DB Pay Rises sought

Cookie_Monster

Will keep this out of the older Luas thread(s)

DB drives seeking 30% pay rises to keep parity with Tram drivers

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/dublin-bus-staff-want-30pc-pay-hike-34835823.html

They are seeking the 18.2pc pay increase won by the Luas drivers, and another 12pc which represented pay increases given to the tram drivers in recent years.

and just in case you thought they were having a laugh:

He added that drivers expect their pay claims to be taken seriously without having to resort to industrial action - but they have not ruled it out.

my emphasis

I would assume we can expect BE to follow suit as well on the back of this?

LXFlyer

Even allowing for the LUAS pay deal, there were always going to be pay negotiations in the CIE Group as the current deals ran their course.

LuckyLloyd

Yes a negotiation was overdue. Crossing my fingers that the opening offer from management is decent and industrial action is avoided.

Kyleboy

Management have made two offers that were rejected out of hand, so there is a meeting at the Labour courts on Wednesday.

the groutch

shooting themselves in the foot with demands like that.
all it will mean is that a double digit fare increase will be needed to pay for it, and will drive away all their customers, leading to job losses a few years down the road.

eeguy

the groutch wrote: »

shooting themselves in the foot with demands like that.
all it will mean is that a double digit fare increase will be needed to pay for it, and will drive away all their customers, leading to job losses a few years down the road.

A fare hike will hopefully put more people on the bike.

Can't believe how expensive the bus is now.

I remember getting a €1.55 ticket from town to Coolock in 07.

Same ticket is €2.70 now.

punisher5112

the groutch wrote: »

shooting themselves in the foot with demands like that.
all it will mean is that a double digit fare increase will be needed to pay for it, and will drive away all their customers, leading to job losses a few years down the road.

None of what you write in the post makes sense or is going to happen.

Fare is out of db hands and is put in by nta.


Db drivers should get more then a luas driver.

Reasons why here are a few examples
Bus has to go anywhere and everywhere and has no closed off sections like a tram.
Driver has to deal with passengers, traffic many other types of road users fares none compliant passengers threats among lots and lots of other things.

Luas driver pulls a lever and goes doesn't have to deal with anyone at all. They are locked in a cab and are left to themselves and of course don't have stupid comments or questions about any random rubbish some come up with and also don't even interact with other road users as they are in a glass bubble with no window openings.

I could go on all day.

LXFlyer

eeguy wrote: »

A fare hike will hopefully put more people on the bike.

Can't believe how expensive the bus is now.

I remember getting a €1.55 ticket from town to Coolock in 07.

Same ticket is €2.70 now.

And only €2.05 using LEAP.
You have to remember that cash fares have been increased deliberately at a much higher percentage to encourage people to switch to using LEAP.

eeguy

I know, but leap is still a pain in the ass for those who don't use public transport often.

LXFlyer

eeguy wrote: »

I know, but leap is still a pain in the ass for those who don't use public transport often.

Why?

Just get a card and keep it in your wallet, and set up auto top up.

Ultimately if you want to be daft enough to pay a significantly higher cash fare, that's up to you, but a much cheaper option is available.

You can't have it both ways.

Any comparison of fares between times past and now should be with the current LEAP fare as that's the standard these days.

_Kaiser_

lxflyer wrote: »

Why?

Just get a card and keep it in your wallet, and set up auto top up.

Ultimately if you want to be daft enough to pay a significantly higher cash fare, that's up to you, but a much cheaper option is available.

You can't have it both ways.

Any comparison of fares between times past and now should be with the current LEAP fare as that's the standard these days.

You're missing the point... Just because the increase is a bit less on LEAP is irrelevant.

The same journey now costs significantly more for no real benefit to the passenger or real improvement to the service. You'll no doubt cite things like Wi-Fi on buses, RTPI and so on but the former is a nice to have (given the choice between cheap swift and reliable bus services and free internet I think we all know what passengers would choose) and the latter is notoriously unreliable if posts on this forum are any indication.


Anyway, on the OP... 30% isn't going to happen anyway and I still fail to understand why these staff members seem to think they're entitled to such amounts. If I want that kind of money my choice is either to upskill/take on additional tasks and earn it, or find the door for somewhere that will give me what I want. Why should bus/tram drivers be any different?

LXFlyer

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You're missing the point... Just because the increase is a bit less on LEAP is irrelevant.

The same journey now costs significantly more for no real benefit to the passenger or real improvement to the service. You'll no doubt cite things like Wi-Fi on buses, RTPI and so on but the former is a nice to have (given the choice between cheap swift and reliable bus services and free internet I think we all know what passengers would choose) and the latter is notoriously unreliable if posts on this forum are any indication.


