Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Warning Post #6863

Pro. F

Minderbinder wrote: »

If a centre back is relatively small and doesn't have a good jump then it's the best thing he can do to be fair. Blind isn't going to win a lot against forwards over 6 foot. The best thing he can do is don't commit, survey the scene and be in position for the second ball. Alternatively challenge for the ball knowing you can't win it but put enough pressure on the forward so he can't direct it where he would like.

I know the defender with multiple breaks on his nose who competes for everything is lauded but not every defender has the attributes for that and it doesn't mean they can't be effective.

Who are these CBs who are effective while not competing for high balls played into their zones? Any of them play top level football last season?

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

Everton nullified Lukaku by not supporting him. If Lukaku had had anything like proper support we would have been torn apart off the balls he won.

Martinez and his "tactics".....brutal

Adamcp898

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't say that he played well in all the games he played in CM, I said that he controlled and passed the ball very well. There were other important aspects missing from his game, which is understandable given how LVG hampered every midfielder and forward in the team.

I suspect that you are conflating CM with the two sitting CMs in a 4231, hence you not being able to remember all the times Fell played in CM (edit) that I'm talking about. He got most of his CM games as one of two box-to-box CMs in front of a DM.

So it'd be fine for him to help control possession but overall have a bad game and still get his place ahead of someone else?

I agree with how LvG throttled our midfield, but he also played to Fellaini's strengths in a number of other games as well. Smalling's the biggest example of how a decent player can be made to look great once the system is designed to account for his weaknesses.

But my original post that you quoted was about 4-2-3-1. I don't expect us to line up with a system designed around 3 centre halves under Mourinho a la the first year under LvG so that's fairly irrelevant.

Pro. F wrote: »

Who are these CBs who are effective while not competing for high balls played into their zones? Any of them play top level football last season?

Mascherano is the only one in recent times that has played well at CB whilst lacking size that I can remember. But he's a good deal quicker than Blind and it's Barca so a bit of a misnomer automatically anyway.

Completely agree with what you've said up until now re: Blind at CB btw, just offering the example.

stesaurus

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Martinez and his "tactics".....brutal

Have to say I fell for his ability and was wrong. I saw an improvement in Everton's ability going forward and overall attractiveness of his style of play compared with Moyes' Everton. I assumed he was capable of eventually tying that into a strong defensive unit and becoming a top level coach.
Boy was I was wrong!

Headshot

Classy from Gary.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/sport/national-sport/gary-neville-produced-a-fantastic-gesture-in-paul-mcgraths-charity-auction/2502948/?ref=yfp

billyhead

I understand Pogba needs an extended holiday after the Euros and thats what is more then likely holding up the announcement etc but he will not be match fit for the crucial start of the new season and we cant afford to start off dropping points. If he was really motivated to join us would he not have could his hols short to complete the signing/medical find accomodation and get to know and train with his new team mates and be available for selection from the beginning. Hes reportedly going to be earning £300,000 a week with this deal and 7 million a year in marketing:eek:

Minderbinder

Pro. F wrote: »

Who are these CBs who are effective while not competing for high balls played into their zones? Any of them play top level football last season?

I'm talking about ball playing centre halves and not necessarily defenders who never challenge aerially. Obviously as another poster said this requires more pace and a better reading of the game.

It is just strange to me to think that a defender should be expected to challenge for a header he is unlikely to win but if he challenges for a ball on the ground and loses out people say he committed too early and dived in etc. That happened Chris Smalling a few times last season where if he held his ground it would have made it a lot more difficult for the opposition to create something.

Most long balls being pumped up the field are not dangerous and I think there is something to be said for stepping back, allowing the forward to flick it on and being there to collect it, rather than risking losing the challenge and being left completely out of the game.

Obviously I'm talking about straight long balls here and not angled deliveries or crosses.

jayo26

Tuanzeebe playing for the u21s tonight against Oldham who have named a good few first team players.

Adamocovic

jayo26 wrote: »

Tuanzeebe playing for the u21s tonight against Oldham who have named a good few first team players.

No Januzaj, Bastian or Periera either.

Kerrydude1981

"We cant hold them back forever"

What a line from Mike Smalling

jayo26

Adamocovic wrote: »

No Januzaj, Bastian or Periera either.

Januzaj is on strike until he is allowed join Sunderland

IncognitoMan

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

"We cant hold them back forever"

What a line from Mike Smalling

What's this about?

jayo26

IncognitoMan wrote: »

What's this about?

The independence day add that's on MUTV.

