Console. Charity, Irish-style

Glenbhoy

donegaLroad wrote: »

collecting money under false pretences would definitely be fraud at some level.

Doing it at the scale and time period that this guy was doing it would be a major offense.

Whether he does jail or not, I wouldn't like to be him!

We only know what we're fed by the media on this, but what is different here than any other charity? As I mentioned previously, so long as 5% of income goes to the actual cause, I think you're in the clear.
In this instance, he was a director of the charity, so, spending was obviously authorised, he wasn't stealing, there may be revenue issues (but he could have filed accurate returns for all we know).
My guess is he'll agree to retire with only half his entitled lump sum, but he'll get his full (and very generous) pension.

One other thing, I'm pretty shocked about the opening of the storage container, again we only know what we're fed by media, but the info there is surprisingly sparce imo, great to see how basic rights are adhered to when there's a mob on the loose.

STB.

I see that Kelly's sister (Joan McKenna) is claiming that she is not the third named current director who is another person called Joan Burke McKenna.

The Irish World a news website for the Irish in Britain had to make an apology having been contacted by solictors on Kelly's sisters behalf.

We apologise to Mr Kelly’s sister for any entirely unintentional confusion or embarrassment caused to her by suggesting she was a director of Console given she tells us she is not and has never been and informs us she has never benefitted from the charity.

That page has since been taken down altogether (thanks google cache)

Yet under former directors.....

https://companycheck.co.uk/company/IE431245/CONSOLE-SUICIDE-BEREAVEMENT-COUNSELLING-LIMITED/directors-secretaries

Confusing, just a little bit.

mickdw

Glenbhoy wrote: »

We only know what we're fed by the media on this, but what is different here than any other charity? As I mentioned previously, so long as 5% of income goes to the actual cause, I think you're in the clear.
In this instance, he was a director of the charity, so, spending was obviously authorised, he wasn't stealing, there may be revenue issues (but he could have filed accurate returns for all we know).
My guess is he'll agree to retire with only half his entitled lump sum, but he'll get his full (and very generous) pension.

One other thing, I'm pretty shocked about the opening of the storage container, again we only know what we're fed by media, but the info there is surprisingly sparce imo, great to see how basic rights are adhered to when there's a mob on the loose.

I wondering also what the outcome will be. They were probably good at this scam to ensure they played by some rules to keep charity status etc and I guess as controllers of the charity, wages could be set at whatever they wished.
I cannot however see how they can claim spending charity funds directly on private spending is legit. You simply wouldn't do that and then attempt to account for it in a tax return.
Added to this, it is rumoured that there were credit cards in name of old employees etc being fraudulently used. If that is the case, it's a slam dunk surely.

Simon2015

It wouldn't surprise me if kelly gets off, just look at Bertie who was carrying around a suitcase with enough cash to buy a house and he never got done for that.

Also Charlie Haughey never got done for corruption either.

Ireland is a great little country to do business if you happen to be a white collar criminal.

Glenbhoy

mickdw wrote: »

I wondering also what the outcome will be. They were probably good at this scam to ensure they played by some rules to keep charity status etc and I guess as controllers of the charity, wages could be set at whatever they wished.
I cannot however see how they can claim spending charity funds directly on private spending is legit. You simply wouldn't do that and then attempt to account for it in a tax return.
Added to this, it is romoured that there were credit cards in name of old employees etc being fraudulently used. If that is the case, it's a slam dunk surely.

I'm sure there were a few company law violations, but whether they're worth pursuing is another matter. There certainly appears to have been a bit of fecking around re the accounts submitted in order to receive govt grants, fraud though? Possibly, but it is surprisingly difficult and expensive to prove.
On what we know thus far, there's not much there, for example, you say spending organisation money for private purposes, that may be the case, but we have no idea if that is the case or not. Due process means that he has to be allowed present his defence.

