Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Warning Post #6863

Adamcp898

Pro. F wrote: »

Bollocks.

First paragraph of yours in that post, that I quoted and responded to separately:
"No you asked for games where he was made the focal point."

Second paragraph, which I responded to separately, where you mention your inverse argument point:
"My original point still stands irrespective of position; you can't make one argument saying that he played well and would've been better if it weren't for mismanagement and then ignore the inverse. The very fact that the coach has changed and the systems, roles etc. along with it make that point moot anyway tbh."

They are clearly two different points. One about who said what in our conversation, the other point being your actual argument about how we can't read positives from Fellaini's performances in CM because LVG's management might have been helping him play better.

And by the way, you still haven't addressed the counter argument I put to you on that issue. Namely:
"So we can't point out positives from any players' performances last season as a reason to believe they can be good this season?"

Instead, choosing to discuss who said what and why. You've been spoofing your arse off trying to discuss anything other than the actual topic being debated. It got so bad that I had to start asking you direct questions about Fellaini's ability, to try to get it back on track.

No they are not two separate points, you actually have quoted the key part above "irrespective of position" which linked the two to begin with.

Why would I address all of these points you keep making based on false reasoning from my posts? I'm obviously going to attempt to correct you first instead of going along with it.

Pro. F wrote: »

Sure I did. You keep telling yourself that you haven't been making the argument that Fellaini lacks the skills to play CM in a team playing attractive football. Eventually you'll believe it.

I'm glad we've covered all this bollocks that you introduced to the conversation now. I've addressed everything you brought up and showed the flaws in various arguments you made. You've decided against defending those arguments. Fair enough, at least it's all been covered now and we can get back to discussing Fellaini in CM.

Keep clawing for that high ground there anyway, don't let me stop you. One of those fallacies will get you there

By the way this is why your arguments sound completely copy and pasted from something you read or heard somewhere and not actually your own. You attempt to phrase everything you say as if you hold some authority on the subject (and on a message board of all places) but once the slightest bit of doubt creeps in you reach for bull**** lines like "It got so bad that I had to start asking you direct questions about Fellaini's ability, to try to get it back on track." in order to try and reaffirm yourself.

Pro. F wrote: »

I more or less agree with you on his defensive nous. I think he could, possibly, with suitable management, carry more defensive responsibility, but he's no guarantee in that department just yet. But you only need one DM type in any of these formations anyway, so that would be no reason in its self for him to not play.

Regarding his skill in possession, you are badly underestimating him imo. But since you have expressed the opinion that the relevant skills (first touch, close control, etc) are relatively uniform amongst all top level CMs, then that's hardly surprising.

"But since you have expressed the opinion that the relevant skills (first touch, close control, etc) are relatively uniform amongst all top level CMs, then that's hardly surprising."

This is what I mean about you pulling inferences and complete **** from nowhere in order to make yourself appear more well versed than you actually are.

I never once said that one either, like nothing even close to it. And yet here you are spouting more bollocks based on something you drummed up. It's crazy.

Mitch Connor

Hasn't ProF spent many a post showing why Carrick is a poor top level CM - particularly because of his first touch, yet Fellaini is a good enough CM?

Am I mixing up posters?

bangkok

magnumbud wrote: »

10 million pounds so shy of 15 but could get into a bidding war. would stick a €25 million buyback clause and if he has a good run for 2 or 3 years bring him back

Why 25m and not a 5 or 10m buyback. We are the selling club, it's up to us what clauses we want

Julez

bangkok wrote: »

Why 25m and not a 5 or 10m buyback. We are the selling club, it's up to us what clauses we want

If you were buying my lollipop for 10p, but I said that you have to sell it back to me for 5p if I want, would you accept that deal?

