DB Pay Rises sought

howiya

Kyleboy wrote: »

OK sorry, you and your mates so.

Great argument

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

No, they can use a contactless debit card which basically everyone bar Americans already have. A proper system was brought in rather than the fudge here.

For that to happen here, contactless cards would have to be the norm.

At least one major bank has yet to roll them out in Ireland.

Non-UK visitors to London using contactless cards face additional charges for every day that they use them, that can be avoided by using an Oyster card.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

For that to happen here, contactless cards would have to be the norm.

At least one major bank has yet to roll them out in Ireland.

Non-UK visitors to London using contactless cards face additional charges for every day that they use them, that can be avoided by using an Oyster card.

Still means your "must" was inaccurate

Kyleboy

howiya wrote: »

Great argument

Thanks

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

Still means your "must" was inaccurate

Well if we are getting into point scoring semantics, then I humbly apologise. They "should" get an Oyster card.

Using a foreign based contactless bank card would, as I mentioned above, incur extra unnecessary bank charges per day.

The ability to use contactless bank cards in London was introduced long after Oyster had successfully bedded in, and the buses only went cashless after the contactless bank card facilty was rolled out successfully.

We're only getting to the point where LEAP is becoming the norm now - we've still some way to go.

The NTA have already indicated that they plan to go down the contactless bank card route, but as I already mentioned, it won't become the norm for anytime yet due to contactless cards not even started to be rolled out by one of the three major clearing banks.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

Well if we are getting into point scoring semantics, then I humbly apologise. They "should" get an Oyster card.

Correcting a clanging error is not "points scoring". You made a completely untrue claim.

Every feature of Leap including the introduction of the card itself has been unacceptably late. Trying to blame the banks for the decision to write a system from scratch rather than buying a mature off the shelf one doesn't wash.

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

Correcting a clanging error is not "points scoring". You made a completely untrue claim.

Every feature of Leap including the introduction of the card itself has been unacceptably late. Trying to blame the banks for the decision to write a system from scratch rather than buying a mature off the shelf one doesn't wash.

Ok, I should have used "should", it was an unintended mistake on my part, rather a deliberate clanging error/completely untrue claim. There's no need to be so agressive about it. I am human!

However, I don't think that the actual rollout has been late - once contracts were awarded it has been rolled out in a phased basis pretty much as the NTA planned it.

Prior to the contracts being awarded I'd agree, there were indeed all sorts of unnacceptable delays due to arguments over funding primarily that was down to politics and turf wars.

I'm not blaming the banks for anything - I'm just saying that the introduction of contactless cards here is less practical due to the fact that at least one bank hasn't even started rolling them out!

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

The NTA have already indicated that they plan to go down the contactless bank card route, but as I already mentioned, it won't become the norm for anytime yet due to contactless cards not even started to be rolled out by one of the three major clearing banks.

OT but I find that ridiculous, contact less is already old hat and being replaced by your smart phone being bank card enabled over here!
Get with the times already banks.

galwaytt

punisher5112 wrote: »

How are you running a car free?

Cost of fuel, tax, insurance,nct and maintenance tyres etc.

Bus travel isn't at outrages prices and I'm not really getting the ir argument as train fares are very high in the UK

I live between two rural stations: Craughwell and Athenry. Both go right into Eyre Square where my S.O. works, and it would be ideal.

However, IR fares are ridiculous. It costs less to run a car into town every day, pay for contract parking, including diesel etc, than to buy an IR train ticket. It's just bananas.

Similiarly, I have occasion to take the family to Dublin, and my sister is bringing hers. With 2 families of 4, it is still cheaper to drive 2 cars to Dublin, park them, and drive back, than to take the train.

Zero incentive to use rail.

Stephen15

Seriously when the luas went people who were fortunate to live near a luas was acting like it was armaeggoden but when the last bus strike was on nobody really cared that much. Even though buses serve far more people than the luas.

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

Bus travel isn't at outrages prices and I'm not really getting the ir argument as train fares are very high in the UK

It may be cheaper here than in the uk but fares for bus and rail in ireland are extortionate compared to mainland europe (without including Scandinavian countries) it sounds you're trying to say that fares in ireland are reasonable just because they're not as high as the uk. Tbh I don't understand why ireland can't strive to get the lowest fares in europe or even as low as Spain and Italy the two with the lowest fares in europe I have travelled in both of the two countries I mentioned and public transport is far more efficient than it is here in ireland CIE have long run out of excuses for the high fare at least for me anyway.