Anyway, on the OP... 30% isn't going to happen anyway and I still fail to understand why these staff members seem to think they're entitled to such amounts. If I want that kind of money my choice is either to upskill/take on additional tasks and earn it, or find the door for somewhere that will give me what I want. Why should bus/tram drivers be any different?

No I'm not missing the point. The post to which I replied was comparing fares. Nothing else.

LEAP fares are a minimum of 20% cheaper than cash - in this particular case it's over 24%. That's a lot more than a "bit less".

You cannot do a comparison between cash fares now and cash fares ten years ago. It's not a level playing field as the cash fares are now artificially inflated. It's like the Brexit argument that it was costing the UK €350m a week when it was actually much less.

If you don't see RTPI as being a key feature of operating a bus service then I fear you're sadly mistaken. Given the volume of buses operated every day for which people don't complain, I don't actually accept that it is notoriously unreliable. Yes it has faults, some of which are unavoidable, but in general it works. As someone who has required a minimum of two buses each way to get to/from work every day for the past 6 years, it's invaluable for me to plan my trip and decide whether to use one route or another. 95% of the time it works for me.

I'm not sure quite what improvements would necessarily be delivered for the cost of the wifi either. It certainly wouldn't be anything significant.

I'm fully aware of your views on the bus service, but I seem to recall that most of the journeys that you're basing your opinion on being either orbital or certainly unusual - both of which are very difficult for a bus network to deliver given the generally unique nature of such individual trips (very few people making the exact same trip).

There are at last some improvements happening with be fleet being expanded again but that costs a hell of a lot more than providing wifi. That kind of money hasn't been available sadly - the bus service is constrained by the availability of public cash to invest in the fleet and the service - that's been virtually zilch until recent times, and certainly nowhere near the amounts required to deliver real service improvements.

jimmycrackcorm

Cookie_Monster wrote:

DB drives seeking 30% pay rises to keep parity with Tram drivers

I'm totally fine with this. Of course they should first switch from being part of a publicly owned company to a tendered private sector company. Because that's part and parcel of the parity...

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

And only €2.05 using LEAP.
You have to remember that cash fares have been increased deliberately at a much higher percentage to encourage people to switch to using LEAP.

still a 32% fare increase against a cumulative 8% or so inflation over the same period, which is still way above odds for a service that continues to be substandard in many ways.

punisher5112 wrote:

Fare is out of db hands and is put in by nta.

To simply say the NTA control the fares and DB have to live with that is a bit naive. If pay rates go up 30%, or 20 or 10 or whatever DB are going to apply to up fares to compensate. The NTA are hardly going to say no going on past increases granted now are they?

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

still a 32% fare increase against a cumulative 8% or so inflation over the same period, which is still way above odds for a service that continues to be substandard in many ways.

It's not as simple as that though. You also have to remember that there was a conscious decision by government to switch more of the burden of the cost of running the service onto passengers while subsidy levels were reduced (aside from reducing in line with service cutbacks), particularly onto season ticket holders.

That being said this is going to be a significant challenge for the operating companies. Pay restraint took far too long to be introduced and the notion that it should suddenly be restored while retained losses are still not recouped was (and is) daft, and any pay increase that is awarded now is going to have to be one that is affordable by the companies while not impacting on passengers.

trellheim

and any pay increase that is awarded now is going to have to be one that is affordable by the companies while not impacting on passengers.

I doubt the unions will see it in that way. Given what we saw in the Transdev dispute, L'Oreal-type negotiations will take precedence.

eeguy

lxflyer wrote: »

Any comparison of fares between times past and now should be with the current LEAP fare as that's the standard these days.

I was comparing a cash fare to a cash fare. I thought the comparison was valid. Sure I could compare a 10 trip ticket or a tax saver ticket and the comparison is not valid, so neither is a Leap, since it requires you to sign up to a scheme before even getting on the bus.

The DB drivers will get their raise, same as they have in the past, and to be honest, I understand they have a fairly sh*tty job and the conditions can be tough on some routes.

I don't think you can draw the same comparison between driving a bus and a Luas, considering their job has actually gotten tougher negotiating all the roadworks and traffic detours that have sprung up in the last 6 months.

markpb

eeguy wrote: »

I was comparing a cash fare to a cash fare.

You're comparing it to a cash fare when has deliberately inflated to encourage people not to use cash. Yes it's higher, that's the whole point. It's meant to be high. You're meant to look at it and think: geez, that's a bit high, I wonder if there's an alternative like a prepaid card that I could use instead.

