hollister11

Silent Death wrote: »

Again yes i know, the point being is the system in skewed and biased as it stands

Biased against who ?

Those who don't have valid tickets.

Silent Death

blue note wrote: »

I think there's an app you can use op to tag on and off now. Might be useful for you and other tall people.

Haha there's an app for that. That would be neat. Could know balances etc on it

Silent Death

Hollister11 wrote: »

Biased against who ?

Those who don't have valid tickets.

Have a read back over the thread, biased against those who follow the rules and comply with inspectors vs those that dont and get away scott free

GBX

Silent Death wrote: »

Like i said, i dont think we will come to an agreement on this,m we have differing notions on an efficient system and a fair one

You are deeming it to be unfair because you got caught. It was fair before you woke up and started heading for the Luas.

Hollister11

Silent Death wrote: »

Have a read back over the thread, biased against those who follow the rules and comply with inspectors vs those that dont and get away scott free

But you didn't have a valid ticket. You didn't follow the rules. And you were fined.

I bet everyone on the luas with a valid ticket who DID follow the rules didn't get fined. Far from biased.