LXFlyer

Stephen15 wrote: »

Seriously when the luas went people who were fortunate to live near a luas was acting like it was armaeggoden but when the last bus strike was on nobody really cared that much. Even though buses serve far more people than the luas.

Really????

I don't recall that at all. People were fuming about it.

LXFlyer

Stephen15 wrote: »

It may be cheaper here than in the uk but fares for bus and rail in ireland are extortionate compared to mainland europe (without including Scandinavian countries) it sounds you're trying to say that fares in ireland are reasonable just because they're not as high as the uk. Tbh I don't understand why ireland can't strive to get the lowest fares in europe or even as low as Spain and Italy the two with the lowest fares in europe I have travelled in both of the two countries I mentioned and public transport is far more efficient than it is here in ireland CIE have long run out of excuses for the high fare at least for me anyway.

Well perhaps you should examine the state funding models that are in place in all those countries, together with the levels of debt that the operating companies have on their balance sheets and then compare it with here.

That will tell you an awful lot.

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

It may be cheaper here than in the uk but fares for bus and rail in ireland are extortionate compared to mainland europe (without including Scandinavian countries) it sounds you're trying to say that fares in ireland are reasonable just because they're not as high as the uk. Tbh I don't understand why ireland can't strive to get the lowest fares in europe or even as low as Spain and Italy the two with the lowest fares in europe I have travelled in both of the two countries I mentioned and public transport is far more efficient than it is here in ireland CIE have long run out of excuses for the high fare at least for me anyway.

It all boils down to subvention which is cut and cut over the last number of years including diesel tax rebate for
Transport.

howiya

punisher5112 wrote: »

It all boils down to subvention which is cut and cut over the last number of years including diesel tax rebate for
Transport.

It's not entirely down to subvention. Imagine if DB services were reliable and more people chose it over cycling and driving. The company would have more passengers and more income. Subvention is only part of the equation

punisher5112

howiya wrote: »

It's not entirely down to subvention. Imagine if DB services were reliable and more people chose it over cycling and driving. The company would have more passengers and more income. Subvention is only part of the equation

They do carry huge amounts. Cycling suits some doesn't suit others.

Passenger increases and db is actually running in the black.

LXFlyer

howiya wrote: »

It's not entirely down to subvention. Imagine if DB services were reliable and more people chose it over cycling and driving. The company would have more passengers and more income. Subvention is only part of the equation

There are so many variables in what causes services to become unreliable, some of which are under DB control but many of them which are not - where do you even start?

cmore123

Inflation is - what? 0.nothing?

By all means gradually restore anything reduced in recent years, but this - like the tram drivers - is opportunistic greed.

howiya

lxflyer wrote: »

There are so many variables in what causes services to become unreliable, some of which are under DB control but many of them which are not - where do you even start?

I'd start with the operational issues that DB regularly quote in their twitter responses

LXFlyer

howiya wrote: »

I'd start with the operational issues that DB regularly quote in their twitter responses

That's either a maintenance issue or a driver shortage - they've been recruiting drivers for some time but it was reported here that some of the new recruits didn't stay - that will cause problems for any business.

howiya

lxflyer wrote: »

That's either a maintenance issue or a driver shortage - they've been recruiting drivers for some time but it was reported here that some of the new recruits didn't stay - that will cause problems for any business.

Of course any business can suffer from staff turnover. Buses can break down etc. I get the 27 on a regular basis. A quick glance at Twitter shows that the 12:10 and 12:30 didn't run from Tallaght due to these issues. That means an hour between services on what is a busy route.

If the reason is a driver shortage then DB know in advance that any other services the same driver was also supposed to fill will not run. Why not tell people in advance?

A simple page on its website detailing services that aren't running for whatever reason with a nice positive headline along the lines 98% departures leaving on time or something to that effect. throw in a link to the journey planner for people to check alternatives. Immediately the company becomes more customer friendly.

punisher5112

Here are some causes of disruption.
Roadworks, Luas works, traffic, loading and unloading of passengers, passenger disputes such as arguments between themselves or staff and in some cases buses held up to wait for assistance, passengers or drivers become ill,people with shockingly stupid questions and some that take it upon themselves to hold the whole bus up. Huge amounts of students etc.. Wheelchair users where ramps take time and the biggest problem buggies and lots of them and the unreal attitude given when one is already on they expect to still be able to travel without folding,problems with fares and so on there is so so much things that can hold a bus up.

