Stephen Henderson and his appraisal of Irish football

Iused2likebusts

TheDoc wrote: »

Like jesus christ, there is players in the LOI that were benchwarmers in my schoolboy teams or even now come down to some 5 aside we play and get run around. Quality is a big issue that no amount of fandome is going to change.

Players develop at different stages just because someone wasn't a stand out player at 13/14 doesn't mean they won't be when they reach 18/19. At a younger age the faster kid or bigger kid may stand out from the crowd whereas these advantages aren't as prevalent when it gets to senior football.
Your 5 a side must be some standard if yous are giving loi players the run around I find that very hard to believe. These loi players are hardly 1st team starters at premier league clubs.

Iused2likebusts

KingBrian2 wrote: »

We have to remember this country is an extremely passionate sporting country be it Athletics, GAA, Rugby, Tennis, Cycling, Boxing, Horse Racing, hell even Cricket so Football falls behind and concentrating on the one sport never works for us with all these games were are attracted to.

A lot of the support for these sports only come out for the big events or when things are going well. You will find in a lot of cases it's the same people supporting all these sports also.

Mec27

I highly doubt anybody on boards is giving LOI players the runaround unless Xavi decided to set up an account. That is just a blatant lie actually and I don't understand why anyone would argue that. I've heard stories of LOI players being pigs and struggling in 5 a sides(John Lester) but everything I've heard, once he is actually on the ball you cannot get it off him. That is John Lester, a nobody LOI player,nowhere close to one of best in the league.

CSF

John Lester fell off the LOI merry go round a good while back too to be fair.

fullstop

Mec27 wrote: »

I highly doubt anybody on boards is giving LOI players the runaround unless Xavi decided to set up an account. That is just a blatant lie actually and I don't understand why anyone would argue that. I've heard stories of LOI players being pigs and struggling in 5 a sides(John Lester) but everything I've heard, once he is actually on the ball you cannot get it off him. That is John Lester, a nobody LOI player,nowhere close to one of best in the league.

Exactly, it's nonsense. The most recent LOI player I played with was Gartland in a 6 a side league, division 1 so pretty good standard, and the other team couldn't get the ball off him. And he's a defender. The other point about the LOI getting their house in order over TV games, well what do you want them to do?! There is no regular income from RTE, the clubs get paid a pittance when they have a game televised and it's always RTE's choice what games they show and when.

TheDoc

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Players develop at different stages just because someone wasn't a stand out player at 13/14 doesn't mean they won't be when they reach 18/19. At a younger age the faster kid or bigger kid may stand out from the crowd whereas these advantages aren't as prevalent when it gets to senior football.
Your 5 a side must be some standard if yous are giving loi players the run around I find that very hard to believe. These loi players are hardly 1st team starters at premier league clubs.

And that's totally fine, nobody is disputing that. Players develop at different ages. The general point I'm making is that the standard in parts in LOI is not that much different to what you could see going down to watch your local senior team play on a Sunday afternoon.

TheDoc

Mec27 wrote: »

I highly doubt anybody on boards is giving LOI players the runaround unless Xavi decided to set up an account. That is just a blatant lie actually and I don't understand why anyone would argue that. I've heard stories of LOI players being pigs and struggling in 5 a sides(John Lester) but everything I've heard, once he is actually on the ball you cannot get it off him. That is John Lester, a nobody LOI player,nowhere close to one of best in the league.

Well you can call it whatever you want to be honest, it's not a lie, but as I won't be naming players then I guess we can just leave it at that.

Mec27

fullstop wrote: »

Exactly, it's nonsense. The most recent LOI player I played with was Gartland in a 6 a side league, division 1 so pretty good standard, and the other team couldn't get the ball off him. And he's a defender. The other point about the LOI getting their house in order over TV games, well what do you want them to do?! There is no regular income from RTE, the clubs get paid a pittance when they have a game televised and it's always RTE's choice what games they show and when.

