Do you think people forget the crimes of the british in northern ireland?

jack923

Contrary to popular belief it was the british military and loyalists who killed the most civilians in the troubles. The british army killed 200 (which doesn't include suspected IRA members and the IRA killed 600 which includes alleged criminals, spies, members of the police force and off duty army personnel which brings the figure to roughly 350. As you can see there is not much difference between the two groups. The amount of people anti ira today I can only put down to that half this war was fought in the media, you might know that innocent civilians killed by british forces received nowhere near as much coverage as those killed by the IRA, You should also account for all the innocent people sent to prison by the british.

I'm not supporting either side in this thread I'm just saying that there were atrocities committed by both sides and for people who think the IRA were careless for civilian life (which they were in certain incidents) the IRA were a guerilla group and they were extremely active and had by far the hardest job to avoid civilian casualty as they were planting bombs and the fact that only around 350 killed were actually civilians is quite astonishing. I'm not saying you should support the IRA I'm saying you should be against both sides equally.

jack923

And also if the IRA wanted they could have killed a thousand civilians in london within a week if they wanted to so to say the IRA just wanted to kill as much people as they could is ridiculous.

Terrontress

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

1705 deaths by the IRA, compared to 297 by the British.

jack923

Terrontress wrote: »

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html

1705 deaths by the IRA, compared to 297 by the British.

That's just a page put up by some random dude? And also it's wrong 200 civilians alone were killed by the british army and also I was talking about the PIRA sorry if I didn't clarify.

That's far from a reliable source.

Terrontress

You might never have heard of it, but it's extremely reliable.

jack923

Terrontress wrote: »

You might never have heard of it, but it's extremely reliable.

Anyway my point was about civilian deaths not deaths of both sides fighting.

jack923

Terrontress wrote: »

You might never have heard of it, but it's extremely reliable.

And the british army killed close to 400 people and even more if you want to include members of the army who worked with loyalist paramilitaries.

jh79

Your second sentence contradicts the first in your OP? 350 vs 200, so the IRA did kill more than the BA?

jack923

jh79 wrote: »

Your second sentence contradicts the first in your OP? 350 vs 200, so the IRA did kill more than the BA?

Yes I didn't say they didn't.

jack923

jh79 wrote: »

Your second sentence contradicts the first in your OP? 350 vs 200, so the IRA did kill more than the BA?

The IRA also killed more than loyalist paramilitaries but I will still say that the IRA were much less evil than them.

jh79

jack923 wrote: »

Yes I didn't say they didn't.

My apologies , read the first line incorrectly.

con___manx1

I don't think people forget. most don't have a clue about nothern Ireland. especially the young people in the republic.
The British were just as bad. One of there leaders at the time aka Margret thatcher orderderd the sinking of a retreating ship the general belgrano killing 323 argintine navy personell during the Falklands war.
How could the British army be any different with a leader like that. She also wouldn't give into the demands of the hunger strikers until at least ten of them were dead. Bobby sands was on her hit list for sure.

jack923

con___manx1 wrote: »

I don't think people forget. most don't have a clue about nothern Ireland. especially the young people in the republic.
The British were just as bad. One of there leaders at the time aka Margret thatcher orderderd the sinking of a retreating ship the general belgrano killing 323 argintine navy personell during the Falklands war.
How could the British army be any different with a leader like that. She also wouldn't give into the demands of the hunger strikers until at least ten of them were dead. Bobby sands was on her hit list for sure.

Agreed thatcher was evil I just wish people would actually educate themselves and be against both sides equally.

jack923

con___manx1 wrote: »

I don't think people forget. most don't have a clue about nothern Ireland. especially the young people in the republic.
The British were just as bad. One of there leaders at the time aka Margret thatcher orderderd the sinking of a retreating ship the general belgrano killing 323 argintine navy personell during the Falklands war.
How could the British army be any different with a leader like that. She also wouldn't give into the demands of the hunger strikers until at least ten of them were dead. Bobby sands was on her hit list for sure.

I also hate the way people make out that IRA members were all monsters An incident that sticks out in my mind 3 of the escaped of maze prison took over a rural protestant house to stay out of sight from helicopters and when the helicopters were gone they said to the family you have 2 options so that you don't call the police for 24 hours, option 1 is we take your eldest son (16), the woman begged not to take her son. Option 2 is that you swear to me as a Christian that you won't contact the police for 24 hours. Obviously the woman took that offer and the 3 IRA men walked out with their lives and freedom in their hands and as they left they said no matter what happens you won't hear from us again you have my word as a Christian. These are not the monsters the media makes them out to be.

jack923

jack923 wrote: »

I also hate the way people make out that IRA members were all monsters An incident that sticks out in my mind 3 of the escaped of maze prison took over a rural protestant house to stay out of sight from helicopters and when the helicopters were gone they said to the family you have 2 options so that you don't call the police for 24 hours, option 1 is we take your eldest son (16), the woman begged not to take her son. Option 2 is that you swear to me as a Christian that you won't contact the police for 24 hours. Obviously the woman took that offer and the 3 IRA men walked out with their lives and freedom in their hands and as they left they said no matter what happens you won't hear from us again you have my word as a Christian. These are not the monsters the media makes them out to be.

LOL!!

Sure they were god fearing Christians
You make me laugh OP...

jack923

bubblypop wrote: »

LOL!!

Sure they were god fearing Christians
You make me laugh OP...

They weren't I'm just saying people make them out to be the lowest of the low, when in fact there were many good men in the IRA.

Could you imagine an average criminal who broke out of prison doing what those IRA men did? Not wanting to cause the family harm they left with nothing but their word.

