Dangerous dog biting people

skywanderer

This is something I've become very concerned about and I'd like to ask peoples opinions of it.

Last November my father got a small sheepdog collie puppy (male) of about 6 weeks old from a Neighboring farmer; I actually thought the pup should have been left with the mother for at least another month but nonetheless.

My sister loves all animals and as soon as she saw the pup she was all about it and my father left her keep and care for it as the pup was too young to to go to the farm with the other working dogs. Apparently the dog is from a great breed of working sheepdogs and this pup was intended to replace our old vetern Sheepdog who is around 11 years and starting to slowdown.

My sister took the pup to her house and has had him there for the last almost eight months now. When the pup was about 2 months old he bit me one evening when he was over at my parents place and I went into my father's van to get some tools, not a bad bite and he was still quite young, more of a vicious snap and I instinctively took him with a slap back and yelled at him.

My sister lives there with her anti-social alcoholic boyfriend and I attribute alot of the dogs bad behaviour to this guy. The dog has no boundaries and has full roam of the house, sleeping in the kitchen at night. They got him a kennel but he kept barking so they left him back into the house again. He has done at least 1 or 2 thousand euro of damage to furniture and recently did a great job of devaluing her car also. Whilst my sister is working my father takes the dog away to the farm in attempts to train him to work at sheep; this happens about 2-3 days a week.

The boyfriend takes the dog also and the dog is rarely left at home. Whilst the boyfriend has the dog he is at the boyfriends farm and the dog became a minor celebrity in the pubs where you will find the Boyfriend most days. He has bitten 5 people now; The dog is barred out of the boyfriends regular pub where he bit two customers, one quiet badly and then bit the landlord who told the boyfriend not to bring him in anymore. You will now find the dog for long periods chained in the flatbed of his pickup jeep in the pub carpark; this week he committed his worst attack there with the latest victim requiring stitches and a doctors visit for injections etc. and was told he was lucky the finger didn't come off. All of these victims have been adults; drinking buddies of the boyfriend and the attitude from my sister and the boyfriend was that it was funny and no harm to bite them. The pub landlord was furious and barred the dog after he bit himself and he too had to get a tetanus shot.

I have had several arguments with my sister over the dog already and I have told her that he has to go live in the farm full-time now as he is not safe to be around people. My father and I already spent around €200 as we built a new dog house in the farm for the dog and when we left him there my sister went back over to the farm to get him back. The original agreement was that she could mind the dog for a month when he was a puppy as my father was too lazy to mind the pup himself. I live at home with my parents and we have no dogs at home.

My biggest concern is the dog will do serious damage, he has bitten 5 people now, myself included. My sister lives next door to a lady who operates a creche and she has a huge back yard there is often 10-20 toddlers all under 5 years old out playing. The dog has gotten into her yard already and attacked her cat who escaped to safety, if that happened during a week day and the children were there I'd dread to think what would happen; she has two other women working and I know there is no way they could save a child from the dog if he attacked a child in the same way he went for myself. The attitude of my sister and her boyfriend is "f*ck her; whats she's doing is illegal anyway" and racist language because the woman is East European and running a creche which isn't authorized they think. The eastern european lady is really nice and I spoke to her a few times informing her we had bought the property etc and we would be tarmacing the shared driveway in etc. My father bought the house last year for my sister as her rent skyrocketed in her old place and her boyfriend spends everything on drink.

A fortnight ago the dog made another vicious attack on me when I was at home when my sister drove into the yard as I was washing my car and the dog charged towards me after bolting out of the car. I was able to keep him back with several blasts of the powerwasher until my sister caught him again; I did soak the poor dog in the process but I avoided getting bitten at least. It was like the French police watercannon blasting the soccer hooligans in France.