Trigger

Is today the day

https://twitter.com/TeleFootball/status/761148854955806720

Also a poster on Redcafe is saying he say a Chopper land at OT at 10.30 this morning

magnumbud

astradave wrote: »

Is today the day

https://twitter.com/TeleFootball/status/761148854955806720

sometime in the next 48 hours :pac:

bangkok wrote: »

Why 25m and not a 5 or 10m buyback. We are the selling club, it's up to us what clauses we want

why would a club buy him for 15 if we could buy him back for 5 or 10 or even a return 15. its also paying the club for developing him.

jayo26

astradave wrote: »

Is today the day

https://twitter.com/TeleFootball/status/761148854955806720

Also a poster on Redcafe is saying he say a Chopper land at OT at 10.30 this morning

He was also kicking the crap out of a lad few hours ago wearing blue I think he is joining Everton

Trigger

jayo26 wrote: »

He was also kicking the crap out of a lad few hours ago wearing blue I think he is joining Everton

https://www.instagram.com/p/BIrbFRAj-nm/

I was thinking about this.. it was posted at 9am if it was in new York it was 4am.. don't think the gym was open at 4am and that it was bright outside

It's to throw people off the scent..

Hotblack Desiato

brinty wrote: »

I'm in charge of the positivity plane dude
Jayo26 is the pilot
MarsBar and CookieDough are the air hostesses

:pac:

bangkok

Julez wrote: »

If you were buying my lollipop for 10p, but I said that you have to sell it back to me for 5p if I want, would you accept that deal?

When clubs are desperate for players they will do anything, apparently Sunderland only have 9 fit first team players, I would expect them to make a few crazy bids in the next few weeks

Lord TSC

bangkok wrote: »

When clubs are desperate for players they will do anything, apparently Sunderland only have 9 fit first team players, I would expect them to make a few crazy bids in the next few weeks

If you think any team will buy a player for 25m with a buy back of 5 or 10m, you are absolutely crazy. It would be idiotic on a massive scale and no team would ever even propose such a deal, let alone a club accept it. I'd worry bout anyone who seriously though any team would see that as viable....

Pro. F

Adamcp898 wrote: »

No they are not two separate points, you actually have quoted the key part above "irrespective of position" which linked the two to begin with.

Why would I address all of these points you keep making based on false reasoning from my posts? I'm obviously going to attempt to correct you first instead of going along with it.

Keep clawing for that high ground there anyway, don't let me stop you. One of those fallacies will get you there

By the way this is why your arguments sound completely copy and pasted from something you read or heard somewhere and not actually your own. You attempt to phrase everything you say as if you hold some authority on the subject (and on a message board of all places) but once the slightest bit of doubt creeps in you reach for bull**** lines like "It got so bad that I had to start asking you direct questions about Fellaini's ability, to try to get it back on track." in order to try and reaffirm yourself.

"But since you have expressed the opinion that the relevant skills (first touch, close control, etc) are relatively uniform amongst all top level CMs, then that's hardly surprising."

This is what I mean about you pulling inferences and complete **** from nowhere in order to make yourself appear more well versed than you actually are.

I never once said that one either, like nothing even close to it. And yet here you are spouting more bollocks based on something you drummed up. It's crazy.

Every single sentence in your post here refers to who said what; an attack on my posting style or my character. Not a single one related to Fellaini, his skill or the technical discussion of the position.

I could carry on responding to your distractions, trying to pin you down to what you have said and proving you wrong about what I supposedly haven't addressed, etc, but I don't need to.

I tried to be polite with you from the start, but you constantly moved the topic from Fellaini to questions of how the conversation was being conducted. You have spoofed constantly about anything other than the topic. I'm done wasting my time trying to discuss Fellaini with you. If you ever manage to get back to discussing Fellaini, then I might respond to that.

Trigger

Lord TSC wrote: »

If you think any team will buy a player for 25m with a buy back of 5 or 10m, you are absolutely crazy. It would be idiotic on a massive scale and no team would ever even propose such a deal, let alone a club accept it. I'd worry bout anyone who seriously though any team would see that as viable....