Adamocovic

IncognitoMan wrote: »

What's this about?

https://twitter.com/FootballFunnys/status/760477999351394305

jayo26

M!Ck^ wrote: »

https://twitter.com/FootballFunnys/status/760477999351394305

jayo26 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PbakP/status/759473658230341636?s=09

Laughed at this

Heyaaaaa zerks

StringerBell

Who are BBC Sporf? Are they anything like BBC Sport?

Edit: Looked closer, I think I can guess whats going on here... .... .... ... .. ..

Trigger

StringerBell wrote: »

Who are BBC Sporf? Are they anything like BBC Sport?

They are a piss take

Pro. F

Adamcp898 wrote: »

So it'd be fine for him to help control possession but overall have a bad game and still get his place ahead of someone else?

I was obviously not saying that. Everybody suffered under LVG and everybody should improve under a better manager.

I said that Fellaini controlled and used possession well in central midfield while acknowledging that there were other problems. Those problems affected the whole team and came from the manager's poor management. Things like lack of off the ball movement, lack of numbers committed forward, lack of sensible attacking plans, etc. There's no reason to think that everybody else will improve in those areas now that LVG is gone but Fellaini won't benefit as well.

Adamcp898 wrote: »

I agree with how LvG throttled our midfield, but he also played to Fellaini's strengths in a number of other games as well. Smalling's the biggest example of how a decent player can be made to look great once the system is designed to account for his weaknesses.

But my original post that you quoted was about 4-2-3-1. I don't expect us to line up with a system designed around 3 centre halves under Mourinho a la the first year under LvG so that's fairly irrelevant.

You're missing the point. You're making out that Fellaini's strengths are only those used to be a target man, but you're ignoring all the good possession play he has shown in CM. You said that Fellaini doesn't have the skills to play in an entertaining and winning team. Assuming that the football you are talking about involves good possession in midfileld then Fellaini does have those skills. You can see that any time you watch him playing in CM (rather than as a target man, which he's not even that good at since he's not a big goal threat).

The fact that he was playing in a slightly different system when he was a CM is not relevant. The CM role he had in those 433s still required the same skills and was extremely close in all regards to the more forward thinking CM of the 2 in a 4231.

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Mascherano is the only one in recent times that has played well at CB whilst lacking size that I can remember. But he's a good deal quicker than Blind and it's Barca so a bit of a misnomer automatically anyway.

Completely agree with what you've said up until now re: Blind at CB btw, just offering the example.

Yep, Macherano is probably the most high profile example and, as you say, he's much faster and playing in an unusual team. And when you actually look at his heading (59.68% aerial duels won) he's miles ahead of Blind (38.64%).

Adamcp898

Pro. F wrote: »

I was obviously not saying that. Everybody suffered under LVG and everybody should improve under a better manager.

I said that Fellaini controlled and used possession well in central midfield while acknowledging that there were other problems. Those problems affected the whole team and came from the manager's poor management. Things like lack of off the ball movement, lack of numbers committed forward, lack of sensible attacking plans, etc. There's no reason to think that everybody else will improve in those areas now that LVG is gone but Fellaini won't benefit as well.

My point was you're ignoring the inverse argument. i.e. you can't say he looked good in possession and only looked bad in other areas because of poor management because there were matches where we set up with him as a focal point and thus he was more likely than not to "look good". Thus, it's possible that perhaps management in those games made him look better than he otherwise would've been without the same emphasis

Pro. F wrote: »

You're missing the point. You're making out that Fellaini's strengths are only those used to be a target man, but you're ignoring all the good possession play he has shown in CM. You said that Fellaini doesn't have the skills to play in an entertaining and winning team. Assuming that the football you are talking about involves good possession in midfileld then Fellaini does have those skills. You can see that any time you watch him playing in CM (rather than as a target man, which he's not even that good at since he's not a big goal threat).

The fact that he was playing in a slightly different system when he was a CM is not relevant. The CM role he had in those 433s still required the same skills and was extremely close in all regards to the more forward thinking CM of the 2 in a 4231.

It's you that is missing the point. The system is relevant because you made it the crux of your argument. I was talking about the midfield two in a 4231 and you decided to reference a heap of games with a different system like they're the same thing.

Pro. F wrote: »

Yep, Macherano is probably the most high profile example and, as you say, he's much faster and playing in an unusual team. And when you actually look at his heading (59.68% aerial duels won) he's miles ahead of Blind (38.64%).