I really don't know what to do, I know its none of my business but I know the dog is bad and its only a matter of time before he does serious damage and bites the wrong person and I think the proximity to the creche is a real worry because seeing what the dog tried to do to me then a kid could be killed by him. The dog is not licensed nor chipped also. Most of my friends and my mother said I should try get him euthanized but my father would not agree saying he is a great dog but my sister won't allow the dog to go stay in the farm. Another friend of mine in England said we should castrate the dog (Male) and it might take the aggression out of him. My father said no way as it would make him fat, lazy and useless as a working dog and that he wants him to cross another neighbours female dog later maybe next year.

I really don't know what to do as my and mother are seriously concerned.

AryaStark

I do not mean any insult to you but this dog does not belong on a farm where you live and would be in charge of it. It is obvious you don't like it and it does not trust you.
You could ask your sister to get a trainer or bring the dog to classes and get trained. A pup of 2 months old biting is not a problem... its only a baby at 8 weeks old and learning to use its mouth. If it was never trained it is not its fault. It should be left to your sister who loves the dog or rehomed (anywhere but with you who thinks that it cannot be around humans... what will you do ... tie it up with no contact on a farm?)

Tranceypoo

So much going on here....firstly, please DO NOT breed from this dog!! There are thousands upon thousands if dogs killed every year in this country and a massive percentage of those dogs are collies, please don't add any more puppies into that mix, why does your dad want to breed from him anyway? Plus a dog with this kind of temperament should not be bred from, oh my god just please don't do it!!
I don't think any of you should own this dog, sorry but I don't think any of you should own any dog, your sister hasn't got a clue, she lives next to a creche and doesn't seem to grasp the seriousness of what could happen, have you spoken to her about it at all??
This post has made me so cross and so sad, still in this day and age people think it's ok to just breed from their dog, regardless of temperament, breed, anything

AryaStark

Tranceypoo wrote: »

So much going on here....firstly, please DO NOT breed from this dog!! There are thousands upon thousands if dogs killed every year in this country and a massive percentage of those dogs are collies, please don't add any more puppies into that mix, why does your dad want to breed from him anyway? Plus a dog with this kind of temperament should not be bred from, oh my god just please don't do it!!
I don't think any of you should own this dog, sorry but I don't think any of you should own any dog, your sister hasn't got a clue, she lives next to a creche and doesn't seem to grasp the seriousness of what could happen, have you spoken to her about it at all??
This post has made me so cross and so sad, still in this day and age people think it's ok to just breed from their dog, regardless of temperament, breed, anything

I actually missed the last sentence somehow and did not notice that they wanted to breed of the poor dog. Madness.

DBB

Op, I'm not given to using bad language here, and I'm not given to losing patience with people who are in trouble with their dog's behaviour... But jesus wept, this dog's life has been a clusterf*ck from start to finish.
The dog has had no consistency, no training, no boundaries, nobody showing him how to behave... if he bit you hard enough to injure you at 8 weeks old, then my guess is he came from a quiet farm where he got feck-all handling and feck-all socialisation at the time if his life when he needed lots of handling and lots of socialisation. And now he's expected to behave himself when he's petted, handled, or in social situations. But he can't. And now he's injuring people... One of whom would be quite within their rights to sue your sister/father for causing injury... Particularly when it's known he has "form". In addition, aggressive dogs should never be bred from. Ever.
What a mess. I don't know how to even start to offer you help with him to be honest... Would your sister or father even be open to getting help, or listening to any advice you glean from here?

ticklebelly7

Unfortunately your father is talking through his backside - this poor dog is useless for anything. If you can't trust it with humans how will you trust it with sheep, its 'natural' prey?

Will any of you be able to live with yourselves if a child is maimed, or God forbid, killed. And your sister and her Boo can look forward to a prison sentence if that happens.

If this was in England the poor dog would have been euthanized long ago - two bites and you're out, over here.

Perhaps a shelter would be prepared to take him in. I sponsor a dog that was used as a drug dealers hound - made vicious and a danger to others deliberately by its previous owners. It now lives with nice people in the shelter. It'll never be rehomed, it can't even be taken out for a walk like other dogs because of its unpredictablity, but it's alive.

