First bank account - why so difficult?

CiniO

I had a chat with some recent immigrants who moved from Poland to Limerick few months ago.

They said they had problems with finding house to rent (understandable considering current property market situation), problem with arranging car insurance (understandable considering ridiculous situation with car insurance market here at the moment). But they said biggest problem they encountered was opening a bank account.

And I wonder - what is the reason for that.

F.e. from Bank of Ireland

You will need the following documents to open a bank account:
1. A current valid passport or driving licence;
2. A recent household bill such as a telephone, electricity or gas bill. As a non-resident you will also be required to provide a character reference and financial history from your own bank.

Requirement for Photo ID is obvious, but I can't understand why banks don't want to accept National IDs from EU countries, while they are happy to accept driving licence or passports issued in those countries...
I know it's unlikely, but there might be people from EU moving here, who don't hold passport or driving licence, and those people won't be able to open bank account in Ireland at all.

Next thing is an utility bill. I know this is widely used in Ireland as proof of address, but how can a person who just moved here and needs bank account for their work salary to be transferred, paying bills, etc already have bills.
It's usually a good while until your utility bills arrive after your first time rent a place here.
It's a kind of silly circle - you need utility bill to open bank account, but you also need bank account to register with utility supplier who can issue you a bill.
People I talked to, said they signed a lease with a landlord, and this lease was not good enough for a bank as a proof they live there. They were told this could easily be forged. TBH any utility bill could be also easily forged - but well. I don't get this logic.

And character referrence and financial history from their own bank?
What's this about and why would a bank need that?
Would that mean that someone of bad character or with poor financial history is not entitled to have current account here?

Makes no sense whatsoever to me?


I'd undestand requirements like that for mortgage, loan, etc...
But current account in my opinion is normal service similar to service of having mobile phone, broadband, electricity in your home, etc, where bank hardly takes any risk by opening account for a person.

I completely can't understand why so much silly measures and obstructions to open first account?

Captain Chaos

It's because of all the illegal organised criminal activities involving money laundering that has caused this. I had massive trouble opening my first ever current account at the age of 17 in 2003 with AIB. I needed it for college, I had to have both parents present who held accounts there for years, a garda vetting form, birth cert, passport and a meeting with the branch manager.

Crazy stuff.

CiniO

Captain Chaos wrote: »

It's because of all the illegal organised criminal activities involving money laundering that has caused this. I had massive trouble opening my first ever current account at the age of 17 in 2003 with AIB. I needed it for college, I had to have both parents present who held accounts there for years, a garda vetting form, birth cert, passport and a meeting with the branch manager.

Crazy stuff.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I'm immigrant myself. Moved here in 2004.
Opening bank account then was really simple and no bother.
I showed my passport, signed one form, and presented a letter (hand written by my employer) stating that I was living on my employers premises.

Nothing else was needed.

Looks like I was just lucky then.

wonski

You are making it look like a big issue, but it isn't that bad

Banks have their rules, but different banks have different rules.

Your friends from Limerick got this all sorted by now, don't they ?

I had some "trouble" when settling down here, but so do people moving to other countries.

Money laundering is main reason, not just in Ireland, but in most - if not all - european countries.

Moving on. Foreign nationals can't open bank accounts on the spot = reality.

Delta2113

It is a big issue and needs to be simplified -no question. Other countries processes are far simpler.

Not available at present but I opened a German Bank Account with Number 26 via video chat with just my Passport.

Emmadilema123

CiniO wrote: »

I had a chat with some recent immigrants who moved from Poland to Limerick few months ago.

They said they had problems with finding house to rent (understandable considering current property market situation), problem with arranging car insurance (understandable considering ridiculous situation with car insurance market here at the moment). But they said biggest problem they encountered was opening a bank account.

And I wonder - what is the reason for that.