This whole lockup opening really doesn't sit well with me, I'm not surprised that someone inexperienced in fraud investigations and asset recovery such as hall should go for it, but shocked that a judge would allow it.

riclad

It can take years to take someone to court for fraud .
Maybe our laws re white collar crime need updating .
If a banker is shown to commit fraud make them pay a large fine,pay back their bonus, reduce their pensions .
All wages for charitys need to be published online .
Also admin costs ,running expenses vs how much money is spent on children, etc the people
the charity is meant to help .
This data should be printed on all charity leaflets ,and collection box,s .
Any organisation which gets money from the government
should publish at least the top 10 executives salary and pension data .
In the 80s you could buy a house with cash,
thats no longer true .
I think all bank transactions over a few grand are reported to revenue .
There seems to no limits as to how much charitys can pay the ceo.
Or how large his pension is.

STB.

riclad wrote: »

It can take years to take someone to court for fraud .
Maybe our laws re white collar crime need updating .
If a banker is shown to commit fraud make them pay a large fine,pay back their bonus, reduce their pensions .
All wages for charitys need to be published online .
Also admin costs ,running expenses vs how much money is spent on children, etc the people
the charity is meant to help .
This data should be printed on all charity leaflets ,and collection box,s .
Any organisation which gets money from the government
should publish at least the top 10 executives salary and pension data .

The journal published a list of 10 charities where the CEO was receiving in excess of 100k.

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-charity-ceo-salaries-spending-best-practice-2659408-Mar2016/

The problem is with the Charities Ombudsman and the lack of teeth given to it, much like the Banking overseer and every other Ombudsman every appointed by governments in recent years. Light touch regulation negotiated by politicians in the Houses of the Oireachtas shows the lack of political will.

Lord Trollington

It's quite obvious that Paul and his family was doing some really questionable at the helm of console, highly unethical most likely highly illegal also.

But is anyone else a little uncomfortable with the level of reporting of it.

OK, a charitable organisation has vital funds misappropriated but at this present time in my opinion there is some bigger governmental issues really not getting a whole lot of coverage.

Like if this level of scrutiny and reporting was done on the massive massive pay the top players in the HSE, hospital management ect are getting at the moment coupled with the bordering 3rd World level of health care we are providing at times to our people is farcical. There are 18 month to 2 year waiting lists for some patients. This is a known fact and seems to be generally accepted as the norm, whilst the country loses the run of themselves over water charges, bin charges and now a charity who has some funding misappropriated.

Kelly family members' accounts have been frozen, it seems.

Paul Kelly admitted to a psychiatric hospital

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/high-court-freezes-assets-of-console-founder-wife-and-their-son-34858542.html

Counsel for Console secured mareva orders freezing the assets of Mr and Mrs Kelly. A temporary freezing order was also made freezing the assets of Tim Kelly, who, the court was told, runs Console’s operation in the UK.

Patricia Kelly sat at the back of the court during the proceedings.

She made no comment as she left afterwards.

The Independent are also reporting the contents of the container searched by Hall

300 hanging folders for filing cabinets, 30 desk folders, 50 ring binders, a Dell laptop, 25 cheque books, a petty cash box, 40 keys, a briefcase and numerous Cds, DVDs and photographs.

STB.

STB. wrote: »

I see that Kelly's sister (Joan McKenna) is claiming that she is not the third named current director who is another person called Joan Burke McKenna.

The Irish World a news website for the Irish in Britain had to make an apology having been contacted by solictors on Kelly's sisters behalf.

We apologise to Mr Kelly’s sister for any entirely unintentional confusion or embarrassment caused to her by suggesting she was a director of Console given she tells us she is not and has never been and informs us she has never benefitted from the charity.

That page has since been taken down altogether (thanks google cache)

Yet under former directors.....

https://companycheck.co.uk/company/IE431245/CONSOLE-SUICIDE-BEREAVEMENT-COUNSELLING-LIMITED/directors-secretaries

Confusing, just a little bit.

Independent are reporting that Kelly's sister, Joan McKenna is denying any involvement, and senior counsel for Console says there's a suggestion that her signature was forged.

