DB Pay Rises sought

LXFlyer

Stephen15 wrote: »

Apparentlyon there's meant to be talks this Friday what likelihood would these have of calling off the strikes.

How do you expect anyone except those directly involved in the negotiations to be able to answer that?

No one can answer that right now unless you have a crystal ball?

All we can hope for is that it will lead to more talks and a lifting of the strike action.

Stephen15

There needs to be some sort of contingency plan in law to provide some sort of skelton service during bus strikes in the case of luas and rail strikes there is nearly always some sort of alternative bus transport but for a large proportion of the city there is no alternative means of public transport within walking distance.

StreetLight

Stephen15 wrote: »

There needs to be some sort of contingency plan in law to provide some sort of skelton service .

Tongue in cheek, but the way the current bus system can't manage the high loadings, you would nearly swear the current one is a skeleton service.

LastStop

lxflyer wrote: »

All we can hope for is that it will lead to more talks and a lifting of the strike action.

Talks to take place tomorrow (Friday). Strike action still in place.

kidneyfan

No service or no fares?

LXFlyer

LastStop wrote: »

Talks to take place tomorrow (Friday). Strike action still in place.

I know that - I was stating my hope that the initial talks tomorrow would lead to more substantive talks and a lifting of the strike action.

LXFlyer

kidneyfan wrote: »

No service or no fares?

Not collecting fares would be a breach of contracts of employment by staff so that is a non-starter, as staff and unions would leave themselves exposed to legal action by the bus company.

At present 3 full 48 hour work stoppages are planned.

kidneyfan

I rarely take the bus myself but they give a great sense of comfort. I remember getting the bus in from Tallaght with my mother when I was small. Great sense of occasion.

holly44

If ever you needed proof the people running the NTA are idiots i present the following
irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/nta-is-designing-bus-corridors-it-cannot-build-chief-says-1.2776300

"The authority has also proposed a new “livery” for all State-subsidised bus services, a rebranding which would encompass all Dublin Bus services, about half of the Bus Éireann fleet and a number of private operators who operate subsidised routes under tender."

They announce this on the eve of a strike, we can't pay higher wages but we can waste millions on this.
How do you think this is going down with DB drivers?
How happy would you be if you where are DB driver and read this ?

lawred2

holly44 wrote: »

If ever you needed proof the people running the NTA are idiots i present the following
irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/nta-is-designing-bus-corridors-it-cannot-build-chief-says-1.2776300

"The authority has also proposed a new “livery” for all State-subsidised bus services, a rebranding which would encompass all Dublin Bus services, about half of the Bus Éireann fleet and a number of private operators who operate subsidised routes under tender."

They announce this on the eve of a strike, we can't pay higher wages but we can waste millions on this.
How do you think this is going down with DB drivers?
How happy would you be if you where are DB driver and read this ?

She said the funding for public transport over the seven years amounted to €3.6 billion

what a joke

LXFlyer

Which would happen over the course of the normal repainting cycle - just like any other redesign that Dublin Bus have made over the years.

This is frankly a non-story.

WomanSkirtFan8

holly44 wrote: »

If ever you needed proof the people running the NTA are idiots i present the following
irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/nta-is-designing-bus-corridors-it-cannot-build-chief-says-1.2776300

"The authority has also proposed a new “livery” for all State-subsidised bus services, a rebranding which would encompass all Dublin Bus services, about half of the Bus Éireann fleet and a number of private operators who operate subsidised routes under tender."

They announce this on the eve of a strike, we can't pay higher wages but we can waste millions on this.
How do you think this is going down with DB drivers?
How happy would you be if you where are DB driver and read this ?

thanks for that holly. Don't need to be told just how stupid and idiotic the NTA are. Well that just confirms everything. They're more concerned with this new fleet livery than with actually trying to do their job. :mad:

GLaDOS

Talks break down, strikes to go ahead

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/six-day-dublin-bus-strike-to-go-ahead-after-talks-break-down-752638.html

Stephen15

Why can't db just give their bloody increase and not create misery for their passengers

Uriel.

holly44 wrote: »

If ever you needed proof the people running the NTA are idiots i present the following
irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/nta-is-designing-bus-corridors-it-cannot-build-chief-says-1.2776300

"The authority has also proposed a new “livery” for all State-subsidised bus services, a rebranding which would encompass all Dublin Bus services, about half of the Bus Éireann fleet and a number of private operators who operate subsidised routes under tender."

They announce this on the eve of a strike, we can't pay higher wages but we can waste millions on this.
How do you think this is going down with DB drivers?
How happy would you be if you where are DB driver and read this ?