F.e. from Bank of Ireland


Requirement for Photo ID is obvious, but I can't understand why banks don't want to accept National IDs from EU countries, while they are happy to accept driving licence or passports issued in those countries...
I know it's unlikely, but there might be people from EU moving here, who don't hold passport or driving licence, and those people won't be able to open bank account in Ireland at all.

Next thing is an utility bill. I know this is widely used in Ireland as proof of address, but how can a person who just moved here and needs bank account for their work salary to be transferred, paying bills, etc already have bills.
It's usually a good while until your utility bills arrive after your first time rent a place here.
It's a kind of silly circle - you need utility bill to open bank account, but you also need bank account to register with utility supplier who can issue you a bill.
People I talked to, said they signed a lease with a landlord, and this lease was not good enough for a bank as a proof they live there. They were told this could easily be forged. TBH any utility bill could be also easily forged - but well. I don't get this logic.

And character referrence and financial history from their own bank?
What's this about and why would a bank need that?
Would that mean that someone of bad character or with poor financial history is not entitled to have current account here?

Makes no sense whatsoever to me?


I'd undestand requirements like that for mortgage, loan, etc...
But current account in my opinion is normal service similar to service of having mobile phone, broadband, electricity in your home, etc, where bank hardly takes any risk by opening account for a person.

I completely can't understand why so much silly measures and obstructions to open first account?

How would they get here with no passport or driving licence? Can you travel on national Id? I work got international bank so we are happy to accept national ID for all European countries but in Ireland we are pretty black and white about what we can accept. I assume it's down to a lack of compliance training and banking staffs inability to verify the legitimacy of a foreign national ID card. Driving licence has a series of numbers on it that can make it easy to verify and same with the MRZ line on the passport.

Also there is a massive risk with current account if you haven't verified who owns it properly. This account can be used as an intermediary or exit account for money laundering. If you have to report an exit account for money laundering to fiu and you can't say who owns it your potentially looking at hefty fine and loss of banking licence for being non compliant.

Big Bag of Chips

CiniO wrote: »

Would that mean that someone of bad character or with poor financial history is not entitled to have current account here?

My brother in law, born and bred in Dublin, was refused a bank account for years because of very bad financial history. He let a previous current account get ridiculously over drawn and then just abandoned the account. His sister, also poor financial history, couldn't open an account at one point for some reason.. something about not meeting the terms of a current account.

Emmadilema123

Delta2113 wrote: »

It is a big issue and needs to be simplified -no question. Other countries processes are far simpler.

Not available at present but I opened a German Bank Account with Number 26 via video chat with just my Passport.

Germany is so efficient it's ridiculous!

Doolittle51

The rules are laid down by the central bank, so the banks have to adhere to them. My girlfriend recently moved here from abroad. Before she moved we transferred the ESB bill to her name and they allowed us to keep the direct debit coming from my account.
Her first bill arrived before she moved here permanently, so it worked out well.....so we thought.
She went to open an account in AIB & they told her that the bill had to be a second bill. Ridiculous! Potentially you'd have to wait over 4 months to get the second ESB bill.
We went to BOI and they had no problem using the first bill as proof of address.

CiniO

Emmadilema123 wrote: »

How would they get here with no passport or driving licence? Can you travel on national Id?

Of course you can travel all over EU with just a national ID. No need to carry passport, and most people within EU don't.
Driving licence is not good for crossing the border.

I work got international bank so we are happy to accept national ID for all European countries but in Ireland we are pretty black and white about what we can accept. I assume it's down to a lack of compliance training and banking staffs inability to verify the legitimacy of a foreign national ID card.

Generally all over EU, national IDs are issued with more security measures than driving licences.
I don't understand why someone's driving licence from Poland might be good enough for Irish bank, but national ID from Poland woudn't.
Bank staff would be the same not familiar with both.

Driving licence has a series of numbers on it that can make it easy to verify and same with the MRZ line on the passport.

Each national ID also has series number on it, same like passport, and much more obvious than one used on driving licence.