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

Here are some causes of disruption.
Roadworks, Luas works, traffic, loading and unloading of passengers, passenger disputes such as arguments between themselves or staff and in some cases buses held up to wait for assistance, passengers or drivers become ill,people with shockingly stupid questions and some that take it upon themselves to hold the whole bus up. Huge amounts of students etc.. Wheelchair users where ramps take time and the biggest problem buggies and lots of them and the unreal attitude given when one is already on they expect to still be able to travel without folding,problems with fares and so on there is so so much things that can hold a bus up.

All really silly little excuses drivers should be have the right to tell someone to f*ck off if someone has a stupid question. From my time travelling on db alot of what you mentioned is rare for example you mentioned drivers and passengers falling ill not as if that dosent happen or anything the odd time id say its pretty rare I've never seen that in all my years. Dwell times are a disgrace another thing I think they should allow is using the middle doors to enter if your using a leap card and your in a queue it wouldn't be a bad idea as it would decrease dwell. You seem to be making excuses for the poor service.

end of the road

Stephen15 wrote: »

All really silly little excuses drivers should be have the right to tell someone to f*ck off if someone has a stupid question. From my time travelling on db alot of what you mentioned is rare for example you mentioned drivers and passengers falling ill not as if that dosent happen or anything the odd time id say its pretty rare I've never seen that in all my years. Dwell times are a disgrace another thing I think they should allow is using the middle doors to enter if your using a leap card and your in a queue it wouldn't be a bad idea as it would decrease dwell. You seem to be making excuses for the poor service.

he is telling you the reality of what can happen when operating a bus service. a reality he has experience of.

Stephen15

end of the road wrote: »

he is telling you the reality of what can happen when operating a bus service. a reality he has experience of.

As I said in my post it's not as if these thing don't happen but I could be wrong but they don't seem veryanair common I'm sure a bus driver would have seen all these things happen but they don't happen on a day to day basis which buses being late are.

up13

Greetings, here is the state of play in DB at the moment.

Brexit- Yes there could be consequences for DB, the legal eagles are looking into the 10% of route tenders, are UK companies now allowed to apply for these routes? It might only be open to EU companies, and are any of them remotely interested in the 10% of routes?

Pay Rise- Boards is going to have to suck it up, its as near a sure thing as you can get. Why you ask? Throughout Europe Tram and Bus drivers are paid the same wages, Bus drivers will be getting pay rise to match the €1,000 per week LUAS drivers get.
The only bump in the road is if drivers dig heels in over money owed to them from past agreements, ballpark figure of 6% rise owed since 2008, so a lot of money.

You don't have to like it, but thats the truth.

Kyleboy

What is the company saying about the back pay, have they made any offers?

punisher5112

Kyleboy wrote: »

What is the company saying about the back pay, have they made any offers?

They came in on 1st day with 6% offer over 3 years so I am lead to believe

Tickityboo

up13 wrote: »

Greetings, here is the state of play in DB at the moment.

Brexit- Yes there could be consequences for DB, the legal eagles are looking into the 10% of route tenders, are UK companies now allowed to apply for these routes? It might only be open to EU companies, and are any of them remotely interested in the 10% of routes?

Pay Rise- Boards is going to have to suck it up, its as near a sure thing as you can get. Why you ask? Throughout Europe Tram and Bus drivers are paid the same wages, Bus drivers will be getting pay rise to match the €1,000 per week LUAS drivers get.
The only bump in the road is if drivers dig heels in over money owed to them from past agreements, ballpark figure of 6% rise owed since 2008, so a lot of money.

You don't have to like it, but thats the truth.

And so it begins!!
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0720/803607-dublin-bus-labour-court/

punisher5112

Just goes to show how much drivers are appreciated.... I mean not....

hardanro

punisher5112 wrote: »

Here are some causes of disruption.
Roadworks, Luas works, traffic, loading and unloading of passengers, passenger disputes such as arguments between themselves or staff and in some cases buses held up to wait for assistance, passengers or drivers become ill,people with shockingly stupid questions and some that take it upon themselves to hold the whole bus up. Huge amounts of students etc.. Wheelchair users where ramps take time and the biggest problem buggies and lots of them and the unreal attitude given when one is already on they expect to still be able to travel without folding,problems with fares and so on there is so so much things that can hold a bus up.

