Season 7 - Speculation Thread - "Non book readers"

seamus

I wonder if the annulment bit is just a nod to the fans; a confirmation that Jon is the true King which will never be known to the world.

Although I was thinking - if Lyanna told Ned that Jon's name was "Targaryen", then that's confirmation that she and Rhaegar were married. Otherwise she would have called him "Sand".

So if Bran heard her say Targaryen, then Bran knows they were married.

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lazybones32

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Seems like the decks are being cleared for a final cataclysmic dead v living showdown next season, but are things ever that straightforward with this show? That Cersei bit about seeking a temporary truce with Daenerys has me thinking intra-living tensions might continue into season 8...

I've avoided spoilers and triailers for the show as best i could but i heard 1 from a cast member that there were going to be unlikely alliances this season. But Cersei is plotting to ambush D, if any meeting does occur.

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seamus

lazybones32 wrote: »

I've avoided spoilers and triailers for the show as best i could but i heard 1 from a cast member that there were going to be unlikely alliances this season. But Cersei is plotting to ambush D, if any meeting does occur.

I would be amazed if that worked out tbh. Tyrion has shown himself a little naive in the past when it comes to Jamie, but I think he knows enough about Cersei to never ever trust her.

CMOTDibbler

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Don't know about that. Sam's explanation to Gilly didn't sound like annullment by our meaning of the word, more like a divorce. "When a man sets aside his lawful wife" was his definition. So if she's his lawful wife, their children would still be his lawful heirs.

rawn

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I don't think it illegitamizies (i think i invented a word there) Rhaegars kids with Elia, as they were still married when they were conceived. It just puts Jon before Dany as the rightful heir.

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prawnsambo

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That would be fine except for Sam's explanation of what it meant: "When a man sets aside his lawful wife".

That sounds a lot more like divorce.

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EagererBeaver

Regardless of the line of succession, Jon would still be legitimate as the scion of a lawful marriage. Rhaegar's kids with Elia Martell are dead, so Jon is still the true heir.

prawnsambo

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Well yeah, but Gilly said it was done in secret, so I doubt that Elia would have known about it. But it was High Septon Maynard who did it, so that makes it about as official as it could possibly be.

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Penn

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I think the biggest impact it will have will be conflict between Jon and Dany. Everything Dany has done in the show has basically been because she thinks she's the rightful heir to the throne and the rightful Queen. Now Jon stepping in, whether he wants the throne or not, is going to diminish everything Dany has worked for and everything she's been through to get it. Even if Jon steps aside and lets her have it or keeps his true parentage a secret, she'll know she's not the rightful Queen.

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Nabber

At them moment the god of light is what I want to see play out.

I kept expecting him/her to show up in a hour of need, and I picture him/her as Sauron

KKkitty

After a lot of binge watching I'm finally up to speed with Game of Thrones. If Cersei is pregnant wouldn't it be ironic if especially with her incestuous relationship with Jaime that this child would turn out to be a dwarf like Tyrion or like her mother before her she dies giving birth.

Crea

I think Sansa has a bigger role to play.
She is still married to Tyrion is she not? Also, she is Jons first cousin so nothing to stop them for getting it on. To me that is more likely than him getting with Danarys.

A Primal Nut

Why does it matter anymore if Jon is a Targaryen and ahead of Daenerys in the line of succession? Nobody in Daenerys' entourage chose her because of her lineage. If anything her lineage worked against her early on because most people hated her father. Ex-slaves follow her because she freed them, Dothraki because of some of the the "magic" things they saw her do, Jorah Mormont because he's in love with her and Tyrion because he thinks she will make a good queen and because he hates Cersei. People follow her because she has dragons, because she has a huge army, she is likely to win the war, or because they think she will make a good queen, or at least a better one that Cersei. Not one person follows her because of her lineage which if anything worked against her early on because of how unpopular the Mad King was. The only person who cares about the line of succession is Daenerys herself, but there is zero chance she is going to step aside for Jon just because his lineage is revealed (she was happy for her brother to be killed in the first season). 
As for Jon, if he was still looked down upon as a bastard it would mean something for his real lineage to be revealed, but he has already been made King Of The North and is seen as a real Stark. If anything, the fact he is a Targaryan might work against him because the Mad King was so unpopular, especially in the north.
There isn't one person in the show for whom it would make sense for them to switch sides just because Jon is ahead of Daenerys in the line of succession because nobody cares about the line of succession apart from Daenerys herself, and maybe Melisandre who is mostly in Jon's corner anyway.
The only way I can see it mattering is if Daenerys gets paranoid and decides to kill Jon.
Or if Jon can control one of the dragons against Daenerys and win loyalty that way but given they grew up with her I don't see it.