Maybe you could contact a shelter and ask if they'd be prepared to take it. Then report the situation to the Gardai and the iSPCA and ask them to seize it.

What a tragedy that a young fit dog should be the equivalent of a loaded gun in the next yard to a nursery.

Do the right thing before things go too far.

Hollister11

It's bread into a sheepdogs DNA to bite.

AryaStark

This is not a Dangerous dog, it is still a pup at only about 10 months. It is still at a good age to train and focus its energy in a positive way.

Tranceypoo

Hollister11 wrote:

It's bread into a sheepdogs DNA to bite.

Oh for heaven's sakes!!! No it isn't!!!

Hollister11

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Oh for heaven's sakes!!! No it isn't!!!

Yes it is. It's in there DNA.

I have one at the moment, and have had previous. The dogs I have, had come from farms, and they suffered horrific abuse.

skywanderer

AryaStark wrote: »

This is not a Dangerous dog, it is still a pup at only about 10 months. It is still at a good age to train and focus its energy in a positive way.

Believe me this dog is very dangerous, the dog has been fully grown for last few months now and is far from a puppy. He is immature certainly but is a large and dangerous dog.

There was another incident around 6 weeks ago which I purposely left out as it might be distressing reading but basically involved me having to defend myself; and I can honestly say that only for our older 11 year old sheep dog that day I would have been mauled, when she saw my sisters dog attacking me she rushed in to save me and bit my sisters dog and then proceeded to sit down infront of me and snarl and growl at my sisters dog buying me enough time to jump a gate and into the safety of the tractors cab.

I really don't know what to do, the dog isn't mine; I can't get near him without being ate alive and the attitude of my father is that the dog must go to stay in the farm full-time but my sisters attitude is that he is like a baby and could never harm everyone and she won't let him go over to stay in the farm. I have warned them they will get in serious trouble when he bites the wrong person or worse still a child.

I don't pretend to know anything about dogs or their psychology, I had a small terrier who was my childhood dog between me and my sister and she died nearly ten years ago and we didn't get a replacement dog at the time as we were both in our twenties with different paths in life and my sister was finishing college and went to America and I was not at home all the time either. My old terrier was a lovely quiet terrier who we'd take for walks and that dog wouldn't hurt a fly.

My mother offered to get my sister a small dog like a west highland terrier as that would be a nice house dog compared to this great big sheep dog which already wrecked a €3,000 designer sofa, ate a pair of curtains and ate the seat belt buckles in her new car and chewed the steering wheel; I'd estimate since the dog came he has cost anything up to €5,000 in medical bills and damage done.

Also I should add that we have two more dogs in the farm the 11 year old who saved me previously and another 2 year old who could be best described as a lunatic of a dog, she was my fathers first attempt at training in a successor to the 11 year old but it hasn't gone to plan. The 2 year old won't bite or harm people and is a nice dog but is no trust around sheep and when we take her out at sheep we have to muzzle her otherwise she would bite the sheep and isn't working very good, my sisters dog and the 2 year old has had several bad fights instigated by my sisters dog and back in March my sisters dog was limping for over a month as it got a badly infected paw from a bad bite from the 2 year old. That cost over €300 in vets bills as the dog almost lost his paw and his aggression levels went away up after that incident also.

I really appreciate the input here, I feel like I'm the only one who is willing to do anything and to be honest its a worry; I feel my father and sister are too blind and stupid to do anything until its too late.

Jen Pigs Fly

Hollister11 wrote: »

Yes it is. It's in there DNA.

Scientific proof and then we'll talk . What utter nonsense.