Not surprising he's still well ahead of him. Wouldn't get too hung up on the numbers though, the context of those headers won is king i.e. how many were just "escape" balls from the opposition and how many were part of a defined attacking plan.

bangkok

Would have liked us to sign Sane but he's gone to city, if we sign pogba and already signed mkhitarayan I won't be too disappointed

Pro. F

Minderbinder wrote: »

I'm talking about ball playing centre halves and not necessarily defenders who never challenge aerially. Obviously as another poster said this requires more pace and a better reading of the game.

It is just strange to me to think that a defender should be expected to challenge for a header he is unlikely to win but if he challenges for a ball on the ground and loses out people say he committed too early and dived in etc. That happened Chris Smalling a few times last season where if he held his ground it would have made it a lot more difficult for the opposition to create something.

Most long balls being pumped up the field are not dangerous and I think there is something to be said for stepping back, allowing the forward to flick it on and being there to collect it, rather than risking losing the challenge and being left completely out of the game.

Obviously I'm talking about straight long balls here and not angled deliveries or crosses.

Centre-backs who are unlikely to win headers when competing against anyone over 6 foot are bad. There's nothing strange about that. Just like any other skill in football, if it's an essential skill, a player not doing it because he's bad at it and knows he'll fail doesn't make him a good player.

Ball playing centre-backs are great. You said that not all CBs need to have broken noses, but I'd be surprised if you could actually point to any that are good but stand off from aerial challenges like you describe.

Long balls pumped up the field are certainly dangerous if the CBs don't come and meet them. One of the most basic instructions that all CBs get is that you cannot stand-off from a direct long ball coming down your channel.

You imagine that a CB can just stand off and that the forward will flick it on and then the CB can collect it. But if a CB isn't challenging then the forward will:
a) Just let the ball bounce and turn to face and run at the opposition goal. Really bad things happen often when the ball bounces like this and it's largely down to luck; not something a defender can rely on.
b) Trap the ball, turn on it and run at the defence.
c) Trap the ball and lay it off to an on-rushing teammate.
d) Lay it off first time.

All these things are bad and all of them are prevented by the CB going and winning the ball at the first opportunity. Even if he fails to win the ball, making the forward have to compete for it limits what they can do.

Your comparison to CBs competing for the ball on the ground is flawed because we aren't talking about the instances when a CB shouldn't compete for the ball, we're talking about the times when they should, but Blind, because he's weak in the air, doesn't.

jayo26

Easy know pro f is back anyway. Each argument turns into a series of short stories

bangkok

Carrick won more of his headers last year than fellaini... Just saying

jayo26

bangkok wrote: »

Carrick won more of his headers last year than fellaini... Just saying

Haha you feeling left out of the argument today.

jayo26

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1214645661927733&id=245323855526590

The game tomorrow night is been streamed live on facebook on both rooneys page and the official united page.

IamtheWalrus

Surely we can forget about Pogba now? It's Tuesday night and nothing. Something's up. I think he's negotiating with Madrid.

Lithium93_

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Surely we can forget about Pogba now? It's Tuesday night and nothing. Something's up. I think he's negotiating with Madrid.

Or just enjoying his holiday in New York, if memory serves, Fergie also has a place in New York.. Make of that what you choose

adox

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Surely we can forget about Pogba now? It's Tuesday night and nothing. Something's up. I think he's negotiating with Madrid.

You've got to be joking?

Adamocovic

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Or just enjoying his holiday in New York, if memory serves, Fergie also has a place in New York.. Make of that what you choose

Oh my god, Fergie and Pogba are both joining Madrid!

Pro. F

Adamcp898 wrote: »

My point was you're ignoring the inverse argument. i.e. you can't say he looked good in possession and only looked bad in other areas because of poor management because there were matches where we set up with him as a focal point and thus he was more likely than not to "look good". Thus, it's possible that perhaps management in those games made him look better than he otherwise would've been without the same emphasis

The things Fellaini struggled with when played in CM are the same things he struggled with when played as a target man and the same things the whole team struggled with whether or not he was on the pitch. Lack of passing options and movement from players off the ball; lack of sensible organisation and lack of numbers committed forward. Unless you are saying that all the players have these flaws and so they are all not good enough, then there's no reason to think things won't improve with a better manager.

What games was the team set up to make Fellaini a focal point? It's not like you can set up a team in a way that makes a player have a good first touch and close control, both of which Fellaini has shown.

Adamcp898 wrote: »

It's you that is missing the point. The system is relevant because you made it the crux of your argument. I was talking about the midfield two in a 4231 and you decided to reference a heap of games with a different system like they're the same thing.

Of course they're the same thing. We're talking about a box-to-box CM in a 433, versus a box-to-box CM in a 4231. The differences are neglible.