LXFlyer

eeguy wrote: »

I was comparing a cash fare to a cash fare. I thought the comparison was valid. Sure I could compare a 10 trip ticket or a tax saver ticket and the comparison is not valid, so neither is a Leap, since it requires you to sign up to a scheme before even getting on the bus.

Oh come on - LEAP is completely different to those products and actually you don't have to sign up to anything - you can simply buy one in a shop or at a LUAS/Irish Rail ticket machine and use it straight away.

Trying to compare a cash fare nowadays that has been increased at an artificially high rate deliberately to encourage people to migrate to LEAP, with fares ten years ago, and start complaining about how expensive they are now is pointless, when a significantly cheaper option exists. No one is forcing you to pay cash. You're just refusing to avail of cheaper options.

But if you're pig headed enough not to see the benefits of using a LEAP card, then fire away, complain all you like, but the fact is that using the bus does not have to be as expensive as you suggest it is, and LEAP is becoming more popular than cash.

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

I doubt the unions will see it in that way. Given what we saw in the Transdev dispute, L'Oreal-type negotiations will take precedence.

I was thinking more in terms of the future impact from a fares perspective - any wage increase is going to have to be one that the companies can afford without it driving fares upwards - given the changing nature of the PSO contracts this is going to become more relevant.

luckybag

If unsatisfactory result Thursday, it will be followed by a work to rule.
Expect travel chaos, the public have no idea how much DB driver do above and beyond what they are supposed to do.
In fact a work to rule will be more problematic for the public than a strike, with a strike you know the bus is not running and can make plans, with a work to rule, any bus, any time might not run.

LXFlyer

luckybag wrote: »

If unsatisfactory result Thursday, it will be followed by a work to rule.
Expect travel chaos, the public have no idea how much DB driver do above and beyond what they are supposed to do.
In fact a work to rule will be more problematic for the public than a strike, with a strike you know the bus is not running and can make plans, with a work to rule, any bus, any time might not run.

Ah the perennial brand new account of a Dublin Bus staff member during any major IR talks has arrived talking doom and gloom to all. Welcome.

It's so predictable - every time!!

Fattes

In the real world, any wage increase, will see an increase in fares as operating costs increase and DB will seek and get approved a fare increase. The cost of fares and schedules are a big reason I dont use DB anymore. For example there is a bus stop 3 meters from my front door with a direct service to the city! It takes approx anywhere from 30- 40 minutes depending wiht a return cost of 8.20 with leap 10.80 without for a couple.

I can drive to the city and park in 20-25 min, my daily parking can be done for 8-12 euro and I have more flexibility!

LXFlyer

Fattes wrote: »

In the real world, any wage increase, will see an increase in fares as operating costs increase and DB will seek and get approved a fare increase. The cost of fares and schedules are a big reason I dont use DB anymore. For example there is a bus stop 3 meters from my front door with a direct service to the city! It takes approx anywhere from 30- 40 minutes depending wiht a return cost of 8.20 with leap 10.80 without for a couple.

I can drive to the city and park in 20-25 min, my daily parking can be done for 8-12 euro and I have more flexibility!

What Dublin Bus route costs €4.10 for a single journey on LEAP?

There is no such fare.

Penny Tration

lxflyer wrote: »

What Dublin Bus route costs €4.10 for a single journey on LEAP?

There is no such fare.

He said "for a couple," €2.05 on leap each way I assume

Fattes

lxflyer wrote: »

What Dublin Bus route costs €4.10 for a single journey on LEAP?

There is no such fare.

2.05 per person or 4.10 PER COUPLE

punisher5112

Fattes wrote: »

2.05 per person or 4.10 PER COUPLE

Starting my car costs more then that.

Thats even before you take into account a licence, Insurance,tax,nct, maintenance and so on.

Costs for running a bus are huge.

Fattes

punisher5112 wrote: »

Starting my car costs more then that.

Thats even before you take into account a licence, Insurance,tax,nct, maintenance and so on.

Costs for running a bus are huge.

Might want to get a mechanic to look at your car so, if you use a litre of fuel to start it!

Vic_08

Fattes wrote: »

Might want to get a mechanic to look at your car so, if you use a litre of fuel to start it!

Ah, yes. The Magic car that was free to purchase, has a zero tax rate, free insurance and runs forever with no maintenance.

Fattes

Vic_08 wrote: »

Ah, yes. The Magic car that was free to purchase, has a zero tax rate, free insurance and runs forever with no maintenance.

And magically operates to my timetable, is always there when it should be, can deviate it's route when it needs and operates at all hours and beyond the limits of the pale.