DBB

Horrific abuse is more likely to cause dogs to bite.
To say it's "in their DNA" isn't quite accurate... It is certainly in some collie's inbred motor patterns to nip at the heels of fleeing livestock (it's a fault though, for sheepdogs... More desirable in cattle dogs).
But in this context, nipping is not the same as biting people. If you want to say that biting people is in the collie's DNA, then you have to say it's in all dogs' DNA... All dogs, and all people, and pretty much all animals, come pre-programmed to use aggression to get out of situations that threaten or frighten them. Their environment plays a huge role in switching on their need to use that aggression.

Tranceypoo

Hollister11 wrote:

I have one at the moment, and have had previous. The dogs I have, had come from farms, and they suffered horrific abuse.

So you're judging an entire breed by the ones you've had in your life? What's that 5? 6 maybe? Any dog that's suffered abuse or been mistreated or just is plain unsocialised is liable to such behavior, that's ANY dog of ANY breed, not just collies!

ShaShaBear

I got about a paragraph in.

An 8 week old puppy bit you, and your instinct was to slap him?
And you wonder why he might bite again?

If we met in a bar and you slapped me, and then I slapped you back, do you think you might be inclined to slap again? Of course! The dog, for a very good reason, tried to use violence to get you to back off from him and you retaliated with greater violence. Naturally, he realises in order to get you to leave him alone, he is going to have to up his game.
Just like when you drive a car and try to stop it, a quick tap of the breaks might be enough. But say the pads are worn down. Eventually you will have to press harder and harder on the brakes to get the result you want. And eventually, when the brakes fail, no amount of braking at any level will work and there will be catastrophic consequences

Now learning that the easiest way for him to get left alone is to use a show of force, you honestly, like really, LIKE SERIOUSLY wonder why a dog chained to a bloody car being approached by drunken, loud and over-bearing louts might choose to use aggression to warn them off????????????

The damage he does to property is entirely down to his owners. They clearly did not train him about chewing. It has nothing to do with him being allowed to have the run of the house. My border collie has full run of our house and has not done ANY damage since he was teething over a year and a half ago. Know why? We trained him.

Do not breed from this dog. Not because his temperament is poor. Not because there are thousands of collie pups dying in pounds every year. Because neither you, your father or your sister are even CLOSE to competent enough to be responsible for the life of any dog! And your mother suggesting that a West Highland Terrier would be a better substitute next to a creche full of kids? And your father thinking that neutering would make him fat and useless at working? Your families collective abuse and neglect of him is what makes him useless!!!!
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

the beer revolu

This is not the OP's dog.
The OP has had no part in the dog's training and socialisation and does't want the dog to stay with their sister. Neither does he/she want to breed the dog. The OP just doesn't want to see more people bitten by this badly trained, unsocialised dog.

Why is there such vitriol directed at the OP (again:rolleyes:)?

Mark Tapley

the beer revolu wrote: »

This is not the OP's dog.
The OP has had no part in the dog's training and socialisation and does't want the dog to stay with their sister. Neither does he/she want to breed the dog. The OP just doesn't want to see more people bitten by this badly trained, unsocialised dog.

Why is there such vitriol directed at the OP (again:rolleyes:)?

I think the responses have been quite mild considering the life this dog is leading. The OP's contributions (slapping, power hose) have only exacerbated the situation.

the beer revolu

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I think the responses have been quite mild considering the life this dog is leading. The OP's contributions (slapping, power hose) have only exacerbated the situation.

You have a problem with someone using self defence when being attacked by a vicious dog?
(talking about the hose, not the slapping). While I don't condone the OP slapping a pup for biting, please realise that people have done thit for generations, not everyone is as brilliantly educated and enlightened as you. It takes time to change people's behaviour. FFS people still hit children for being rough/violent.

So, ok. The OP slapped a pup who bit him/her. Is that why they're getting all this nasty abuse? And it is nasty and unhelpful (again:rolleyes:)

It is not the OP's fault that their father and sister are dangerously clueless when it comes to rearing dogs!

zef

What is wrong with defending yourself from a dog attack with a power hose? A Rottie went for myself & my Jack russell a few months ago and we had a guy with a hurl come to our rescue. Nobody said that was cruel yet it was a lot more harmful than a jet of water.
The OP seems genuinely concerned about the dog, the situation, and the children next door in the creche.