My friend played in LOI, he's the best player I have ever seen, his first touch is silly, he plays 5 a sides and just walks through everyone. He scored like 40 goals for Crumlin in the LSL at 17. He couldn't make the Bohs team.

dan1895

TheDoc wrote: »

And that's totally fine, nobody is disputing that. Players develop at different ages. The general point I'm making is that the standard in parts in LOI is not that much different to what you could see going down to watch your local senior team play on a Sunday afternoon.

Yes it is. I've seen plenty of 'non league' players move up to the league of ireland before quickly disappearing again. Most at 1st division level. Obviously some make it but then again some LOI players have made it in the premiership.

TheDoc

fullstop wrote: »

The other point about the LOI getting their house in order over TV games, well what do you want them to do?! There is no regular income from RTE, the clubs get paid a pittance when they have a game televised and it's always RTE's choice what games they show and when.

Well that is kind of the point. Did they not just sign recently a rubbish broadcasting deal?

There is more then RTE out there, they could maybe attempt better negotiations. Why arn't the FAI intervening and assisting with a better arrangement?

I am absolutely disgusted paying my TV license ever year. For all the furor over Irish Water, incredible that people never bother their arse about a TV license paid to a station who have massive advertisement revenue.

As payers of a tax that goes into RTE, a state owned broadcaster, maybe there can be tougher lobbying for better scheduling and more exposure to the league? I could actually partially stomach the TV license if there was some tangible allotment to improving LOI coverage.

TheDoc

Mec27 wrote: »

My friend played in LOI, he's the best player I have ever seen, his first touch is silly, he plays 5 a sides and just walks through everyone. He scored like 40 goals for Crumlin in the LSL at 17. He couldn't make the Bohs team.

That is exactly filtering into my overall point. Sorry read back my post and realised I omitted the paragraph so see why it's a point of contention.

But as I've posted numerous times before about, there is still the "who you know"culture operating in a lot of the feeding clubs and selection panels around our game both at club level, and national level at underage.

Was happening when I was a teen, and for all intensive purposes still happening now. So to clarify more as I can see why my original comment is a bit ludicrous, we occasionally supplement numbers with LOI players, and our five aside level would be pretty high. Not me granted, but there are guys in our group who have all done the England thing and had contractual offers etc. But similar to your friend, I've some friends that you are just baffled how they didn't get selected for things, and as you get older you realise that its more who you know.

I had first hand experience in that myself as a teen playing in goal, where I was frequently excluded from final selections from panels despite being the far superior player. And as I got older and met back some people and there would be a reminisce it would all transpire what was going on behind the scenes.

Mec27

TheDoc wrote: »

Well you can call it whatever you want to be honest, it's not a lie, but as I won't be naming players then I guess we can just leave it at that.

You might get a few players that aren't that good until they play on a 11 a side. These would be lads who were fitter by nature and kept going with the dream to become a footballer where others just gave up. Shane Long and James McClean wouldn't be in the top 20 footballers in the LOI, they are playing in England becausing of their physical stats, not their footballing ability.

Iused2likebusts

TheDoc wrote: »

And that's totally fine, nobody is disputing that. Players develop at different ages. The general point I'm making is that the standard in parts in LOI is not that much different to what you could see going down to watch your local senior team play on a Sunday afternoon.

In your initial point your talking about watching games on TV. Which is the likes of dundalk cork pats rovers etc. The standard of player there is going to be streets ahead of your average Joe playing 5 a side and I think you are dismissing the standard way too much. Of course there are some players playing 1st division and in and around 1st team squads that would be much of a muchness with some lsl players.

fullstop

TheDoc wrote: »

And that's totally fine, nobody is disputing that. Players develop at different ages. The general point I'm making is that the standard in parts in LOI is not that much different to what you could see going down to watch your local senior team play on a Sunday afternoon.

That's simply not true! Unless you're playing with reserve players from a team at the lower end of the First Division.

TheDoc

fullstop wrote: »

That's simply not true! Unless you're playing with reserve players from a team at the lower end of the First Division.