15 people in Dublin Bus make more than 100,000 per annum, bus drivers get paid more than graduate nurses with 4 years college education.

But I guess you are right DB fares are reasonable value for money, and it's lack of punctuality is not an issue at all

Cookie_Monster

Vic_08 wrote: »

Ah, yes. The Magic car that was free to purchase, has a zero tax rate, free insurance and runs forever with no maintenance.

all sunk costs which would be incurred by the poster anyway. fuel, parking and a very small maintenance per km is the only applicable cost for comparison

_Kaiser_

Ultimately it comes down to this.. if you don't like your job, the wages, the hours, the conditions, the benefits etc.. certainly ask but if not forthcoming, leave and find something that will give you what you want!

The nonsensical idea that people should get wage increases "just cause", or because "them over there got more money" just smacks of ridiculous entitlement from a workforce that thinks it's special. It's bus driving not brain surgery. Sure there's the traffic and the antisocial element (both real concerns yes) but in the end, no-one is FORCING them to do the job either. They could try some of the private operators, maybe BE or the long distance companies, or maybe something completely different!

DB (in theory anyway) is there to provide a public city bus service at an affordable cost and at a dependable service level. It's not meant to be (and shouldn't be) some sort of job scheme. If they think LUAS drivers have a better deal then let them apply to be LUAS drivers. Threatening disruption if they don't get their way is like a child throwing a tantrum and it'll only alienate even more passengers (who are paying these wages) who will then find alternative transport themselves. In short it's a self-defeating exercise that won't win them any support (either from the public or Government).

ted1

lxflyer wrote: »

Why?

Just get a card and keep it in your wallet, and set up auto top up.

Ultimately if you want to be daft enough to pay a significantly higher cash fare, that's up to you, but a much cheaper option is available.

You can't have it both ways.

Any comparison of fares between times past and now should be with the current LEAP fare as that's the standard these days.

What about people in Dublin for a short while ? That 2.70 is more often 3 euro as they don't give change

LXFlyer

ted1 wrote: »

What about people in Dublin for a short while ? That 2.70 is more often 3 euro as they don't give change

Well they either buy a LEAP card, use it and claim the refundable deposit back, or use a visitor LEAP card, or they take the hit.

How do people cope in London where there is no cash on buses at all? Answer - they must get an Oyster card.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

all sunk costs which would be incurred by the poster anyway. fuel, parking and a very small maintenance per km is the only applicable cost for comparison

Not necessarily - I don't possess a car. I know quite a few people in the same boat. People don't always have a car by necessity.

Therefore all those items could well be an opportunity cost.

Fattes

lxflyer wrote: »

Not necessarily - I don't possess a car. I know quite a few people in the same boat. People don't always have a car by necessity.

Therefore all those items could well be an opportunity cost.

No opportunity cost if you have and need a car. A large % of the population do have private transport. Dublin is the only city I have lived where I feel I need private transport. Zurich, Boston, London, Berlin. I never needed or wanted a car.

LXFlyer

Fattes wrote: »

No opportunity cost if you have and need a car. A large % of the population do have private transport. Dublin is the only city I have lived where I feel I need private transport. Zurich, Boston, London, Berlin. I never needed or wanted a car.

I did clearly state that they were opportunity costs for anyone who did not need to have a car - and I happen to know quite a few people in that situation.

The other poster seemed to be making a blanket assumption that everyone needs to have a car in Dublin.

Fattes

lxflyer wrote: »

I did clearly state that they were opportunity costs for anyone who did not need to have a car - and I happen to know quite a few people in that situation.

The other poster seemed to be making a blanket assumption that everyone needs to have a car in Dublin.

No its based on the fact that the vast majority of people in Ireland, have access to a vehicle and ownership is highest in the Dublin area, & other transport options. How that impacts DB cost and the decisions people make when deciding, on options to travel in Dublin. Increased costs as a result of a high wage rise will lead to a number of scenarios. Those in the inner city between the canals where car ownership is lowest, are likely to avail of other forms of transport over Dublin bus if cost rise. Those in the suburbs where car ownership is higher are more likely to use that option if fares increase.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

I did clearly state that they were opportunity costs for anyone who did not need to have a car - and I happen to know quite a few people in that situation.

and for that minority using the bus iss clearly the obvious option, though cycling would be a nicer and probably quicker option for most people too. I used to do Killiney to Donnybrook faster than the 7 or 7B could manage

lxflyer wrote: »

The other poster seemed to be making a blanket assumption that everyone needs to have a car in Dublin.

who, me? certainly not.

