Season 7 - Speculation Thread - "Non book readers"

Sleepy

Or Dany's fleet on Dragonstone which is basically at the mouth of Blackwater Bay...

Though admitting that might call into question how two 1000+ ship fleets somehow managed not to spot each other in such a relatively small piece of open water...

CMOTDibbler

Sleepy wrote: »

Or Dany's fleet on Dragonstone which is basically at the mouth of Blackwater Bay...

Though admitting that might call into question how two 1000+ ship fleets somehow managed not to spot each other in such a relatively small piece of open water...

You could be right. The trailers showed a sea battle involving Yara and Theon. It's unlikely they would be anywhere else other than at Dragonstone unless they attacked Kings Landing.

They would have come from different directions though. Dany from across the Narrow Sea would probably have come at Dragonstone from the north whereas Euron would have sailed around Westeros coming into Blackwater Bay from the south.

GavRedKing

Dannys fleet has to suffer a major defeat or at least 1 dragon, maybe 2, have to go, otherwise shes far too overpowered and can steam roll any of the living houses at will.

wandatowell

GavRedKing wrote: »

Dannys fleet has to suffer a major defeat or at least 1 dragon, maybe 2, have to go, otherwise shes far too overpowered and can steam roll any of the living houses at will.

Hence an alliance between a weakened Danny and Jon Snow?

Makes sense to me.

CMOTDibbler

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You could be right. The trailers showed a sea battle involving Yara and Theon. It's unlikely they would be anywhere else other than at Dragonstone unless they attacked Kings Landing.

Actually in the trailer for Episode 2, Yara suggests an attack on KL.

GavRedKing

wandatowell wrote: »

Hence an alliance between a weakened Danny and Jon Snow?

Makes sense to me.

I think she has eyes only for the Iron Throne, Jon, having seen the white walkers north of the Wall, couldnt give a toss about it so unless he can convince her otherwise, there paths may only cross as Jon pleads for dragon glass to take on the white walkers.

seamus

I was thinking about the whole Dragonglass situation, and I would say that's going to be the primary dynamic in this season. Jon will know that he needs dragonglass to defeat the walkers, but that he Daenerys's help. While Jon's focus has shifted from "defending the north" to "defending the whole world", Daenerys is still in the "claiming back the throne" mode.

And Jon is the son of a man who led the rebellion against her father. With Bran now back in the north I wonder will that come full circle (Non-book spoiler from season 6 (?)

Bran is the only one who knows that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, i.e. the nephew of Daenerys. And the Targaryens do love them some incest

) and Jon and Daenerys will get married and unite the North and South.

BetsyEllen

seamus wrote: »

I was thinking about the whole Dragonglass situation, and I would say that's going to be the primary dynamic in this season. Jon will know that he needs dragonglass to defeat the walkers, but that he Daenerys's help. While Jon's focus has shifted from "defending the north" to "defending the whole world", Daenerys is still in the "claiming back the throne" mode.

And Jon is the son of a man who led the rebellion against her father. With Bran now back in the north I wonder will that come full circle (Non-book spoiler from season 6 (?)

Bran is the only one who knows that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, i.e. the nephew of Daenerys. And the Targaryens do love them some incest

) and Jon and Daenerys will get married and unite the North and South.

Did Rhaegar marry Lyanna or was she pregnant through rape?
Just wondering if Jon is still a bastard.

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CMOTDibbler

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You'd want to be the dumbest Stark ever born to not be able to do the maths there.

No matter what she whispered.

But the most obvious pointer to what Ned knew is how he treated Jon and how close-lipped he was about his parents. If Bran couldn't figure that out, then Westeros is doomed.

seamus

BetsyEllen wrote: »

Did Rhaegar marry Lyanna or was she pregnant through rape?
Just wondering if Jon is still a bastard.

I'm not sure how much is talking out of school here, but it's not revealing any spoilers.
Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, though Rhaegar was married to one of the Martells (Oberyn's sister, who was murdered by the Mountain).