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GavRedKing

Crea wrote: »

I think Sansa has a bigger role to play.
She is still married to Tyrion is she not? Also, she is Jons first cousin so nothing to stop them for getting it on. To me that is more likely than him getting with Danarys.

I cant see that happening at all TBH, although he might even shy away from Dany when its revealed who he really is.

KKkitty

Viserys treated Daenarys badly though. Brother or not I don't think she cared much for him. Jon may not have bended the knee to her but she does have some respect for him. She needs as many as she can behind her and so does Jon so they have to and will form an alliance with each other. The Lannisters have taken a lot from both of them. Cersei will probably go down as the Mad Queen after all of this. I would like Bran and Arya to team up against Littlefinger. Bran to tell Arya of all he's seen of Littlefinger and Arya to kill him with the dagger Littlefinger gave to Bran.

maudgonner

I really can't see Jon & Daenerys ending up in any kind of romantic relationship. They're Aunt & Nephew. That might be acceptable within the world of the show, but I don't think viewers would find the incest acceptable.

Sure we've seen Jamie & Cersei at it, but that's always been treated as something that's dodgy, and Cersei is a villain, Jamie is a flawed man and this is his biggest flaw.

To have the two biggest heroes of the show end up in a relationship that would be completely inappropriate by real-world standards? I can't see it happening.

I think Cersei is lying about her pregnancy. It will be the main motivation for Jaime to murder her.

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KKkitty

What's going to happen when Sam finds out his father and brother were killed by Daenarys? Will his mother make him come home to fight for his house? I hope not.

seamus

Sam is a sworn brother of the night's watch. He can't just come home and fight for his house. He never liked his father or brother, so something tells me he won't be too cut up about it. Though with the men out of the way it means that he could leave Gilly and the baby with his mother and sister - they believe the boy is Sam's son and therefore may be the heir to the Tarly house.

KKkitty

seamus wrote: »

Sam is a sworn brother of the night's watch. He can't just come home and fight for his house. He never liked his father or brother, so something tells me he won't be too cut up about it. Though with the men out of the way it means that he could leave Gilly and the baby with his mother and sister - they believe the boy is Sam's son and therefore may be the heir to the Tarly house.

I hated the way his father spoke to him. At least he has his mother and sister who seem more loving towards him.

bluesfan

EagererBeaver wrote:

Regardless of the line of succession, Jon would still be legitimate as the scion of a lawful marriage. Rhaegar's kids with Elia Martell are dead, so Jon is still the true heir.

The line of succession doesn't matter anymore though. After Roberts rebellion that line ended as Roberts began. It doesn't matter who the heir is, there's nothing there to inherit. The next King or Queen will have to win the crown in battle.

y0ssar1an22

bluesfan wrote: »

The line of succession doesn't matter anymore though. After Roberts rebellion that line ended as Roberts began. It doesn't matter who the heir is, there's nothing there to inherit. The next King or Queen will have to win the crown in battle.

would it matter that robert's rebellion was under false pretenses?

bluesfan

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

would it matter that robert's rebellion was under false pretenses?

All that matters is that it was successful.
The kidnapping (or what they believed was a kidnapping) was just the final straw against the mad king. The reason so many joined the rebellion was because there was already plenty who resented the Targaryens. It was only a matter of time before someone started a rebellion.

Cantona's Collars

So....which country will show next weeks episode tonight? They managed not to last night.

Doola

Jon will kill the Night King but sacrifice himself in the process. Dany consumed by grief (at this stage having taken the Iron Throne) will let her guard down and be killed suddenly & shockingly by Cersei, who is immediately incinerated by Drogon.

Ayra, having left Winterfell to persue her kill-list will be left for dead by the Hound in a reversal of roles. She will die.
The Hound, feeling guilty will go to Winterfell and proclaim loyalty to Sansa, still the Lady of Winterfell and Queen of the North.