I was once waiting for 140 at Ikea, little before 5PM.
The bus supposed to leave at 5, just put the "Not in service" sign and took off.
The 5:20 bus arrived (didn't seemed to have any technical problems), stood at the end for about 5 minutes, put the "Not in service" sign and took off.
5:40 bus leaved a little late (5:50) but at least stayed in service.
Looked on twitter afterwards, where one of the people on another station along the road complained about the 2 buses missing, and DB rep said that 5:00 service was delayed inbound journey (which was clearly a lie) and 5:20 service had technical difficulties.
So what of the above reasons was in this case?
In any other city, they have an extra bus on the end of the lines, so if a bus is delayed on the journey, the service will not be disrupted. DB somehow manage that when the things go bad (5:00 service missing), to always make situation worse (5:20 missing too).

end of the road

hardanro wrote: »

I was once waiting for 140 at Ikea, little before 5PM.
The bus supposed to leave at 5, just put the "Not in service" sign and took off.
The 5:20 bus arrived (didn't seemed to have any technical problems), stood at the end for about 5 minutes, put the "Not in service" sign and took off.
5:40 bus leaved a little late (5:50) but at least stayed in service.
Looked on twitter afterwards, where one of the people on another station along the road complained about the 2 buses missing, and DB rep said that 5:00 service was delayed inbound journey (which was clearly a lie) and 5:20 service had technical difficulties.
So what of the above reasons was in this case?
In any other city, they have an extra bus on the end of the lines, so if a bus is delayed on the journey, the service will not be disrupted. DB somehow manage that when the things go bad (5:00 service missing), to always make situation worse (5:20 missing too).

a technical issue won't always be visible to the public. dublin bus don't have the vehicles or funding to have spare busses like other cities unfortunately.

Nermal

I must have not been paying attention. I wasn't aware there was a shortage of bus drivers. That's the only reason we might want to pay them more, right?

devnull

I had similar experience with DB about such goings on with buses doing as described with the 140 on another route. There was a lot of face saving replies made to the tweets that I made, giving away as little as possible to portray the company in as good a light as possible.

I was waiting on a bus on one route on the second stop at the route, of which I could see a terminus from. A bus went past me and sat at the terminus for almost 10 minutes and left the terminus at the time the bus was due to leave the terminus but came past my stop "Out of Service"

Three stops further up the road a friend was getting on and I was going to meet her on the same bus, and I told her that it doesn't look like it's running, to which she told me that she was on the bus and why wasn't I on it and it was the same bus (I asked her for the registration)

Twitter conversation went something like this:
Me: "Hi, why did the 12.20 bus on route x not run from the terminus"
DB: "Hi, all buses are running, which stop are you waiting at?"
Me: "I don't see why that is relevant."
DB: "if you don't tell us, we can't tell you."
Me: "It's very simple, what happened to the 12.20 bus, did it run as normal?"
DB: "What stop are you waiting at."
Me: "A bus went out of service at my stop and did not pick up passengers."
DB: "No bus did not operate, all services are operating."
Me: "Stop Number xxxx."
DB: "The bus operated past that stop no services are canceled."
Me: "I'm sorry but that's not true and you know it, I will have to escalate this to the NTA."

Almost straight away they deleted all of their earlier tweets, followed by this:

DB: "Sorry, we checked again and the bus started further up the route due to operational reasons, please accept our apologies."

That's the trouble with social media and twitter for a lot of companies, it's ran as a marketing tool to make the company look good and put out positive spin and damage limitation rather than actually give accurate information.

Note how they avoided the actual question I asked in the initial tweet.

end of the road

Nermal wrote: »

I must have not been paying attention. I wasn't aware there was a shortage of bus drivers. That's the only reason we might want to pay them more, right?

the fact they are due a rise or the fact they are apparently owed some back pay would be another reason.

markpb

punisher5112 wrote:

Just goes to show how much drivers are appreciated.... I mean not....

Why does appreciation come into it? Employees are paid based on what their employer can afford and what they think they need to pay to retain a sufficient level of staff. If appreciation came into it, the top earners in the country would be cuddly old grannies who baked apple tarts every week.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I'm a bit confused by the role of the Labour court in this and the luas dispute. It seems to me that the court makes it recommendations, and if it doesn't suit the union it's totally ignored. Why will employers bother going at all if this is how the unions want to operate?