Robert Baratheon was betrothed to Lyanna, so when she ran off with/was kidnapped by Rhaegar, that kind of kicked off the whole mess.

So yes, he is still a bastard.

BetsyEllen

seamus wrote: »

I'm not sure how much is talking out of school here, but it's not revealing any spoilers.
Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, though Rhaegar was married to one of the Martells (Oberyn's sister, who was murdered by the Mountain).

Robert Baratheon was betrothed to Lyanna, so when she ran off with/was kidnapped by Rhaegar, that kind of kicked off the whole mess.

So yes, he is still a bastard.

Thanks, I wasn't clear on the backstory

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CMOTDibbler

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Well it isn't just the maths, even though that's inescapable and wouldn't take a nanosecond to work out. The cut from Lyanna's baby's face to Jon Snow's should be confirmation enough.

But no, it certainly wasn't spelled out by somebody saying that Lyanna's baby is Jon Snow.

It kind of reminds me about the mad speculation that Stannis was still alive because we didn't see Brienne kill him.

Sleepy

seamus wrote: »

I'm not sure how much is talking out of school here, but it's not revealing any spoilers.
Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, though Rhaegar was married to one of the Martells (Oberyn's sister, who was murdered by the Mountain).

Robert Baratheon was betrothed to Lyanna, so when she ran off with/was kidnapped by Rhaegar, that kind of kicked off the whole mess.

So yes, he is still a bastard.

Is he?

Why bother to include the Targaryens practicing polygamy in the past (Aegon marrying both his sisters) if not to create a precedent for Rhaegar having done the same?

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CMOTDibbler

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That's the bit that's glaringly obvious. I mean:

1. Rhaegar made off with Lyanna, whether willingly or unwillingly, she went with him. That's been established many times throughout the series.
2. The only other possible father was Robert Baratheon, but there would be no need to keep that fact a secret from him. Or from Catelyn.
3. In fact any other father would be unlikely to cause Ned to lie to his own wife about Jon's parentage. Including the fact that he was Lyanna's son.
4. Only Targaryen parentage would require such a closely guarded secret to be kept.
5. The only reason to lie about Jon being Lyanna's son would be the obvious and fatal (to Jon) conclusion that Robert Baratheon would draw from that fact.
6. The Tower of Joy was being guarded by three of the Kingsguard, including Arthur Dayne. If it wasn't Rhaegar's child they were guarding, who's was it that would require such strong protection?

It doesn't need to be spelled out.

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alchemist33

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My wife thought Jon was Robert's son until we had a discussion after Monday's show. Whether I'd have known without here, I don't know.

CMOTDibbler

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So the Tower of Joy flashbacks just whooshed them?

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CMOTDibbler

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Surely that would have intrigued them more?

Billy86

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4:45 into this was pretty much beating us over the head with a stick about it I thought (it's from the episode, nothing extra included!). Not overly so, but just really driving it home.

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molloyjh

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As someone who hasn't read the book and very rarely partakes in discussion on the show outside my own circle of non-book friends I can confirm that I thought it was very, very obvious.

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alchemist33

Sleepy wrote: »

Though admitting that might call into question how two 1000+ ship fleets somehow managed not to spot each other in such a relatively small piece of open water...

A very good point. I noticed this when they showed a map on the after-show.

CMOTDibbler

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Anything I saw just had his first name. Not enough syllables for 'Targaryen' as well.

The only likely confirmations to come are from Bran, if he heard the whisper and from just 'knowing stuff' and the possibility of Howland Reed turning up if he's still alive. We're not going to get another Tower of Joy flashback.

Bran still has a long way to go to get to Winterfell and

Howland Reed has never even been cast, to the best of my knowledge

.

CMOTDibbler

alchemist33 wrote: »

A very good point. I noticed this when they showed a map on the after-show.

As I said above, they would have come from different directions. Also, the timeline is pretty much expressed by Cersei when she talks about Dany sailing for Westeros, but not having landed yet. Pretty much straight after that, Euron arrives and it's only at the end that we see Dany land at Dragonstone.