Well like I said, not getting into naming names, so you can have your take and I'll have mine

TheDoc

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

In your initial point your talking about watching games on TV. Which is the likes of dundalk cork pats rovers etc. The standard of player there is going to be streets ahead of your average Joe playing 5 a side and I think you are dismissing the standard way too much. Of course there are some players playing 1st division and in and around 1st team squads that would be much of a muchness with some lsl players.

I did say "parts" to try avoid making a sweeping statement

NoCrackHaving

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Am with you here 100%. It's right too what you say about the Italy game, although I wouldn't fault people for overplaying the achievement a bit. They've been so starved of success.

I remember, god it must be 10-12 years ago now, attending a Brian Kerr seminar in Dublin. One thing he said really stuck with me. Can't recall if he mentioned Iceland, but it was places like that: Albania, Latvia, Finland etc. He talked about how himself and Noel O'Reilly would visit these places and be bowled over by the facilities and level of coaching they were implementing. If we weren't careful, he said, they'd be passing us out within a few years. Fairly prophetic words I always thought.

And think about that for a second. Kerr - bit of a cranky old goat to be fair - but still the most capable man in Irish football and I doubt he'd want to touch the FAI with a 40-foot pole the way it's currently set up. The FAI reminds me of the old FF party, ignore the wider issues while doling out the largesse around the country, greasing enough palms to ensure you stay in power. The football equivalent of parish pump politics. Sadly, they are all too good at it.

Agreed 100% also. If Ireland want to remain competitive in European let alone world football at the international level they need to start a massive root and branch reform now if they want to keep pace with countries with similar populations such as Belgium or Finland or Serbia. This will take quite a while to pay off, probably 6-8 years before we begin noticing anything at the very earliest but it's what needs to be done for the Irish national team long-term. We all know this won't happen though while Delaney and co still run the FAI, that one result against Italy will prevent any criticism of the current set up.

Green Fella

TheDoc wrote: »

That is exactly filtering into my overall point. Sorry read back my post and realised I omitted the paragraph so see why it's a point of contention.

But as I've posted numerous times before about, there is still the "who you know"culture operating in a lot of the feeding clubs and selection panels around our game both at club level, and national level at underage.

Was happening when I was a teen, and for all intensive purposes still happening now. So to clarify more as I can see why my original comment is a bit ludicrous, we occasionally supplement numbers with LOI players, and our five aside level would be pretty high. Not me granted, but there are guys in our group who have all done the England thing and had contractual offers etc. But similar to your friend, I've some friends that you are just baffled how they didn't get selected for things, and as you get older you realise that its more who you know.

I had first hand experience in that myself as a teen playing in goal, where I was frequently excluded from final selections from panels despite being the far superior player. And as I got older and met back some people and there would be a reminisce it would all transpire what was going on behind the scenes.

Sadly that is my experience as well, the nepotism here is really poisonous and really a blight on this country. It's most evident in employment, media and the GAA. I wasnt aware it was as much of a big thing in Golf or Football, I was always treated fairly with my local side, but we had no team locally from U13 to Senior at my age, it's not ran well but usually they attempted fairness.

My local team are made up of disgruntled ex GAA players who hate GAA because of how badly treated they were. All good sound lads, who weren't treated fairly because they had the wrong surname and came from the wrong family.

Francie Barrett

Joe_ Public wrote: »

"The League of Ireland is our problem child"

- FAI chief executive, 2015

He is right.

The current set up with the League of Ireland is failing us badly. The last players who we've had come through the club system in some form are Meyler and McClean, both of whom are 27 now. What's a shocking indictment of the LOI.

I do not know where we go from here, but the whole thing needs restructuring in a serious way. My thoughts would be to abolish the club system and take a GAA approach of a centrally organized body with county boards to run the local teams. We are such a small country, I don't think it's realistic for clubs to be competing with each other and duplicating effort on youth development.

Corholio

TheDoc wrote: »

Bashing people for following an English team, for having the audacity to want to spend THEIR FREE TIME AND MONEY doing what they want, just adds to the little fan syndrome that goes on with the LOI, where anyone who supports an English team and doesn't like the LOI is a hun or something.