Sunderland"here's 25m for Jan"

United"here's your player"

United 5 mins later "here's the 5m buy back clause for Jan"

20m Profit

Pro. F

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Hasn't ProF spent many a post showing why Carrick is a poor top level CM - particularly because of his first touch, yet Fellaini is a good enough CM?

Am I mixing up posters?

Nope, that's me.

Do you think there is an contradiction in those two arguments?

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

When clubs are desperate for players they will do anything, apparently Sunderland only have 9 fit first team players, I would expect them to make a few crazy bids in the next few weeks

From what I've heard (just people talking about them on Twitter, not inside scoops or anything) they have very little money too. If that's true then there'll be no crazy bids and they are beyond fùcked.

v3ttel

I'm happy enough to sell Januzaj, but we should follow the Barcelona & Real Madrid model of inserting buy back clauses more often, as others have said. I don't remember if we've ever done it, but it really protects the club if he does kick on and fulfill his potential.

They don't generally wait for players whose development seems to have stalled to come good for longer than a season or two. Januzaj definitely falls into that category. Those clubs have done that for Morata, Bojan, Deulofeu, Dos Santos, Halilovic, etc. No reason we can't do that too.

The meltdowns after the game are bad, and you should feel bad

Adamocovic

No one is really talking about the big issue if Pogba signs.

He likes to dab, it's mostly his go to celebration, but Jesse has claimed that as his own hence even doing it for advertisement etc. I hope Mourinho bans it before a rift is caused over who can use it. :pac:

bangkok

Lord TSC wrote: »

If you think any team will buy a player for 25m with a buy back of 5 or 10m, you are absolutely crazy. It would be idiotic on a massive scale and no team would ever even propose such a deal, let alone a club accept it. I'd worry bout anyone who seriously though any team would see that as viable....

No chance of that...original post said if we sold for 10 put the buy back at 25, I said why so high, put it at 5 or 10...same price we sold at

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

From what I've heard (just people talking about them on Twitter, not inside scoops or anything) they have very little money too. If that's true then there'll be no crazy bids and they are beyond fùcked.

Don't know what sort of debts they have etc, but they are guaranteed 100m from the premier league alone so you would imagine they would spend at least 30-40m before deadline.

Adamocovic

bangkok wrote: »

No chance of that...original post said if we sold for 10 put the buy back at 25, I said why so high, put it at 5 or 10...same price we sold at

Generally speaking buy back clauses are a value higher than the value you sold the player for, it's in the case that if a player excels at the club and starts getting interest you get the option to buy him before anyone else, so that would be a sum greater than you sold him for.

Now I could be proven wrong here but I don't know of any buy back clauses in the past that have been less than the value that the player was sold for. Yes teams can buy a player back for less but for a specific buy back clause I've never heard of one being less personally and that would seem to negate the purpose of the clause.

If it's a clause where we would be able to match any bids, potentially you could end up paying less, though unlikely they will sell him on for cheaper unless he was doing poorly and at that point would we want to bring him back, but if it is a case of a buy back release clause (i.e figure where they would have to accept it) then no club is going to accept a figure less than they paid themselves.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

Don't know what sort of debts they have etc, but they are guaranteed 100m from the premier league alone so you would imagine they would spend at least 30-40m before deadline.

That's not what I've been reading in discussions of their potential transfers. I don't know how reliable the info is though, so it's just wait and see. You would think there must have been some serious mismanagement if these financial problems are that bad.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

That's not what I've been reading in discussions of their potential transfers. I don't know how reliable the info is though, so it's just wait and see. You would think there must have been some serious mismanagement if these financial problems are that bad.

May wait and see I suppose, but I can't imagine moyes wasn't given some guarantees when he took the job on. If they don't sign 3-4 players at least I would surprised if they stayed up this season

Vic Vinegar

Overreaction much?

Jose Mourinho: Man Utd boss 'should be jailed' for 'bullying' Bastian Schweinsteiger

Manchester United manager Jose Mourinho should be sent to jail for "bullying" Bastian Schweinsteiger, says a member of world players' union FifPro.