You are being disingenuous there - that's not an announcement of a soon to commence project.. that's part of a long-term transport strategy (relating to a much broader transport plan than just Dublin Bus) which includes various proposals. It's interesting that you pick out rebranding from the proposals being examined, and not, for example, the 24 hour operation of some bus routes...agenda driven much?

The NTA would be hammered if it didn't examine long-term transport strategies and proposals... damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Uriel.

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

thanks for that holly. Don't need to be told just how stupid and idiotic the NTA are. Well that just confirms everything. They're more concerned with this new fleet livery than with actually trying to do their job. :mad:

NTA's job is the long-term planning of public transport and that's exactly what they are doing. :rolleyes:

holly44

Uriel. wrote: »

You are being disingenuous there - that's not an announcement of a soon to commence project.. that's part of a long-term transport strategy (relating to a much broader transport plan than just Dublin Bus) which includes various proposals. It's interesting that you pick out rebranding from the proposals being examined, and not, for example, the 24 hour operation of some bus routes...agenda driven much?

The NTA would be hammered if it didn't examine long-term transport strategies and proposals... damned if you do, damned if you don't.

24 hour bus service, why should i as a DB driver care about a service which DB might not be responsible for?
Agenda, yes what are the NTA playing at, putting out this new livery proposal, which will cost a small fortune on the eve of strike action?

LXFlyer

holly44 wrote: »

24 hour bus service, why should i as a DB driver care about a service which DB might not be responsible for?
Agenda, yes what are the NTA playing at, putting out this new livery proposal, which will cost a small fortune on the eve of strike action?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this isn't exactly a new idea - in fact it was first proposed over two years ago. She has just reiterated it. She didn't say this was going to start immediately either.

As I already posted it won't cost a small fortune, as it would be done over the course of the normal repainting cycle - buses get repainted every few years as it is - let's not get carried away here.

holly44

lxflyer wrote: »

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this isn't exactly a new idea - in fact it was first proposed over two years ago. She has just reiterated it. She didn't say this was going to start immediately either.

Why do a fluff piece in the paper now?
"There is no money to pay drivers more, but the good news is we are going to paint the buses a nice new colour."
I am aware the fleet is maintained, what amount are done each year,10%? but this repaint job will be a serious speed up of the repaint timetable, the NTA will want it all done ASAP, this will cost extra money.
The NTA looks to be trying to fan the flames with this re-announcement of a old idea. Why is the question.

LXFlyer

holly44 wrote: »

Why do a fluff piece in the paper now?
"There is no money to pay drivers more, but the good news is we are going to paint the buses a nice new colour."
I am aware the fleet is maintained, what amount are done each year,10%? but this repaint job will be a serious speed up of the repaint timetable, the NTA will want it all done ASAP, this will cost extra money.
The NTA looks to be trying to fan the flames with this re-announcement of a old idea. Why is the question.

Because she was the keynote speaker at an international transport conference that was held yesterday and today, and was outlining her vision for the coming years.

Bizarrely enough these events aren't choreographed to take place at the same time as your pay negotiations. The newspaper was simply reporting that speech.

I don't see any evidence that the NTA have rushed anything to date - if anything they are accused of taking far too long to do anything.

But of course none of that suits your agenda.

As for repaints, it's far more regular than 10% - think back to how long the current livery took to be fully implemented - it was done over the normal cycle and took three years to complete. Buses are repainted every three years to keep them looking smart - so again I think you're massively off the mark on this.

Uriel.

holly44 wrote: »

Why do a fluff piece in the paper now?
"There is no money to pay drivers more, but the good news is we are going to paint the buses a nice new colour."
I am aware the fleet is maintained, what amount are done each year,10%? but this repaint job will be a serious speed up of the repaint timetable, the NTA will want it all done ASAP, this will cost extra money.
The NTA looks to be trying to fan the flames with this re-announcement of a old idea. Why is the question.

Jebus you're agenda is clouding your thought processes..

She didn't do a "fluff piece" she was speaking at a research and policy conference...


It shows how invested you are in your job though, considering you didn't realise that the livery change proposal has been in the public domain for a few years now, including in the greater Dublin transport strategy which went to public consultation about a year ago.

Uriel.

holly44 wrote: »

24 hour bus service, why should i as a DB driver care about a service which DB might not be responsible for?
Agenda, yes what are the NTA playing at, putting out this new livery proposal, which will cost a small fortune on the eve of strike action?