Tyrion will assume the Iron Throne after Dany's murder and will proceed to break the wheel forming an alliance of the 7 kingdoms with a council/democracy of rulers.

Yea.....probably not, but still....

lazybones32

Am not sure whether Cersei will have a trap set for the meeting, she said she would ...if she were to kill Daeny, who would command the dragons to incinerate KL? Be reminded, boring old bran flakes only knows who else is Targ.

If any sort of trap is used, surely that must mean the end of tyrion as Hand...all his advice has been wrong so far. He was the one pressing for this pow-wow too.

alchemist33

Something I hope really won't happen but was hinted at by Jorah - if the Night King is killed all the wights and maybe the other white walkers will die too. I've seen this many times in fantasy and science fiction and it's the laziest of writing.

lazybones32

alchemist33 wrote: »

Something I hope really won't happen but was hinted at by Jorah - if the Night King is killed all the wights and maybe the other white walkers will die too. I've seen this many times in fantasy and science fiction and it's the laziest of writing.

Not really though...the wights were reanimated by NK's power and it is his power that is keeping them...alive? If he were to die, the magic that keeps the wights active would cease and they'd return to being corpses. Now, if it turns out that the NK is challenged to one on one combat, when he has 10,000 wights awound him, then yeah, that would be lazy ...and stupid. But we'd still watch the episode after.
My guess is that the NK saga isn't the main storyline, so that'll be concluded by ep 5 next S at latest; maybe not with him dying but defeated and forced to retreat.

seamus

alchemist33 wrote: »

Something I hope really won't happen but was hinted at by Jorah - if the Night King is killed all the wights and maybe the other white walkers will die too. I've seen this many times in fantasy and science fiction and it's the laziest of writing.

It is consistent though; it's all magic holding it all together, so it makes sense that the death of a white walker would end his magic.

That said it would be far too "victory achieved" nonsense if killing the NK destroyed all of the wights and white walkers.

I don't know if they will now go meet with Cersei. Seems a bit redundant. Though whatever happens, even if Cersei believes in the walkers, she will still have her eyes on the throne and scheme to kill Dany, Tyrion and Jon.

Since they're on a boat and not flying, I expect they're heading towards Winterfell, whereby Jon will find out that he is in fact Targaryen and not Stark. Which will create a dilemma for the Northmen - they've already declared him King in the North, but he's come back to them saying that Dany is now Queen, and on top of that it turns out he's a Targaryen.
Will they turn to Sansa for leadership, will they be loyal to Dany, or will they just leave?

TerrorFirmer

In the shorter term I expect that Cersei will have the breathing space to hire the Golden Company and construct a huge number of bolt launchers to defend against the dragons.

In the longer term I feel that Cersei will end up killing Daeny and Jon will still chose not to sit on the throne, and will declare himself a Stark now and forever more, perhaps Gendry will take the position.

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charlieIRL

I posted this in the episode thread but think it might be better suited here:

Few theories I have after watching last few episodes and especially this one.

The Waif killed Ayra in the house of Black & White and took her face. She's continuing on killing as per Ayra's list. So nobody is safe from her.

John Snow being brought back from the dead, he's like a living white walker now, wasn't it his mad idea to go north of the wall? And not killed when surrounded on the lake? This was to get a dragon to the Night King.

The Night King can use his new ice breathing dragon (presumably) to freeze the sea at Eastwatch?

Also, John Snow's got everyone together in one place as per the trailed for final episode. All the major players, perfect spot for the Night King to kill them all??

Vojera

charlieIRL wrote: »

The Waif killed Ayra in the house of Black & White and took her face. She's continuing on killing as per Ayra's list. So nobody is safe from her.

Why would the Waif give a bollocks about Arya's list, though? It means nothing to her.

maudgonner

Didn't we see the waif's face in the Hall of Faces after Arya left though?

Bacchus

charlieIRL wrote: »

I posted this in the episode thread but think it might be better suited here:

Few theories I have after watching last few episodes and especially this one.

The Waif killed Ayra in the house of Black & White and took her face. She's continuing on killing as per Ayra's list. So nobody is safe from her.