The midfielder, 32, signed a three-year deal in 2015 and played 31 games last term but has trained alone and with the Under-23s since Mourinho took over.

"It's clear bullying," Slovenia FifPro member Dejan Stefanovic told the BBC.

"In Slovenia, we would have indicted Mourinho and asked for the highest penalty - three years in prison."

Speaking to BBC World Service Sport, lawyer Stefanovic, who is also president of the Slovenian Footballers and Sportsmen Union added: "This is clearly meant to discourage Bastian.

"Mourinho is setting a bad example. I would take it to the ordinary court. In our case, the penal code is quite clear. If there is bullying and harassment, there's a prison sanction, a maximum of three years in prison.

"Schweinsteiger should turn to the Professional Footballers' Association and he should file a complaint and I would also seek penalty for Mourinho.

"All the players of the first team have to train with the coaches of the first team at the same place, at the same time as all other team-mates, that's something that should be applied to each and every club and should be written within Fifa regulations."

BBC Sport has contacted United about Stefanovic's claim but is yet to receive a reply.

Schweinsteiger, who has made 120 appearances for Germany, joined United from Bayern Munich.

He was left out of Mourinho's 25-man squad for last weekend's 5-2 friendly win over Galatasaray in Gothenburg and was not part of the 22 for Wayne Rooney's testimonial with Everton on Wednesday.

Schweinsteiger's brother Toby, assistant manager of Bayern Munich's Under-17s team sent a tweet on the evening of the Galatasaray match which said merely "no respect".

Bayern Munich president Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, another former Germany captain, said in German publication Bild: "One or two players are going to think long and hard in future about whether they want to go to such a club."

Son Of A Vidic

I'm not in the least bit worried about last night's performance or result. Jose also has no intention of showing his hand before the start of the season. Right now, it's all about increasing game time and raising the fitness level for players.

Mitch Connor

Pro. F wrote: »

Nope, that's me.

Do you think there is an contradiction in those two arguments?

Personal opinion is Carrick's technique and ability on the ball is way better than Fellaini. So I can't understand how someone could berate Carrick so much and defend Fellaini so staunchly. And I don't mind Fellaini.

Thepoet85

Vic Vinegar wrote:

Jose Mourinho: Man Utd boss 'should be jailed' for 'bullying' Bastian Schweinsteiger

Jesus it just shows how out of touch with reality some people in football are.

Earning hundreds of thousands of pounds per week, and being bullied into training with the youth team. God love him.

Imagine if some of those youths learned from one of the best midfielders of his generation!

Bullying? Dear Lord

Trigger

Reminds me of the Sepp Blatter and his slavery remarks.

magnumbud

Thepoet85 wrote: »

Jesus it just shows how out of touch with reality some people in football are.

Earning hundreds of thousands of pounds per week, and being bullied into training with the youth team. God love him.

Imagine if some of those youths learned from one of the best midfielders of his generation!

Bullying? Dear Lord

bullying maybe the wrong name for it but its a pretty ****ty way to treat him, hes a footballing legend, like if he doesnt find a club by 31st of august is he gonna have to sit in the reserves til january?

Quandary

magnumbud wrote: »

bullying maybe the wrong name for it but its a pretty ****ty way to treat him, hes a footballing legend, like if he doesnt find a club by 31st of august is he gonna have to sit in the reserves til january?

If he gets fit and proves he is still able to contribute at the highest level he won't be in the reserves for long.

Footballers are too precious these days.

magnumbud

Quandary wrote: »

If he gets fit and proves he is still able to contribute at the highest level he won't be in the reserves for long.

Footballers are too precious these days.

not if they have already registered 25 players. why not just release him? or let him go for next to nothing? its not like we spent that much on him and it would be cheaper than him sitting in the reserves for 4-5 months at 200k a week

Quandary

magnumbud wrote: »

not if they have already registered 25 players. why not just release him? or let him go for next to nothing? its not like we spent that much on him and it would be cheaper than him sitting in the reserves for 4-5 months at 200k a week

If that's the case then for all we know the club are willing and looking to offload him. Plenty time left in the transfer window for him to get a move he's satisfied with.