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Not surprising he's still well ahead of him. Wouldn't get too hung up on the numbers though, the context of those headers won is king i.e. how many were just "escape" balls from the opposition and how many were part of a defined attacking plan.

Yeah, context is important.

Nalz

jayo26 wrote: »

Easy know pro f is back anyway. Each argument turns into a series of short stories

Pro. F

jayo26 wrote: »

Easy know pro f is back anyway. Each argument turns into a series of short stories

Would you rather endless shítposts about positivity trains?

jayo26

Pro. F wrote: »

Would you rather endless shítposts about positivity trains?

Hey chill I actually enjoy most of your posts I was saying it in positive way ... choo choo

Adamocovic

Pro. F wrote: »

Would you rather endless shítposts about positivity trains?

Trigger

Found that debate pretty interesting today and it takes away from the endless Pogba chatter atm. Some well thought out arguements on both sides..

I know I'm one of the main posters of gifs and tweets but I cannot wait for the window to close and the football discussions to be like this every day.. season starts this week too

Pro. F

jayo26 wrote: »

Hey chill I actually enjoy most of your posts I was saying it in positive way ... choo choo

It's annoying to have people commenting on your posting style.

Adamocovic

Anyone watching United reserves? Got knocked out by Oldham there in penalties.

Demetri Mitchell tried a cheeky chip penalty and just messed it up, sent it over the crossbar. Don't think he'll be too pleased about that.

Pro. F

astradave wrote: »

Found that debate pretty interesting today and it takes away from the endless Pogba chatter atm. Some well thought out arguements on both sides..

I know I'm one of the main posters of gifs and tweets but I cannot wait for the window to close and the football discussions to be like this every day.. season starts this week too

Yeah, I don't actually mind the fun posts tbh. When there's nothing to discuss, there's nothing else to post.

jayo26

Pro. F wrote: »

It's annoying to have people commenting on your posting style.

I don't really care to be honest.. I was saying it because I was enjoying your posting today if you want to be annoyed by that we'll that's your problem.

Trigger

Is there a ff for the United Superthread this year? Haven't set up my team yet and the money league I'm in finished last year. Who was it that set it up last season?

jayo26

astradave wrote: »

Is there a ff for the United Superthread this year? Haven't set up my team yet and the money league I'm in finished last year. Who was it that set it up last season?

Was it yermandan by any chance?

Trigger

jayo26 wrote: »

Was it yermandan by any chance?

Think you might be right there.. Dan if your looking at the thread.. what's the feckin story with this year!

jayo26

astradave wrote: »

Think you might be right there.. Dan if your looking at the thread.. what's the feckin story with this year!

Haven't seen him liking any posts today yet haha.

alchemist33

The free United thread league and the pay league have both been re-opened, meaning dan and whoever started the free league have both renewed their leagues. Dan hasn't posted about it yet though, re payment or even if he wants to run it again.

Adamcp898

Pro. F wrote: »

The things Fellaini struggled with when played in CM are the same things he struggled with when played as a target man and the same things the whole team struggled with whether or not he was on the pitch. Lack of passing options and movement from players off the ball; lack of sensible organisation and lack of numbers committed forward. Unless you are saying that all the players have these flaws and so they are all not good enough, then there's no reason to think things won't improve with a better manager.

What games was the team set up to make Fellaini a focal point? It's not like you can set up a team in a way that makes a player have a good first touch and close control, both of which Fellaini has shown.

What about all those games where he was allowed drift ahead of the ball towards the opposition 18 yard line and we'd hit diagonals at him for instance?

And c'mon you can't say anyone that has a decent first touch has the ability to be a good CM otherwise there'd be a hell of lot more of us making a living at it.

Pro. F wrote: »

Of course they're the same thing. We're talking about a box-to-box CM in a 433, versus a box-to-box CM in a 4231. The differences are neglible.

Then why did you decide to make a distinction in the first place?

And there is no real difference between a LvG 433 and a LvG 4231 either, the man himself has even used them interchangeably in the same interviews.

bangkok

I still think both januzaj and fellaini will end up at Sunderland on transfer deadline day and maybe also Keane on loan.

I think we could see another signing or 2 on the way in as well

bangkok

Pro f I see you saying fellaini has a good first touch a few times, at any level of football from underage all the way up to senior at any grade, that is the most basic attribute any player can have. I wouldn't be praising a Man Utd player for having a good first touch, in fact if they didn't they shouldn't be even playing football at the top level

IamtheWalrus

adox wrote: »

You've got to be joking?

Deadly serious.

Trigger

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

adox wrote: »

You've got to be joking?

Deadly serious.

Why? What makes you come to that conclusion?