John Snow being brought back from the dead, he's like a living white walker now, wasn't it his mad idea to go north of the wall? And not killed when surrounded on the lake? This was to get a dragon to the Night King.

The Night King can use his new ice breathing dragon (presumably) to freeze the sea at Eastwatch?

Also, John Snow's got everyone together in one place as per the trailed for final episode. All the major players, perfect spot for the Night King to kill them all??

They're all fairly out there as far as theories go...

The waif doesn't make sense to me for two reasons... 1) It's not interesting. Why would anyone care about the waif. It'd just be mildly confusing and sort of ends Ayra's story with a whimper. 2) We've seen Ayra up close on her own and seeing how she behaves. It's Ayra. Why would the waif struggle with the choice between Kingslanding and Winterfell? Why would she care so much about the kill list? Why the struggle with how she feels about Sansa?

I really doubt Jon is working with the Knight King. Nothing he has done suggests that he is.

Loafing Oaf

Bacchus wrote: »

They're all fairly out there as far as theories go...

The waif doesn't make sense to me for two reasons... 1) It's not interesting. Why would anyone care about the waif. It'd just be mildly confusing and sort of ends Ayra's story with a whimper. 2) We've seen Ayra up close on her own and seeing how she behaves. It's Ayra. Why would the waif struggle with the choice between Kingslanding and Winterfell? Why would she care so much about the kill list? Why the struggle with how she feels about Sansa?

I really doubt Jon is working with the Knight King. Nothing he has done suggests that he is.

Yeah I know GoT is renowned for subverting conventional narrative arcs but they've never fcuked with our expectations to this extent and I can't see them doing it now.

charlieIRL

Vojera wrote: »

Why would the Waif give a bollocks about Arya's list, though? It means nothing to her.

She's a trained assassin isn't she? And Ayra's character, I know has progressed, is extremely bad ass now. Not like before. Even with the hound.

charlieIRL

Bacchus wrote: »

They're all fairly out there as far as theories go...

I really doubt Jon is working with the Knight King. Nothing he has done suggests that he is.

Just a theory!

Still think about it - to go north of the wall to capture a wight, against a huge army of the dead, with only 7 odd men? And to bring a wight to try convince Cersei to fight with her enemy's against a folk tale??

He delivered a dragon to the Night King!

rossie1977

Killing the night king is going to be extremely difficult one would assume. It's already been shown he is immune to fire even dragon fire which he just walked through last episode. I can't see dragon glass killing him either as that created him.

There is a theory online that the night king is bran which does make some sense when you see his interactions with Jon

Penn

charlieIRL wrote: »

She's a trained assassin isn't she? And Ayra's character, I know has progressed, is extremely bad ass now. Not like before. Even with the hound.

Arya is a trained assassin too. She trained with The Waif, and in the scenes we saw of them training, we saw her improve and even come close to beating The Waif. She then lured The Waif into a trap and we saw her put The Waif's face in the Hall of Faces. Arya spent probably a year in the House of Black and White training, we only saw very small glimpses of it.

Nymeria was also able to sense that it was Arya despite not having seen Arya in many years.

If it actually turns out to be The Waif, that'll be the point where I definitely start condemning the show. That would be awful and nonsensical, and a twist done for the sake of it rather than story. We've seen no reason why The Waif would then take up Arya's mission, how she'd know Hot Pie, how Nymeria would recognise her, how Bran wouldn't be able to tell the difference given his abilities.

seamus

The Waif/Arya thing is not a credible theory. It would make no sense and serve no purpose - she has no real backstory, no motive.

lazybones32

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Given 2 recent scenes - the Hound burying and saying a few words over the dead man and his daughter in the shack they sheltered in and how he attempted to say a few words over Thoros, plus his lifelong fear of fire, highlighted yet again with the burning dead bear, AND that he has pointedly told Beric that he (Beric) is on his last life..... (stay with me here!)......

I think Beric will die again and the Lord of Light will work through the Hound and bring him back.

The Hound will be astounded and none too happy that fire magic is working through him.

But this is how he will be able to defeat the Mountain.

I thought he was going to pray over thoros but he just took his wineskin. Hound started drinking it, Jon took it off him and poured the booze over thoros before beric set him alight. Beric was praying for thoros, not hound.