To be fair I think this is said in a very isolated way, as if fans just go around saying that off the cuff. A lot of it is in response to opinions towards the league itself, the bashing comes plenty back the other way as well it has to be recognised. Everytime I hear the LOI fans being criticised for commenting on Irish fans who follow English clubs it's always as if it's all one sided criticism and it's quite obviously not, I think that has to be recognised before we go down the LOI v others route when it doesn't have to be like that at all.

There's lots of reasons the league isn't doing well, clubs, how they are ran, the F.A.I. not giving a ****, drainage of support towards other leagues etc etc. Just saying the clubs should get their house in order and that would solve isn't right either. Some clubs are poorly run of course, but the foundations and condition the F.A.I set down leaves almost all clubs trying to catch up to just being even averagely run. Clubs shouldn't have to do tricks just to be on average, level footing business wise, and a lot of the F.A.I. measures makes it like this.

Joe_ Public

Francie Barrett wrote: »

He is right.

The current set up with the League of Ireland is failing us badly. The last players who we've had come through the club system in some form are Meyler and McClean, both of whom are 27 now. What's a shocking indictment of the LOI.

I do not know where we go from here, but the whole thing needs restructuring in a serious way. My thoughts would be to abolish the club system and take a GAA approach of a centrally organized body with county boards to run the local teams. We are such a small country, I don't think it's realistic for clubs to be competing with each other and duplicating effort on youth development.

He's right in the sense that there's a problem with the League, that it is badly in need of help. I mean, that much is as obvious as the nose on your face. But he's not right to call it a "problem child", like they're somehow fully to blame for everything, like they're some sort of irritant sent to test him. That's not how the top official in the country should be speaking about it in my view anyway.

Personally I'm not bursting with solutions myself, but I do know that if you can't create a sense of trust between the various parties, then you've little hope of finding a starting point. And solving the issue of the League isn't an isolated target in itself, it's also bound up with addressing the youth development issue. Tackle one and you can begin to address the other. "Everybody singing from the same hymn sheet," as Ruud Dokter put it. They realised this in Iceland 15 years ago and adopted measures to deal with it. I reckon there's a fair bit we could learn from them if we were of a mind to.

Omackeral

pablomakaveli wrote: »

This is a big thing actually. I've no problem with people supporting English clubs or whatever but a lot of people have an utter disdain for the LOI. This attitude of "how dare they not be of the quality of Premiership clubs". Its an absolutely toxic mindset.

Fact is that the two aren't mutually exclusive either. LOI games are typically on a Friday night and EPL is on a Sat afternoon or Sunday. So easy to follow both. Most LOI fans do actually. This myth that we only enjoy our own stuff is bulls*it. We love it all. You can bet your bottom dollar that Cork, Dundalk and Galway fans are as glued to the Euros as anyone else and will be following the Premier League when it returns.

Omackeral

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I do not know where we go from here, but the whole thing needs restructuring in a serious way. My thoughts would be to abolish the club system and take a GAA approach of a centrally organized body with county boards to run the local teams. We are such a small country, I don't think it's realistic for clubs to be competing with each other and duplicating effort on youth development.

I appreciate you're offering a solution but abolishing existing clubs is a bit drastic no? I mean these are the few people in this country who actually do go to games. I certainly wouldn't support a Dublin City team (that's actually been done before, they had about 60 fans) and I wouldn't be shouting for an amalgamated team made up of Shamrock Rovers fellas either.

I would be up for adding teams from unrepresented counties to the existing structure though, Kerry and Mayo come to mind. Waive the 1st Division fee for a couple of seasons and see how it goes.

namloc1980

TheDoc wrote: »

And that's totally fine, nobody is disputing that. Players develop at different ages. The general point I'm making is that the standard in parts in LOI is not that much different to what you could see going down to watch your local senior team play on a Sunday afternoon.

Nonsense. In the FAI Cup every year the LoI clubs batter the crap out of the best of the Junior soccer sides with the occasional shock thrown in.

dundalkfc10

namloc1980 wrote: »

Nonsense. In the FAI Cup every year the LoI clubs batter the crap out of the best of the Junior soccer sides with the occasional shock thrown in.