Tbh the fact that you are so divested from the industry you provide a front line service for really speaks volumes.
You wouldnt be getting a pay rise if you worked for me that's for sure

WomanSkirtFan8

Uriel. wrote: »

Tbh the fact that you are so divested from the industry you provide a front line service for really speaks volumes.
You wouldnt be getting a pay rise if you worked for me that's for sure

nor me. Lets bear in mind here that the labour court recommendation was just that: a recommendation not something that was legally binding AFAIK, so why jumped straight to industrial action instead of going back to the labour court and continuing to negotiate for a better deal than instead of disrupting the lives of many other workers and so forth?

:cool:

holly44

Uriel. wrote: »

It shows how invested you are in your job though, considering you didn't realise that the livery change proposal has been in the public domain for a few years now, including in the greater Dublin transport strategy which went to public consultation about a year ago.

Uriel. wrote: »

Tbh the fact that you are so divested from the industry you provide a front line service for really speaks volumes.
You wouldnt be getting a pay rise if you worked for me that's for sure

Brilliant powers of deduction.
Forgive me for not spending my time away from work researching the workings of transport in Ireland, a truly exciting topic to spent all my spare time on.
All this shows is that drivers are kept in the dark as much as possible about future plans, like wise the powers that be have insulated themselves from any and all feedback from staff about problems and how to make improvements.

Don't believe me about the complete lack of feedback sought, please explain the on going use of the ticket machines and the loss of money they are responsible for?

holly44

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

nor me. Lets bear in mind here that the labour court recommendation was just that: a recommendation not something that was legally binding AFAIK, so why jumped straight to industrial action instead of going back to the labour court and continuing to negotiate for a better deal than instead of disrupting the lives of many other workers and so forth?

:cool:

See the result the LUAS driver got!

WomanSkirtFan8

holly44 wrote: »

See the result the LUAS driver got!

Private operator. You can't benchmark public and private companies as they are two completely different mindsets.

In the case of the LUAS, drivers only got 18% after originally looking for 53% which they were never going to get and after a strike which seemed to go on forever. Transdev were eventually able to pay on 18%.

As for DB, well, I've already made it clear that drivers should get a wage increase but not the 30% that the unions are looking for. You'll probably get around 10%, 15% if you're extremely lucky.
Ultimately, the company will only pay out what it can afford.
Every strike that happens at DB will cost the company, 600,000 Euro per day of strike action. If this issue isn't resolved, its ultimately going to lead to one of the following:
1) company will go bankrupt (meaning complusory redundancies or
2) the company will go bankrupt and will have to be privatised (who do you think would have to pick up the tab in that case? The public, thats who.

And by the way, you said in one of your earlier posts that public support doesn't mean anything. Really? Strikes rely on public support in order to be able to have any chance of success so you're completely wrong on that one. :mad:

Uriel.

holly44 wrote: »

Brilliant powers of deduction.
Forgive me for not spending my time away from work researching the workings of transport in Ireland, a truly exciting topic to spent all my spare time on.
All this shows is that drivers are kept in the dark as much as possible about future plans, like wise the powers that be have insulated themselves from any and all feedback from staff about problems and how to make improvements.

Don't believe me about the complete lack of feedback sought, please explain the on going use of the ticket machines and the loss of money they are responsible for?

To be fair, it's not even a national strategy, but a greater Dublin one. I know about it and I'm simply a user of the Dublin transport infrastructure and not otherwise invested In it. If I wasn't up to speed on strategies and policies in my industry I'd have no hope of a pay rise. It's amazing that an employee of a public company doesn't know or seemingly care about the proposals for the future operation and management of that company, especially when "ordinary" members of the public are. However unfortunately I am not in the least bit surprised.

WomanSkirtFan8

Uriel. wrote: »

To be fair, it's not even a national strategy, but a greater Dublin one. I know about and I'm simply a user of the Dublin transport infrastructure and not otherwise invested In it. If I wasn't up to speed on strategies and policies in my industries I'd have no hope of a pay rise. It's amazing that an employee of a public company doesn't know or seemingly care about the proposals for the future operation and management of that companies, especially when "ordinary" members of the public are. However unfortunately I am not in the least bit surprised.

excellent points there Uriel. I couldn't agree more with that.

Uriel.

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

And by the way, you said in one of your earlier posts that public support doesn't mean anything. Really? Strikes rely on public support in order to be able to have any chance of success so you're completely wrong on that one. :mad:

They were sugar coated words for "I couldn't give a flying fűck about the public"... Again an unsurprising mindset of people who forget who gives them their bread butter.

end of the road

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

And by the way, you said in one of your earlier posts that public support doesn't mean anything. Really? Strikes rely on public support in order to be able to have any chance of success so you're completely wrong on that one.

actually she isn't wrong. the luas strike had very little support and they still got a good deal.