Vic_08

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I'm a bit confused by the role of the Labour court in this and the luas dispute. It seems to me that the court makes it recommendations, and if it doesn't suit the union it's totally ignored. Why will employers bother going at all if this is how the unions want to operate?

It is not a real court, it is not even binding arbitration, the recommendations are just that. Neither side is bound to abide by them and it is not always the labour side that refuses to agree to them, employers have done so as well.

punisher5112

markpb wrote: »

Why does appreciation come into it? Employees are paid based on what their employer can afford and what they think they need to pay to retain a sufficient level of staff. If appreciation came into it, the top earners in the country would be cuddly old grannies who baked apple tarts every week.

What a silly comment.

Drivers have no back up or appreciation from management.

Did you ever hear the saying a happy worker is a good worker.

The job has deteriorated so much over the last good few years and drivers are been pushed further down with all the cuts and extra work load added.

The company as a whole has way to many on high salaries and huge pensions.

Without a driver there would be no bus.

jimmycrackcorm

punisher5112 wrote:

Without a driver there would be no bus.

Without the public paying there would be no Dublin bus service. There would be a private bus service as the market is clearly there to enable that.

end of the road

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Without the public paying there would be no Dublin bus service.

or any bus service. or any service at all.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

There would be a private bus service as the market is clearly there to enable that.

not on a huge amount of the routes they're wouldn't. probably most.

punisher5112

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Without the public paying there would be no Dublin bus service. There would be a private bus service as the market is clearly there to enable that.

You seem to think everyone pays?

There are approximately in or around 1million eligible to free travel.

Yes the public that don't have free travel pay but this would be no different private or public run.

Costs will imo be higher with a private as they will not run at a loss as their main goal is not a public service but a profitable business.

Fares will be the same and actually quite a bit higher if private to get in and get the 10% and then we go down the road of problems similar to the UK.

Cookie_Monster

punisher5112 wrote: »

Costs will imo be higher with a private as they will not run at a loss as their main goal is not a public service but a profitable business.

you honestly think DB's main goal is a public service? The myriad of topics in here alone of the past ten years+ would definitely indicate otherwise.

punisher5112

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

you honestly think DB's main goal is a public service? The myriad of topics in here alone of the past ten years+ would definitely indicate otherwise.

It's a semi state company and no I don't believe it is ran as best as it could be but also see the other side where private operators run for profit and that can affect other negative

Luas is private and the staff have extremely beneficial extras and very decent wages.

Why is it that db drivers have always been the worst looked after and lowest paid out of all transport forms.

howiya

punisher5112 wrote: »

What a silly comment.

Drivers have no back up or appreciation from management.

Did you ever hear the saying a happy worker is a good worker.

The job has deteriorated so much over the last good few years and drivers are been pushed further down with all the cuts and extra work load added.

The company as a whole has way to many on high salaries and huge pensions.

Without a driver there would be no bus.

I don't disagree with the saying that a happy worker is a good worker but if you are so unhappy would you not consider seeking alternative employment?

ThisRegard

howiya wrote: »

I don't disagree with the saying that a happy worker is a good worker but if you are so unhappy would you not consider seeking alternative employment?

Seems like they can't. The union guy on Radio 1 yesterday said they're in penal servitude.

up13

ThisRegard wrote: »

Seems like they can't. The union guy on Radio 1 yesterday said they're in penal servitude.

Pay in MacDonalds/Burger King/KFC is all the same.
DART and LUAS drivers are now way ahead of DB drivers, of course DB drivers are going to want a big pay rise.
Does anyone here truly believe driving a DART/LUAS is easier than driving a bus?
DB drivers just have to dig heels in and a pay rise which they are happy with will come.

Dravokivich

up13 wrote: »

Pay in MacDonalds/Burger King/KFC is all the same.
DART and LUAS drivers are now way ahead of DB drivers, of course DB drivers are going to want a big pay rise.
Does anyone here truly believe driving a DART/LUAS is easier than driving a bus?
DB drivers just have to dig heels in and a pay rise which they are happy with will come.

It's not about the pay rise Luas drivers got recently. Dublin Bus drivers were due to get a pay rise a long time ago and it still hasn't come yet.

Infini

Id agree with Dravokicivh as well theyre in line for at least the same amount as the luas expecially since theyre owed money from previous agreements which the company not staff walked away from.

Spurion

Why was the pay rise recommended by the labour court significantly lower than the pay rise they recommended for luas drivers? What's the point in making a recommendation that's obviously going to be rejected by Dublin Bus drivers?