Plus it's surprising how short a distance it actually is to the horizon on this planet. Less than three miles at sea level.

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molloyjh

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We didn't see Hodor actually die. Is there any doubt that he is dead?

Not everything needs to be spelled out in big bright letters just to be 100% sure. In fact oftentimes when it is the show/film suffers as a result.

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molloyjh

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You'd need to ask them that. Maybe they didn't feel they needed to say it out loud? Maybe they thought the scene worked better that way?

HBO have 100% confirmed it so it's not as though they "hid" the name of the father to create any doubt. Rhaegar is Jons father.

I'm just saying that as someone who doesn't know the books or talk to anyone who does I found it obvious. Personally I think the scene is more powerful the way it is and that's probably why they did it that way. But if they were looking to cause doubt then nobody told HBO that. Which would lead me to believe that was not the reason for the whispering.

CMOTDibbler

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They only held back Jon's real name. Afair, closed captioning at the time had the rest of what she said in subtitles.

The obvious reason to hold it back is to create some interest in what his name actually is. The speculation at the time was huge and armies of lip readers tried to decipher it.

The best one I saw was 'Gary'

seamus

To be fair, they may not have even told the actors what it was and just told her to say "Gary Targaryen" so it looked like her lips were moving. Or she could have even just said, "His name is Targaryen".

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Feets

Here's another theory and correct me if it's not possible...could the Knight King be Dany's dad, back from the dead?

CMOTDibbler

Feets wrote: »

Here's another theory and correct me if it's not possible...could the Knight King be Dany's dad, back from the dead?

No.

He was killed in KL, not north of the wall.

Feets

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

No.

He was killed in KL, not north of the wall.

I was hoping that he would find dany and everyone would realise they were causing wars they didn't need to.

Loafing Oaf

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

No.

He was killed in KL, not north of the wall.

Plus, and I'm open to correction here, the white walkers themselves aren't zombies like their army....

dave3004

My theories after watching Ep 1.

- you never see Cersei sending that raven message that John read. I reckon it was Littlefinger trying to split him and Sansa. He knows John is concerned with the north and knows Sansa will want to cover the south.

- Yara and Theon wanna attack kings landing and Dany doesn't just yet. This means they sail into Euron and a battle ensues.

-Euron said he wants to marry the most beautiful woman. He's clearly talking about Dany, not Cersei. I think he will win the battle at sea as Theon and Yara have nothing left to offer the show. He will bring back Dany to Kings Landing without any interruption as Cersei will see Tyrion as the gift and welcome this guy back thinking he's marrying her.

- expecting Cersei to get double crossed by Euron. And reckon she will be killed. Either by Arya or Jamie. I'm hoping Jamie can be saved by Brienne if she travels south with Sansa or something. Otherwise I see the Lannister dying out. They've put all their eggs in a Greyjoy basket.

- I think the night king is Rhaegar. He has a crown so I'm assuming it's him. So at the end of Hardhome it's John and his dad staring at each other !!! Gives me goosebumps!!
Also the white walker that John killed had white hair. So reckon he was a Targaryen. Could be the mad king. Not sure how the Targaryens got north of the wall though.

- I think Littlefingers background will be a shock too. Reckon he's a blue blood or something.

- I'm tipping Thomund is first killed as has to man the castle from white walkers and Hound said he seen them coming so reckon it was at the place Thomund is.

Enough conjuncture for now.

Can someone please let me know why all my theories can't be true so I can clear my head of them

leggo

They showed the Night's King getting created by the Children Of The Forest in a previous flashback. It would've been thousands of years ago. The only character we know it could remotely have a chance of being is Bran.

CMOTDibbler

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Ah, so what you meant by confirmation in the show was really confirmation in the story.

maximoose

I get what ...... is saying and agree really, the whisper was a bit odd.

It's obvious to absolutely everybody that Lyanna is Jon's mother, no question. I don't think the same can be said (although I have no doubt he is) about Rhaegar being the father. The signs are all there and it was a long standing theory beforehand, but the show didn't outright confirm it and I've spoken to plenty of friends / colleagues who didn't make that connection.