This times 100!

LOI teams destroy LSL sides in the cup

namloc1980

pablomakaveli wrote: »

This is a big thing actually. I've no problem with people supporting English clubs or whatever but a lot of people have an utter disdain for the LOI. This attitude of "how dare they not be of the quality of Premiership clubs". Its an absolutely toxic mindset.

Spot on. People who complain about the LoI and bemoan the "sh1t" standard are the same people who are measuring it against the upper tiers of the EPL, La Liga and Champions League and who also generally don't go to actual football matches but watch it on telly with overhyped analysis and multiple camera angles. Of course Dundalk or Cork City aren't going to compare to Arsenal or Real Madrid or Borussia Dortmund and if you're yardstick is against that level then you're on a different planet. These teams and leagues are the exception and not the rule. But unfortunately so many people are invested in "their" team in the UK and in Sky Sports, that the mindset is unlikely to change.

maxmarmalade

His most important tweet was this:

"nobody in a position to do so really really cares about football in this country of ours ."


That for me says it all. John Delaney and none of his underlings care about football - its a footnote (pardon the pun). I believe we need a new breakaway football association. After all, the FAI itself was a breakaway.

howiya

He didn't really offer any solutions in any of his tweets. Be interesting if someone like extra time could do a follow up article with him

maxmarmalade

howiya wrote: »

He didn't really offer any solutions in any of his tweets. Be interesting if someone like extra time could do a follow up article with him

He suggested have people who love football in charge of the game.

That's fundamental. Look at the GAA and what they do. Look at the fantastic new academy in Tyrone. Generally, the people in power in the GAA love GAA. In the FAI, they're only interested in the accounts and in JD's case, having a really really really good time on 400k. Its nuts.

Laois_Man

The thing is, many people in the country don't have a local LoI club and the GAA culture that us culthies grew up in forbids us from supporting a team with the name of another county in its name. However, we'll still supoort clubs from England, although even the vast majority of them don't actually do anything to "support" the English club either. Yes, they'll shout at a TV screen or maybe buy a jersey, but the actual club feels neglible or zero actual benefit from the so-called support. Then there's a reatively small number that travel to the UK for a game or a few games per year. But the vast majority of people who claim to support English clubs don't actually suport them any more than they support a LoI club.

dan1895

maxmarmalade wrote: »

He suggested have people who love football in charge of the game.

That's fundamental. Look at the GAA and what they do. Look at the fantastic new academy in Tyrone. Generally, the people in power in the GAA love GAA. In the FAI, they're only interested in the accounts and in JD's case, having a really really really good time on 400k. Its nuts.

But isn't the Dear Leader a big hurling fan?

Joe_ Public

dan1895 wrote: »

But isn't the Dear Leader a big hurling fan?

Yes, played junior hurling for Tipp back in the day, is a massive Waterford hurling fan and I think he was also joint manager of Kilkenny when they won the All Ireland a couple of years ago.

pablomakaveli

Laois_Man wrote: »

The thing is, many people in the country don't have a local LoI club and the GAA culture that us culthies grew up in forbids us from supporting a team with the name of another county in its name.

Thing is when people have one they still dont bother. Look at all the regional clubs that have gone to the wall over the years. Kildare County, Kilkenny City, Monaghan. Athlone and Waterford are struggling now and who knows if they'll last either.

howiya

maxmarmalade wrote: »

He suggested have people who love football in charge of the game.

That's fundamental. Look at the GAA and what they do. Look at the fantastic new academy in Tyrone. Generally, the people in power in the GAA love GAA. In the FAI, they're only interested in the accounts and in JD's case, having a really really really good time on 400k. Its nuts.

Again that's not a solution. He's only identified a problem. How do you change the people at the top?

maxmarmalade

howiya wrote: »

Again that's not a solution. He's only identified a problem. How do you change the people at the top?