By all accounts he's on a fairly hefty wage packet. I can't see the club leaving him rot in the reserves at such a cost to the wage bill.

bangkok

magnumbud wrote: »

bullying maybe the wrong name for it but its a pretty ****ty way to treat him, hes a footballing legend, like if he doesnt find a club by 31st of august is he gonna have to sit in the reserves til january?

Clubs would be queuing up if there was a chance they could sign him, he is still a class player, just not the player he once was

Hococop

I'm still standing by my statement of he is just put to the reserves for fitness and will be back with the squad in the next week or 2

Jayop

magnumbud wrote: »

not if they have already registered 25 players. why not just release him? or let him go for next to nothing? its not like we spent that much on him and it would be cheaper than him sitting in the reserves for 4-5 months at 200k a week

They can't release him if he doesn't want to go and he won't go unless he finds a club. We're not going to looking for a fee for him.

Son Of A Vidic

magnumbud wrote: »

bullying maybe the wrong name for it but its a pretty ****ty way to treat him, hes a footballing legend

I'd gladly take the obscene salary of a molly coddled footballer like him and get stuck in the reserves earning easy money. And if that's a shítty way to get treated? Then sign me up quick.

bangkok

Hococop wrote: »

I'm still standing by my statement of he is just put to the reserves for fitness and will be back with the squad in the next week or 2

No chance, did you not see his brothers tweet?

Pro. F

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Personal opinion is Carrick's technique and ability on the ball is way better than Fellaini. So I can't understand how someone could berate Carrick so much and defend Fellaini so staunchly. And I don't mind Fellaini.

I can understand why you would think that. Carrick is so damn elegant and measured when he's moving around looking for the ball and passing it. And Fellaini often looks clunky. On top of that, Carrick's passing (when taken in isolation) is a lot better.

But, imo, when it comes to receiving the ball under pressure and moving around with it in those tight spots Carrick is poor and Fellaini is good. Carrick actually avoids taking on those situations as much as possible. It's pretty impressive how disciplined he is to not try the really important thing that he is weak at doing.

If the pass played into him is slow, then he'll do more with it, but if it's anyway harder to deal with and he's under pressure then he'll only take the easiest of touches, or he'll pass it first time and not try to keep it at all. This makes it too easy for opposition players to control him when pressing, because where he puts the ball when controlling it is dictated to him, rather than him being able to consistently put the ball in a spot that makes life difficult for the defender. It also means that he can't relieve the pressure on his teammates (which is a very important job for CMs) because, while he can pass to them if they are open, he can't make them open by dragging defenders around and taking them out of the game.

Fellaini, by contrast, can receive a fast pass under pressure and control it where he wants it, where it will make life difficult for the opposition. And added to that Fellaini can run with the ball a bit and get around pressing that way too.

I should say, years have passed since I started criticising Carrick about this. In that time he has steadily gotten more skilful (this pretty much happens with all players if they aren't playing under someone like Pulis), so he's better at it now then he used to be. But he's still not good enough imo.

weisses

Adamocovic wrote: »

No one is really talking about the big issue if Pogba signs.

He likes to dab, it's mostly his go to celebration, but Jesse has claimed that as his own hence even doing it for advertisement etc. I hope Mourinho bans it before a rift is caused over who can use it. :pac:

No one owns it ?

That is the start posture for ice speed skating

sReq | uTeK

magnumbud wrote: »

bullying maybe the wrong name for it but its a pretty ****ty way to treat him, hes a footballing legend, like if he doesnt find a club by 31st of august is he gonna have to sit in the reserves til january?

As a player he was fantastic, as a United player to say he's been insignificant is an understatement. Half of me believes he's moved here to take a nice pay cheque before end of days occur and add the club for a means to sell a book or a memoir in the future.