CMOTDibbler

dave3004 wrote: »

My theories after watching Ep 1.

- you never see Cersei sending that raven message that John read. I reckon it was Littlefinger trying to split him and Sansa. He knows John is concerned with the north and knows Sansa will want to cover the south.

You hardly ever see anyone sending a raven. The message is hardly unexpected. It's only purpose in the show is to reveal that Jon's becoming king in the north is now widely known.

dave3004 wrote: »

- Yara and Theon wanna attack kings landing and Dany doesn't just yet. This means they sail into Euron and a battle ensues.

We really don't know if Dany wants to attack KL or not. The trailer doesn't show her saying anything on the subject.

dave3004 wrote: »

-Euron said he wants to marry the most beautiful woman. He's clearly talking about Dany, not Cersei. I think he will win the battle at sea as Theon and Yara have nothing left to offer the show. He will bring back Dany to Kings Landing without any interruption as Cersei will see Tyrion as the gift and welcome this guy back thinking he's marrying her.

Euron has never seen Dany. But he clearly means Cersei. Else why the two good hands comment?

dave3004 wrote: »

- expecting Cersei to get double crossed by Euron. And reckon she will be killed. Either by Arya or Jamie. I'm hoping Jamie can be saved by Brienne if she travels south with Sansa or something. Otherwise I see the Lannister dying out. They've put all their eggs in a Greyjoy basket.

Euron betraying Cersei makes no sense. He would be a smaller fish in Dany's forces, but a huge influence in Cersei's. Cersei holds the iron throne, helping her keep it would be much more beneficial to Euron.

dave3004 wrote: »

- I think the night king is Rhaegar. He has a crown so I'm assuming it's him. So at the end of Hardhome it's John and his dad staring at each other !!! Gives me goosebumps!!
Also the white walker that John killed had white hair. So reckon he was a Targaryen. Could be the mad king. Not sure how the Targaryens got north of the wall though.

The night king was created thousands of years ago by the children of the forest. Bran saw that in his dreams. We saw it too.

dave3004 wrote: »

- I think Littlefingers background will be a shock too. Reckon he's a blue blood or something.

It doesn't matter where Littlefinger came from, but what he is now.

dave3004 wrote: »

- I'm tipping Thomund is first killed as has to man the castle from white walkers and Hound said he seen them coming so reckon it was at the place Thomund is.

That looks likely. Brienne will be heartbroken.

molloyjh

maximoose wrote: »

I get what ...... is saying and agree really, the whisper was a bit odd.

It's obvious to absolutely everybody that Lyanna is Jon's mother, no question. I don't think the same can be said (although I have no doubt he is) about Rhaegar being the father. The signs are all there and it was a long standing theory beforehand, but the show didn't outright confirm it and I've spoken to plenty of friends / colleagues who didn't make that connection.

The whisper, IMO, was all about dramatic effect. There was nothing there that was being used to obfuscate or deceive. All the information was there. That some people didn't put the pieces together changes nothing. Like people didn't remember the father and daughter that The Hound buried the shows writers didn't feel the need to shout it from the rooftops. If you remembered then you got it, if you didn't then you didn't. People are reading between lines here when there's nothing there at all.

seamus

I have a feeling that some battle at some point is going to involve Brienne killing Jamie. And it will be more like a relief for Jamie than a defeat.

golfball37

maximoose wrote: »

I get what ...... is saying and agree really, the whisper was a bit odd.

It's obvious to absolutely everybody that Lyanna is Jon's mother, no question. I don't think the same can be said (although I have no doubt he is) about Rhaegar being the father. The signs are all there and it was a long standing theory beforehand, but the show didn't outright confirm it and I've spoken to plenty of friends / colleagues who didn't make that connection.

It's just not possible it could be anyone else as she didn't sleep with anyone else. Robert was her betrothed and in this world intimate relations wait until the wedding night. I don't know why we are even discussing the possibility that Jon isn't Rhaegars offspring tbh?