She has made some application to the court, the nature of which is not reported. Very unfair on her, if that is the case.

paulbok

The Kelly solicitor is called Jimmy MacGuill. :-o
Better call Saul

Cunning Stunt

..yeah, Paul K. admitted to a psychiatric hospital, and his solicitor says getting any info from him could take quite some time. FFS - this is taking the p*ss :mad:

Old Bill

Looks like Kelly is playing the mental health card.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0705/800292-console-court/

The court heard Paul Kelly is a patient in a psychiatric hospital and is unable to give instructions to a solicitor.

Their solicitor James MacGuill said Paul Kelly was likely to be in hospital for some time and he needed more time to deal with the case.

Cunning Stunt

Old Bill wrote: »

Looks like Kelly is playing the mental health card.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0705/800292-console-court/

Lets' hope he doesn't have to ring the Console helpline...

Shint0

riclad wrote: »

All wages for charitys need to be published online .
Also admin costs ,running expenses vs how much money is spent on children, etc the people
the charity is meant to help .

Income and expenditure are already published in annual reports most of which can be viewed online although they wouldn't have the breakdown of that level of detail.

It would be unfair to highlight the salaries of individual members of staff as that could be seen as a breach of data protection and wouldn't happen in other sectors just because CEOs and upper management are creaming it off. There does need to be more careful monitoring of expenditure and mandatory publication of CEOs' salary where there is a substantial percentage of public funding and where the salary exceeds a certain threshold.

Interesting to see that Paul Kelly is claiming stress-related issues now that he has been exposed. Angela Kerins pulled exactly the same tactic.

bernard0368

Just curious, Has this changed anybodies contributions to charity.
I ask as it has made me think very hard.

I mentioned earlier that I gave Console around €5k over two years (that wont happen again).
I also gave the same with Pieta house and to a much lesser degree Cycle for suicide.

This all came out a bonus savings and topped up a little by some of my family.
I usually do this over the next month or two, I will be honest I am struggling what to do.

Mary63

What is cycle for Suicide,is this organised by a different charity to Console.

How many charities do we have dealing with suicide.

Shint0

bernard0368 wrote: »

Just curious, Has this changed anybodies contributions to charity.
I ask as it has made me think very hard.

I mentioned earlier that I gave Console around €5k over two years (that wont happen again).
I also gave the same with Pieta house and to a much lesser degree Cycle for suicide.

This all came out a bonus savings and topped up a little by some of my family.
I usually do this over the next month or two, I will be honest I am struggling what to do.

That's really generous and a significant amount. Probably best to hold off with any further donations to Console, at least, until we know more about the state of play but it will probably bring more organisations under the spotlight such as Pieta House although I have never heard of any shady practices there. Then again you never know but the head of that organisation seems very genuine and committed.

Old Bill

Old Bill wrote: »

Looks like Kelly is playing the mental health card.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0705/800292-console-court/

In fairness, a psychiatric hospital won't admit someone for shits and giggles.

Not to act the armchair shrink or anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if Kelly has a personality disorder.

Mary63 wrote: »

How many charities do we have dealing with suicide.

I heard a figure of about 230 on RTE Radio this week. A ridiculous waste of resources.

bernard0368

bernard0368 wrote: »

Just curious, Has this changed anybodies contributions to charity.
I ask as it has made me think very hard.

I mentioned earlier that I gave Console around €5k over two years (that wont happen again).
I also gave the same with Pieta house and to a much lesser degree Cycle for suicide.

This all came out a bonus savings and topped up a little by some of my family.
I usually do this over the next month or two, I will be honest I am struggling what to do.

If anything, I'd be more inclined to donate to Console than any other suicide charity. The spotlight is really on them now, and they're being monitored in a way that other charities are not.

brooke 2

Mary63 wrote: »

What is cycle for Suicide,is this organised by a different charity to Console.

How many charities do we have dealing with suicide.

200+ dealing with suicide, I believe! Incredible!!

VinLieger

Any word of what was found in that lockup yet?

Samaris

bernard0368 wrote: »

Just curious, Has this changed anybodies contributions to charity.
I ask as it has made me think very hard.

I mentioned earlier that I gave Console around €5k over two years (that wont happen again).
I also gave the same with Pieta house and to a much lesser degree Cycle for suicide.