howiya

luckybag wrote: »

If unsatisfactory result Thursday, it will be followed by a work to rule.
Expect travel chaos, the public have no idea how much DB driver do above and beyond what they are supposed to do.
In fact a work to rule will be more problematic for the public than a strike, with a strike you know the bus is not running and can make plans, with a work to rule, any bus, any time might not run.

a work to rule must already be in place so. this is a regular occurrence on routes I use

Kyleboy

howiya wrote: »

a work to rule must already be in place so. this is a regular occurrence on routes I use

No work to rule on any routes yet, as soon as the pay offer is rejected the work to rule will begin

thomasj

The payrises may be last thing on the mind of a couple of broadstone drivers come tomorrow...

howiya

Kyleboy wrote: »

No work to rule on any routes yet, as soon as the pay offer is rejected the work to rule will begin

How will I notice the difference?

Kyleboy

howiya wrote: »

How will I notice the difference?

Your bus won't show up

howiya

Kyleboy wrote: »

Your bus won't show up

No difference really so

L1011

Vic_08 wrote: »

Ah, yes. The Magic car that was free to purchase, has a zero tax rate, free insurance and runs forever with no maintenance.

I'm from The Absolute Sticks - despite living in a commuter suburb, I own a car for the purpose of getting home occasionally. Bought new 8 years ago and coincidentally probably reached its bottom value about 2 years ago as its obscure enough to retain value; so only maintenance costs exist at all. Even if I take public transport to work every day as I have done in the recent past and currently do, the opportunity cost of the car is basically non-existent.

This creates a situation where, if I'm attending an event in the city that's less than a few hours (or any length at weekends when on-street parking is often free), its cheaper to drive in than take any form of public transport.

DB fares aren't the biggest problem, though. IR fares are obscene for the service they provide when compared to the baseline of Irish fares - comparing to UK commuter ones is inevitable done when this is mentioned but you find overcrowded half-hourly services at peak compared to 5 minute frequencies and so on.

Kyleboy

howiya wrote: »

No difference really so

If you say so.

punisher5112

L1011 wrote: »

I'm from The Absolute Sticks - despite living in a commuter suburb, I own a car for the purpose of getting home occasionally. Bought new 8 years ago and coincidentally probably reached its bottom value about 2 years ago as its obscure enough to retain value; so only maintenance costs exist at all. Even if I take public transport to work every day as I have done in the recent past and currently do, the opportunity cost of the car is basically non-existent.

This creates a situation where, if I'm attending an event in the city that's less than a few hours (or any length at weekends when on-street parking is often free), its cheaper to drive in than take any form of public transport.

DB fares aren't the biggest problem, though. IR fares are obscene for the service they provide when compared to the baseline of Irish fares - comparing to UK commuter ones is inevitable done when this is mentioned but you find overcrowded half-hourly services at peak compared to 5 minute frequencies and so on.

How are you running a car free?

Cost of fuel, tax, insurance,nct and maintenance tyres etc.

Bus travel isn't at outrages prices and I'm not really getting the ir argument as train fares are very high in the UK

L1011

punisher5112 wrote: »

How are you running a car free?

Cost of fuel, tax, insurance,nct and maintenance tyres etc.

Bus travel isn't at outrages prices and I'm not really getting the ir argument as train fares are very high in the UK

Tax/insurance/nct are fully covered by owning the damn thing for other purposes, as I explained if you read my post properly which you clearly didn't.

All that is used is fuel use and marginal maintenance costs. Still cheaper than PT fares; and if I have passengers the calculation gets even more ridiculous.

I also said - if you'd read my post properly, which you clearly didn't - that comparing the utter crap we're served here to far superior UK services is not valid.

Please read posts properly before bashing out replies.

lxflyer wrote: »

How do people cope in London where there is no cash on buses at all? Answer - they must get an Oyster card.

No, they can use a contactless debit card which basically everyone bar Americans already have. A proper system was brought in rather than the fudge here.

howiya

Kyleboy wrote: »

If you say so.

You've said buses won't turn up if there is a work to rule. I've pointed out that buses not turning up is a regular occurrence anyway. Another poster has started a thread about the unreliability of buses today. The Dublin Bus Twitter account is full of tweets responding to people looking for missing buses.

So it's not just if I say so

Kyleboy

howiya wrote: »

You've said buses won't turn up if there is a work to rule. I've pointed out that buses not turning up is a regular occurrence anyway. Another poster has started a thread about the unreliability of buses today. The Dublin Bus Twitter account is full of tweets responding to people looking for missing buses.

So it's not just if I say so

OK sorry, you and your mates so.