Also there is a massive risk with current account if you haven't verified who owns it properly. This account can be used as an intermediary or exit account for money laundering. If you have to report an exit account for money laundering to fiu and you can't say who owns it your potentially looking at hefty fine and loss of banking licence for being non compliant.

Well IMO proper verification of ID/Passport should be enough.

Emmadilema123

CiniO wrote: »

Of course you can travel all over EU with just a national ID. No need to carry passport, and most people within EU don't.
Driving licence is not good for crossing the border.


Generally all over EU, national IDs are issued with more security measures than driving licences.
I don't understand why someone's driving licence from Poland might be good enough for Irish bank, but national ID from Poland woudn't.
Bank staff would be the same not familiar with both.


Each national ID also has series number on it, same like passport, and much more obvious than one used on driving licence.



Well IMO proper verification of ID/Passport should be enough.

That's the problem with serial number on most national IDs. They are easy to decipher so easy to copy. Like I said I have no issue with European national ID as I have a lot of experience with them but here in Ireland, banks would see them a lot less than DL and passport numbers which can actually be verified with the likes of world check. It's a safer and cheaper option than delivering compliance training for documentation that would be presented once in a blue moon.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong but maybe not safe or cost effective.

Emmadilema123

Emmadilema123 wrote: »

That's the problem with serial number on most national IDs. They are easy to decipher so easy to copy. Like I said I have no issue with European national ID as I have a lot of experience with them but here in Ireland, banks would see them a lot less than DL and passport numbers which can actually be verified with the likes of world check. It's a safer and cheaper option than delivering compliance training for documentation that would be presented once in a blue moon.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong but maybe not safe or cost effective.

Also your opening a can of worms. If polish is accepted then everywhere would have to be. Italian national ID cards have different fonts depending on the region it is issued, some Greek national ID's are still hand written and all are written in Greek. Because they all vary so much, it would require extensive training to get it right and make sure staff aren't accepting forgeries.

jjjd

As an island nation with poor public transport most Irish people would have either a passport or driving licence or both, so it's easy for Irish banks to request these documents as they themselves would be familiar with these documents and know these documents would be readily available to hand for most Irish people when setting up a bank account here. Also as Ireland does not have a recognised National ID card, banks are reluctant to accept National ID cards of other countries, particularly as they already know National ID cards can vary widely in quality and format from county to country so can be difficult to ascertain if forged or not. It is easier for banks just to streamline the requirements to just one or two official documents that they are familiar with.

CiniO

jjjd wrote: »

As an island nation with poor public transport most Irish people would have either a passport or driving licence or both, so it's easy for Irish banks to request these documents as they themselves would be familiar with these documents and know these documents would be readily available to hand for most Irish people when setting up a bank account here. Also as Ireland does not have a recognised National ID card, banks are reluctant to accept National ID cards of other countries, particularly as they already know National ID cards can vary widely in quality and format from county to country so can be difficult to ascertain if forged or not. It is easier for banks just to streamline the requirements to just one or two official documents that they are familiar with.

I see your point, but driving licences also vary greatly from country to country.
I can't see how banks can be more familiar with driving licence from some foreign country than national ID from the same country...

In my experience, national ID's have much higher security measures than driving licences, even purely due to fact that they are allowed as travel document all over EU, while driving licences aren't.

Emmadilema123

CiniO wrote: »

I see your point, but driving licences also vary greatly from country to country.
I can't see how banks can be more familiar with driving licence from some foreign country than national ID from the same country...

In my experience, national ID's have much higher security measures than driving licences, even purely due to fact that they are allowed as travel document all over EU, while driving licences aren't.

European driving licences actually don't vary all that much. They all have same format (except old Irish paper licence and old U.K. Paper licence as some of these are still in date.)Apart from that the format is the same. The all have numbered sections. Section 4b is blank on polish licence and not in other countries but apart from that all the same info, all numbered the same way and all hold European flag image.