This all came out a bonus savings and topped up a little by some of my family.
I usually do this over the next month or two, I will be honest I am struggling what to do.

That is a tough situation to be in, and it's obviously a subject that means a lot to you given your donations. It's also an awful betrayal to people like you that this Kelly lowlife has abused the trust placed in him by so many.

All I can say is that the chap that's taken over seems to have the good of the charity to mind and appears to be ensuring/highlighting that more transparency is needed. That people are still donating will be a huge boost of morale to the ordinary decent people working there that have been deeply betrayed as well. But ultimately, it's nothing I can answer.

gctest50

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

In fairness, a psychiatric hospital won't admit someone for shits and giggles....

All anyone would have to say is they feel suicidal with their name in the papers


sure he could manage it after this stunt :

Ballyfermot-born Kelly made headlines for another reason in 1983 when he was given the Probation Act for pretending to be a doctor at the Royal City of Dublin Hospital in Baggot Street for three weeks.

VincePP

There should be different categories for differen type of "charity" groups.

Being described as a "Charity" probably doesn't suit the likes of John of God, Rehab, St. michales House, CRC and a host of private schools, hospitals etc.

A "not for profit" organisation is probably a better way to describe them.

Groups such as ALONE (my own favourite), Samaritans, St Vincent de Paul, PeterMcVerry trust etc, probably suit the word "Charity" to describe them.

Console seems to have been run criminally to further the lifestyle and wealth of the Kelly's with token regard to suicide prevention - and in most cases you'd have a small amount of pity for someone who is now put so negar=tively in he public eye, but neither he nor his wife or son have even tried to say "sorry" - worse still, even after they were found out, they still committed illegal acts by hiding / destroying evidence.

Sorry, but the book must be thrown at them.

Shint0

gctest50 wrote: »

All anyone would have to say is they feel suicidal with their name in the papers


sure he could manage it after this stunt :

The lesson learned from that is if any private individual is setting up an organisation to work with vulnerable people and applying for public funding there ought to be a background check and Garda Clearance. He clearly was a master at operating under the radar and using his sister's suicide to profit financially.

gctest50

gctest50 wrote: »

All anyone would have to say is they feel suicidal with their name in the papers

I don't think admission to a psychiatric hospital is assured simply by declaring that you feeling suicidal. We all know how under-resourced the clinical psychiatric services are.

I don't think adverse publicity has much to do with it, either.

If psychiatrists believe that Paul Kelly needs to be in hospital, then that's where he should be. I hope he gets well soon, and is then dealt with by the authorities.

Simon2015

gctest50 wrote: »

sure he could manage it after this stunt :

I can't believe that pretending to be a Doctor is not a more serious offence you think they would have given him a suspended sentence and a criminal record at the very least.

gctest50

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't think admission to a psychiatric hospital is assured simply by declaring that you feeling suicidal. We all know how under-resourced the clinical psychiatric services are.

I don't think adverse publicity has much to do with it, either.

If psychiatrists believe that Paul Kelly needs to be in hospital, then that's where he should be. I hope he gets well soon, and is then dealt with by the authorities.

gctest50 wrote: »

Comedy Gold :

whole college full of paddy psychiatrists & no-one spotted yer mans a looper ?

http://bit.ly/29bhIeU

He'd be well got there hai




We should just pay this lad to stay in character and vote him in - at least you know where you'd be :

Shint0

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't think admission to a psychiatric hospital is assured simply by declaring that you feeling suicidal. We all know how under-resourced the clinical psychiatric services are.

I don't think adverse publicity has much to do with it, either.

If psychiatrists believe that Paul Kelly needs to be in hospital, then that's where he should be. I hope he gets well soon, and is then dealt with by the authorities.

Generally speaking, where someone operates as a con artist or has a certain type of personality disorder which lends itself to that type of behaviour, hospitalisation would not be a purposeful intervention for that type of issue except the resultant stress they brought on themselves from their own behaviour.

The question to be asked in these type of situations is whether they experience guilt or remorse for their actions.