DBB

Folks,
Whilst the op didn't necessarily respond well to the bite, I don't feel they deserve the harshness they're getting because that slap pales into insignificance compared to the other crap this poor dog has endured... The op is trying to do something about what is a very loaded and precarious situation, so can we all back off the op a tad?
Thanks
DBB

Mark Tapley

the beer revolu wrote: »

You have a problem with someone using self defence when being attacked by a vicious dog?
(talking about the hose, not the slapping). While I don't condone the OP slapping a pup for biting, please realise that people have done thit for generations, not everyone is as brilliantly educated and enlightened as you. It takes time to change people's behaviour. FFS people still hit children for being rough/violent.

So, ok. The OP slapped a pup who bit him/her. Is that why they're getting all this nasty abuse? And it is nasty and unhelpful (again:rolleyes:)

It is not the OP's fault that their father and sister are dangerously clueless when it comes to rearing dogs!

You need to calm down. Stop making baseless assumptions about me. Your histrionics about vitriol and abuse are ridiculous.

the beer revolu

Mark Tapley wrote: »

You need to calm down. Stop making baseless assumptions about me. Your histrionics about vitriol and abuse are ridiculous.

ROLF
(that's rolling on the floor laughing, by the way)
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:

Mark Tapley

the beer revolu wrote: »

ROLF
(that's rolling on the floor laughing, by the way)
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:

Have you ever seen anybody other than a child actually ROFL? You are overly sensitive on the OP's behalf. The whole family seem to have contributed to the mistreatment of this dog.
The OP wants to remedy the situation and this speaks well for them.
I feel like saying the dog needs to be rehomed but would worry what the future would hold for a dog who has had such a bad start in life.

DBB

the beer revolu and mark tapley,
Please stop this line of conversation now.
Thanks,
DBB

Latatian

The dog should be muzzled and not let around people, and definitely definitely definitely not bred from. Aggression that starts at 8 weeks old isn't normal- no treatment, however bad, should create aggression towards humans in a healthy 8 week old pup. That is a serious warning sign for an inherent abnormality in the dog, possibly a genetic problem that would mean its pups would also be like that. This is about the biggest reason you have to not breed a dog, even if it was the greatest sheepdog on earth you still shouldn't bred from a dog that shows aggression that early. Getting it at 6 weeks would not have helped, at all. One specific reason often mentioned is that dogs need to stay with their dams to learn bite inhibition.

But realistically you have no way of making these things happen.

Neutered or spayed dogs don't get fat or lazy because they're neutered but because they're overfed. Dogs can have the run of the house, sleeping on the couches and the beds, and still be good dogs, even good sheepdogs- but then they have boundaries in other ways. Have a look at this sheepdog trainer, he talks about house dogs at 2.56 and neutering at 7:45. Maybe him being a sheepdog trainer might mean more to your dad than you saying it.

They should NOT get a westie. Oh god no. I have one, she's good with kids, a grand little dog, the apple of my eye, and she is so because every. single. day. I train her. I deliberately arrange for her to meet children I know are good with dogs, so that she continually gets taught kids are 'safe' and she doesn't have to worry about them. She is NEVER even allowed to look at kids unless there is someone there supervising her, or to interact with children that don't look 'safe' (children that are loud, boisterous, over-excited, disobedient etc.) She can be dog reactive and I constantly train her and manage that.

If they're laughing off this their next dog will probably bite too, especially a terrier. It's amazing how people who have one dog that repeatedly bites people, particularly serious bites, will often have another the next time. I have known people have multiple biting collies, dogs you couldn't turn your back on, and that was just 'what collies do', and others who had collies who never bit a soul. It wasn't really the breed, or how the dogs were picked, it was how they were trained and managed.