Uriel. wrote: »

They were sugar coated words for "I couldn't give a flying fűck about the public"... Again an unsurprising mindset of people who forget who gives them their bread butter.

that's not correct. what she wrote was exactly what she meant. what she wrote was not sugar coated words for "I couldn't give a flying fűck about the public"...

Uriel.

end of the road wrote: »

actually she isn't wrong. the luas strike had very little support and they still got a good deal.



that's not correct. what she wrote was exactly what she meant. what she wrote was not sugar coated words for "I couldn't give a flying fűck about the public"...

OK. Tell Paul Murphy I said hello.... Actually don't bother...

holly44

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

Private operator. You can't benchmark public and private companies as they are two completely different mindsets.

And by the way, you said in one of your earlier posts that public support doesn't mean anything. Really? Strikes rely on public support in order to be able to have any chance of success so you're completely wrong on that one. :mad:

We can benchmark when the government is the one footing the bill.
LUAS owned by government, put out tender to get best value for money,
Transdev won tender.
Years pass and Luas drivers want pay rise.
Luas drivers strike and get pay rise.
Luas pay and condition now far exceeds DB drivers.
What is lesson learnt from this?
Transdev a private company can still put in bid, win contract , pay staff high wages AND make a profit for share holders.
Ergo the money the government is paying is below market costs for the running of DB.
DB staff had enough, want and will get pay rise.

YES public support mans SFA, see result of LUAS strike, nurses pay so on and so forth

Uriel.

holly44 wrote: »

We can benchmark when the government is the one footing the bill.

Wrong again, the tax paying public are footing the bill

holly44

Uriel. wrote: »

To be fair, it's not even a national strategy, but a greater Dublin one. I know about it and I'm simply a user of the Dublin transport infrastructure and not otherwise invested In it. If I wasn't up to speed on strategies and policies in my industry I'd have no hope of a pay rise. It's amazing that an employee of a public company doesn't know or seemingly care about the proposals for the future operation and management of that company, especially when "ordinary" members of the public are. However unfortunately I am not in the least bit surprised.

So you know and care about the future of operations and proposals of DB, what good has it done you?
Has anything changed because of the public complaining?
Routes diverted and cancelled, public ignored, the powers that be going to do what they want don't give a fiddlers about the public.
Million and one things i would rather spend my spare time doing than home work about work that will bring zero benefit to me.
Know for a fact feed back is not wanted. Never asked for and totally ignored when given.

Stephen15

We should all know that despite what unions say employees go on strike to cause distruption not win public support. I'd they did it to win public support then the wouldn't go on strike. It's blantantly obivous.

holly44

Uriel. wrote: »

They were sugar coated words for "I couldn't give a flying fűck about the public"... Again an unsurprising mindset of people who forget who gives them their bread butter.

Stick your fingers in your ears and close your eyes all you want, the fact is public opinion don't matter.
You don't have to like it, you can continue to believe you and your opinions are important but history and results shows you are incorrect.
Nurses pay.
Irish Water.
TD expenses.
Homeless crisis.
100 convictions and given the probation act.
The list goes on and on, public opinion don't matter.

end of the road

Uriel. wrote: »

OK. Tell Paul Murphy I said hello.... Actually don't bother...

i would have to either meet him or have anything to do with him in the first place to do so anyway.

holly44

Stephen15 wrote: »

We should all know that despite what unions say employees go on strike to cause distruption not win public support. I'd they did it to win public support then the wouldn't go on strike. It's blantantly obivous.

Everything boils down to money.
Drivers don't want to strike, this has been going on for years, it has only become public knowledge in the last few months.

Now we are going on strike to cause disruption, once money is being lost it will speed up a solution. Its all about the tipping point of the wage increase and the loss of taxes.
Day one of the strike some Dublin chamber of commerce PR person will be on TV complaining E10,000,000 a day is lost in sales in Dublin shops.
No bus service Friday night, a Vintners association PR person will be on TV complaint Bars are loosing money hand over fist.

Week 2 of strike the moaning will increase with employers saying staff are missing work , some talking head will be on TV saying if this is a prolonged strike action the government won't hit its tax take target for the quarter.
Ding,Ding,Ding alarm bells go off in the government, the bean counters crunch the numbers and come up with a offer they hope will get the strike to end and the Tax take back to normal.
If offer is accepted Strike ends.
Tax money starts to flow into government coffers and all is soon forgotten.

holly44

Uriel. wrote: »

Wrong again, the tax paying public are footing the bill

Who foots the cost of the tender that Transdev won?
The tax payer. Its no different just cutting out the Transdev middle man and the profit they pay to share holders

holly44

irishtimes.com/business/economy/tax-receipts-7-below-monthly-target-as-income-tax-falters-1.2777295
Tax receipts 7% below monthly target as income tax falters

A prolonged DB strike will only add to this.
Shops and Pubs will be down sales.
People will have to take time off work.
There will come a tipping point when it is better value for the government to give the pay rise and get the Tax take back to normal.
Sure look at the deal they gave the LUAS drivers, the yearly pay rises will continue after the current Transdev contract expires. Transdev aint the one who green lit this, it would have been the government.