I don't believe you can change the people at the top of the FAI. The fundamental problem here is that a corporate structure has been applied to a sports organization. If you look at the structure of the FAI, its farcical. There are executives, non-executives, councils, committees, presidents, a CEO. A sports organsation is first and foremost supposed to serve the public. A corporation does the opposite: it serves and enriches itself. If you apply a corprorate structure to a sports organisation, you end up with the FAI - an organisation that believes in money is the bottom line and has forgotten that its there to serve the public.

The only solution to this is a new football association. This isn't as crazy as it seems - the FAI was itself a breakaway organisation. The new organisation should have a completely flat structure. In fact, it should have the exact opposite to a corporate structure, whatever that may look like.

nice_guy80

Irish people are brilliant for the bandwagon hopping.

Next it'll be the Galway football team or Clare hurlers
Or Connacht rugby team
Or Irish cricketers.

maxmarmalade

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Irish people are brilliant for the bandwagon hopping.

Next it'll be the Galway football team or Clare hurlers
Or Connacht rugby team
Or Irish cricketers.

I think there is a genuine love of football - more irish travel to Premier League matches than any other matches.

The problem is we have the FAI who are essentially determined to have a really really good time on mostly taxpayers money. They know this wont go along forever, the jig will be up soon. So they've destroyed grass roots football meaning the standard of the Airtricity League isnt very good. Im a football obsessive and will watch nearly any match. But the Airtricity League matches are often unwatchable. How many times per game does the ball end up at the fullback, who then boots it straight down the line. That football died 20 years ago in ever other country.

In a way I see John Delaney as a smarter version of the Console CEO Paul Kelly. Both are supposed to serve the public and both have essentially leached the same amount of money given to their organisations in good faith (although looks like Delaney has made more than Kelly what with his massive massive expense account).

Delaney whoever has smartly been up front about how much he's ripping us off by, whereas Kelly tried to hide it. Best place to hide is in full view, as they say.

Coillte_Bhoy

Laois_Man wrote: »

The thing is, many people in the country don't have a local LoI club and the GAA culture that us culthies grew up in forbids us from supporting a team with the name of another county in its name. However, we'll still supoort clubs from England, although even the vast majority of them don't actually do anything to "support" the English club either. Yes, they'll shout at a TV screen or maybe buy a jersey, but the actual club feels neglible or zero actual benefit from the so-called support. Then there's a reatively small number that travel to the UK for a game or a few games per year. But the vast majority of people who claim to support English clubs don't actually suport them any more than they support a LoI club.

I dont think thats necessarily true. There are decent numbers of supporters of Sligo Rovers in North Mayo and of Galway in east and south mayo. General sports fans in Mayo would like to see either or both do well

Coillte_Bhoy

maxmarmalade wrote: »

I think there is a genuine love of football - more irish travel to Premier League matches than any other matches.

.

What does this mean exactly? More than what other matches??

Captain Havoc

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I dont think thats necessarily true. There are decent numbers of supporters of Sligo Rovers in North Mayo and of Galway in east and south mayo. General sports fans in Mayo would like to see either or both do well

Live and from Kilkenny, season ticket at Shamrock Rovers although my girlfriend lives in Cork, so I'm in the process of getting her interested in league of Ireland.

andekwarhola

TheDoc wrote: »

Like jesus christ, there is players in the LOI that were benchwarmers in my schoolboy teams or even now come down to some 5 aside we play and get run around. Quality is a big issue that no amount of fandome is going to change.

Name the league of Ireland players, or at least the teams, or this can be safely dismissed as pub spoofing.

maxmarmalade

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

What does this mean exactly? More than what other matches??

Sorry i meant to say more Irish go to premier league games than any other nationality outside of britain

howiya

maxmarmalade wrote: »

Sorry i meant to say more Irish go to premier league games than any other nationality outside of britain

Football tourists. Here's a link to the numbers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34197370

overshoot

howiya wrote: »

Football tourists. Here's a link to the numbers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34197370

121,000 from the ROI. By contrast extratime put the overall mid season attendance figure at 183,000
id love it if there was a survey of how many of that 121k regularly attend LOI games, but for the sake of it sweeping statements if they all did it just once a year it would boost attendances by 1/3rd!!