She's spayed incidentally: people say the same thing about spayed bitches being lazy, and she can do a 9km walk with one lung and arthritis, and then come home and try and get you to play a game of fetch.

If the dog bites someone badly, and gets taken away or killed, then your dad's going to be out a sheepdog. And your sister isn't going to keep the dog in a way that will prevent that. Your dad needs to either get another dog (making the sister pay for the replacement, hopefully) or else maybe just take the dog and put his foot down. They should sit down and have a discussion as to who actually owns the dog and who has responsibility for it.

Cherry Blossom

I'm sorry OP but I really have no advice for you. I don't know what you can do to be honest. I have to chime in on the westie issue. Another poster has said their westie is good with children, mine too but the vast majority of them have very little tolerance of kids, younger kids especially. They are also one of the most difficult breeds to raise, own and train. Absolutely do not recommend a westie to your sister.

bur

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I got about a paragraph in.

An 8 week old puppy bit you, and your instinct was to slap him?
And you wonder why he might bite again?

If we met in a bar and you slapped me, and then I slapped you back, do you think you might be inclined to slap again? Of course! The dog, for a very good reason, tried to use violence to get you to back off from him and you retaliated with greater violence. Naturally, he realises in order to get you to leave him alone, he is going to have to up his game.
Just like when you drive a car and try to stop it, a quick tap of the breaks might be enough. But say the pads are worn down. Eventually you will have to press harder and harder on the brakes to get the result you want. And eventually, when the brakes fail, no amount of braking at any level will work and there will be catastrophic consequences

Now learning that the easiest way for him to get left alone is to use a show of force, you honestly, like really, LIKE SERIOUSLY wonder why a dog chained to a bloody car being approached by drunken, loud and over-bearing louts might choose to use aggression to warn them off????????????

The damage he does to property is entirely down to his owners. They clearly did not train him about chewing. It has nothing to do with him being allowed to have the run of the house. My border collie has full run of our house and has not done ANY damage since he was teething over a year and a half ago. Know why? We trained him.

Do not breed from this dog. Not because his temperament is poor. Not because there are thousands of collie pups dying in pounds every year. Because neither you, your father or your sister are even CLOSE to competent enough to be responsible for the life of any dog! And your mother suggesting that a West Highland Terrier would be a better substitute next to a creche full of kids? And your father thinking that neutering would make him fat and useless at working? Your families collective abuse and neglect of him is what makes him useless!!!!
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Just pick apart everything she is doing wrong and offer no real practical advice. Nice.

DBB

bur wrote: »

Just pick apart everything she is doing wrong and offer no real practical advice. Nice.

Bur, as you can see, mods have already dealt with this issue. If you have a problem with a post, please report it and let the mods deal with it.
Do not reply to this post on-thread.
Thanks,
DBB

L1985

I'm nearly scared to post on this because emotions are running so high. My own thoughts are the dog needs to be taken from your sister now, ignore her complaints and take the dog to the farm. Get the dog used to the other dogs and train him from scratch. He's had no boundaries and too much energy an if he is like other collies too smart for his own good.. He may not be an agreed dive dog just a scared and defensive one who sees his territory being crossed. We have had a lot of farm collies and they need to be trained by someone with patience and consistency. If you can't do it or in your family then find it someone who can. It's still quite young. But you have to do something and listen to your conscience!

Ms Doubtfire1

L1985 wrote: »

I'm nearly scared to post on this because emotions are running so high. My own thoughts are the dog needs to be taken from your sister now, ignore her complaints and take the dog to the farm. Get the dog used to the other dogs and train him from scratch. He's had no boundaries and too much energy an if he is like other collies too smart for his own good.. He may not be an agreed dive dog just a scared and defensive one who sees his territory being crossed. We have had a lot of farm collies and they need to be trained by someone with patience and consistency. If you can't do it or in your family then find it someone who can. It's still quite young. But you have to do something and listen to your conscience!

+1