Stephen15

Right these strikes only increase the need for a single state body owned preferably with some sort of local input to operate both buses, luas and potentially the metro LOL. Bus and luas workers should have the the same wages but the less they be paid the better but unfortunately this country has been made a very greedy place mainly by the private sector.

Another I can't stress enough is public transport should be there to provide a service not to make a profit or create employment something. Don't mind what you hear from the right privatisation dosent benefit the travelling public it only creates more needless bureacuracy nobody should make a profit from public transport it must be reinvested into making it better. When transdev luas contract runs out a new Dublin transport company taking both DB and the luas with a new board of reasonably paid directors.

howiya

Stephen15 wrote: »

Bus and luas workers should have the the same wages but the less they be paid the better but unfortunately this country has been made a very greedy place mainly by the private sector.

No they shouldn't. They are different jobs and they work for different employers. You can argue that they may be similar. If you want a tram drivers wage become a tram driver. If you want to be a bus driver you earn a bus drivers wage.

I also don't agree with the less they be paid the better remark. Great it brings down costs for the company but at what cost to the employees? Maybe the less you are paid the better

WomanSkirtFan8

Uriel. wrote: »

They were sugar coated words for "I couldn't give a flying fűck about the public"... Again an unsurprising mindset of people who forget who gives them their bread butter.

Indeed. That says absolutely everything in relation to their whole attitude towards joe public doesn't it? :mad:

Stephen15

howiya wrote: »

I also don't agree with the less they be paid the better remark. Great it brings down costs for the company but at what cost to the employees? Maybe the less you are paid the better

What I meant by the lower the better I meant the lowest the unions are willing for their workers to be paid. That could be 50k a year.

Here's a compromise the two parties might agree to DB agrees to give the workers what they want in return for a no strike clause for ten years a triple win situation the union gets what they want and db won't have to lose renevue through strikes and passengers won't be put out.

holly44

howiya wrote: »

No they shouldn't. They are different jobs and they work for different employers. You can argue that they may be similar. If you want a tram drivers wage become a tram driver. If you want to be a bus driver you earn a bus drivers wage.

Tell that to Tram and Bus companies around Europe, as they pay both drivers the same wage.
You don't seem to realise we both work for the same employers, The NTA.

holly44

Stephen15 wrote: »

What I meant by the lower the better I meant the lowest the unions are willing for their workers to be paid.

Thats one of the strike reasons, pay Bus Drivers the same as Tram Drivers, like the rest of Europe.

holly44

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

Indeed. That says absolutely everything in relation to their whole attitude towards joe public doesn't it? :mad:

Joe public can scream until he is blue in the face, he has no power and his opinion does not matter, the only time he has a bit of influence is come election time, and then politicians promise him everything to get elected and then ignore him once in power.

howiya

holly44 wrote: »

Tell that to Tram and Bus companies around Europe, as they pay both drivers the same wage.
You don't seem to realise we both work for the same employers, The NTA.

You do not work for the NTA

jimmycrackcorm

Stephen15 wrote:

Another I can't stress enough is public transport should be there to provide a service not to make a profit or create employment something. Don't mind what you hear from the right privatisation dosent benefit the travelling public it only creates more needless bureacuracy nobody should make a profit from public transport it must be reinvested into making it better. When transdev luas contract runs out a new Dublin transport company taking both DB and the luas with a new board of reasonably paid directors.

Yep and the same for air travel. Nobody in their right mind would say we're better off these days with Ryanair compared to when the state owned Aer Lingus and Dublin to London fares were £600.

The problem with your argument for reinvestment in public services is that it inevitably goes to higher wages and not to improved services for the public.

end of the road

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Yep and the same for air travel. Nobody in their right mind would say we're better off these days with Ryanair compared to when the state owned Aer Lingus and Dublin to London fares were £600.

again, the air industry is irrelevant. it will always be irrelevant. different industry, different characteristics. cannot be compared to subsidized bus services in dublin.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The problem with your argument for reinvestment in public services is that it inevitably goes to higher wages and not to improved services for the public.

and if that is the case then it wouldn't change whoever runs it as the money would go to something else.