If his attitude is anything to go by, regularly flying back to Germany on a weekly basis for long periods when injured then he's no loss to the club at all.

IamtheWalrus

Thepoet85 wrote: »

Jesus it just shows how out of touch with reality some people in football are.

Earning hundreds of thousands of pounds per week, and being bullied into training with the youth team. God love him.

Imagine if some of those youths learned from one of the best midfielders of his generation!

Bullying? Dear Lord

hashtag pray for basti?

Thepoet85

Hococop wrote:

I'm still standing by my statement of he is just put to the reserves for fitness and will be back with the squad in the next week or 2

I agree. He looked well off the pace at the Euros

master-t

Basti has been injured for a lot of the time he has been with us though, but I still don't see him having a future with us.

As for sending him to the reserves, Jose has been pretty clear from Day 1. He wants a small squad and for that squad to train and play together. If you are not in the squad, you are not in the team essentially.

World Cup winner or not, there's no room for egos. It would not come as a shock to Basti to learn he may be sold / shipped off.

There was no outcry for Januzaj being sent to the reserves.

Strumms

Hococop wrote: »

I'm still standing by my statement of he is just put to the reserves for fitness and will be back with the squad in the next week or 2

No other player went to train with the U23s to 'gain fitness'. He can do that just as easily with the main squad. Anyway the U23s are already playing competitive football so hardly just settling in at a canter they will be training hard too. He is on the way out, not part of JM's plans but the fact he has been relegated to train with the kids is well a bit unsat in my view.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Glad to see the Pogba deal was finally done today.

Maximus Alexander

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Glad to see the Pogba deal was finally done today.

48 hours. Jeez, have patience.

Lord TSC

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Glad to see the Pogba deal was finally done today.

Wait, the Daily Record was wrong? :pac:

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

I can understand why you would think that. Carrick is so damn elegant and measured when he's moving around looking for the ball and passing it. And Fellaini often looks clunky. On top of that, Carrick's passing (when taken in isolation) is a lot better.

But, imo, when it comes to receiving the ball under pressure and moving around with it in those tight spots Carrick is poor and Fellaini is good. Carrick actually avoids taking on those situations as much as possible. It's pretty impressive how disciplined he is to not try the really important thing that he is weak at doing.

If the pass played into him is slow, then he'll do more with it, but if it's anyway harder to deal with and he's under pressure then he'll only take the easiest of touches, or he'll pass it first time and not try to keep it at all. This makes it too easy for opposition players to control him when pressing, because where he puts the ball when controlling it is dictated to him, rather than him being able to consistently put the ball in a spot that makes life difficult for the defender. It also means that he can't relieve the pressure on his teammates (which is a very important job for CMs) because, while he can pass to them if they are open, he can't make them open by dragging defenders around and taking them out of the game.

Fellaini, by contrast, can receive a fast pass under pressure and control it where he wants it, where it will make life difficult for the opposition. And added to that Fellaini can run with the ball a bit and get around pressing that way too.

I should say, years have passed since I started criticising Carrick about this. In that time he has steadily gotten more skilful (this pretty much happens with all players if they aren't playing under someone like Pulis), so he's better at it now then he used to be. But he's still not good enough imo.

http://rebrn.com/re/marouane-fellainis-sublime-skill-against-bayern-last-night-608786/

bangkok

Strumms wrote: »

No other player went to train with the U23s to 'gain fitness'. He can do that just as easily with the main squad. Anyway the U23s are already playing competitive football so hardly just settling in at a canter they will be training hard too. He is on the way out, not part of JM's plans but the fact he has been relegated to train with the kids is well a bit unsat in my view.

its a process, part of the philosophy

Trigger

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Glad to see the Pogba deal was finally done today.

Still reckon it's going to be announced today.. Ben Hibbs who basically runs the website just followed him on twitter and so did Mandy from MUTV