Phoebas

jack923 wrote: »

I also hate the way people make out that IRA members were all monsters An incident that sticks out in my mind 3 of the escaped of maze prison took over a rural protestant house to stay out of sight from helicopters and when the helicopters were gone they said to the family you have 2 options so that you don't call the police for 24 hours, option 1 is we take your eldest son (16), the woman begged not to take her son. Option 2 is that you swear to me as a Christian that you won't contact the police for 24 hours. Obviously the woman took that offer and the 3 IRA men walked out with their lives and freedom in their hands and as they left they said no matter what happens you won't hear from us again you have my word as a Christian. These are not the monsters the media makes them out to be.

Does not compute.

con___manx1

jack923 wrote: »

Agreed thatcher was evil I just wish people would actually educate themselves and be against both sides equally.

Its a pity she wasn't blown to pieces in Brighton . rumor has it she was in the toilet and escaped injury. Thatcher and Hitler the devil must have been looking out for them. Both escaped assacination attempts by means of explosives.
How lucky can you be? ; )
Then she blows a ship up two years later with hundreds of men on it. Maybe they would all be alive now if the ira had succeeded . who knows ; )

jack923

Phoebas wrote: »

Does not compute.

The media makes them out to be people who just want to kill as much protestants as possible when that simply isn't true.

jack923

con___manx1 wrote: »

Its a pity she wasn't blown to pieces in Brighton . rumor has it she was in the toilet and escaped injury. Thatcher and Hitler the devil must have been looking out for them. Both escaped assacination attempts by means of explosives.
How lucky can you be? ; )
Then she blows a ship up two years later with hundreds of men on it. Maybe they would all be alive now if the ira had succeeded . who knows ; )

Now that would have been a national holiday most people in Ireland at that time would have been very happy at that result.

fran17

jack923 wrote: »

Agreed thatcher was evil I just wish people would actually educate themselves and be against both sides equally.

Just out of curiosity why would Irish citizens,knowing the history of British colonialism on this island,be inclined to hold equal distain for both a brutal,illegal occupying power and Irish republicans fighting for the removal of such occupying power and the reunification of the island?

jack923

jack923 wrote: »

The media makes them out to be people who just want to kill as much protestants as possible when that simply isn't true.

What?
Where do you get that from OP?

You seem to think that people can't make up their own minds about the IRA.

jack923

fran17 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity why would Irish citizens,knowing the history of British colonialism on this island,be inclined to hold equal distain for both a brutal,illegal occupying power and Irish republicans fighting for the removal of such occupying power and the reunification of the island?

Well in the 70s and early 80s the large majority of ireland were IRA supporters or sympathisers but this changed with a couple of certain incidents especially the poppy day massacre which nobody should support and in fairness most of the PIRA were discgusted at this act as well with many of them even leaving the group and also the British were smart the British started to treat the catholics more fairly over time to stop more and and more support for the IRA so then it became the the IRA were just fighting for a united Ireland and not to stop british oppression.

jack923

bubblypop wrote: »

What?
Where do you get that from OP?

You seem to think that people can't make up their own minds about the IRA.

The media has great power the media can greatly influence people a recent example is leave campaigners were really frustrated over the BBC slightly edging towards supporting the remain campaign I just used that example to show that the media is powerful.

Also catholic civilians who were killed by the british army received little to no media attention and let's not forget that people in the republic watched british tv.

jack923

jack923 wrote: »

Well in the 70s and early 80s the large majority of ireland were IRA supporters or sympathisers but this changed with a couple of certain incidents especially the poppy day massacre which nobody should support and in fairness most of the PIRA were discgusted at this act as well with many of them even leaving the group and also the British were smart the British started to treat the catholics more fairly over time to stop more and and more support for the IRA so then it became the the IRA were just fighting for a united Ireland and not to stop british oppression.

And also I want to add to this the people behind the poppy day massacre should have been executed it shouldn't be tit for tat that just because british soldiers weren't persecuted for similar acts like bloody sunday that the IRA shouldn't carry out their policies like intentionally killing civilians is punishable by death but I guess that's down to wether or not it was a great mistake or not.

empacher

I dont think its fair for any of us to judge the action of the IRA, to be fair their history of resistence goes back further then most of us care to remember. All this organisations had their roots to the 1800's.

For most of these people they were abandoned by their country when the republic was created.

I'm not going to judge someone or groups of people for their actions who lived in hardhips and circumstances I am lucky enough not to be able to comphrened.

Also im pretty sure the brittish army/ government accounts for Irish deaths in the millions. People are pretty quick to forget that, and just count recent numbers or post creation of the Irish Republic.

Can't just pick and choose a year to record deasth tolls from in a pre exisiting conflict/war.

fran17

jack923 wrote: »

Well in the 70s and early 80s the large majority of ireland were IRA supporters or sympathisers but this changed with a couple of certain incidents especially the poppy day massacre which nobody should support and in fairness most of the PIRA were discgusted at this act as well with many of them even leaving the group and also the British were smart the British started to treat the catholics more fairly over time to stop more and and more support for the IRA so then it became the the IRA were just fighting for a united Ireland and not to stop british oppression.

Indeed Enniskillen was quite the own goal on the provisionals behalf,it noticeably shifted the public sentiment despite acknowledgement by both sides that the victims were not the intended target.I struggle to differentiate between British occupation and British oppression though.

jack923

empacher wrote: »

I dont think its fair for any of us to judge the action of the IRA, to be fair their history of resistence goes back further then most of us care to remember. All this organisations had their roots to the 1800's.

For most of these people they were abandoned by their country when the republic was created.

I'm not going to judge someone or groups of people for their actions who lived in hardhips and circumstances I am lucky enough not to be able to comphrened.

Also im pretty sure the brittish army/ government accounts for Irish deaths in the millions. People are pretty quick to forget that, and just count recent numbers or post creation of the Irish Republic.

Can't just pick and choose a year to record deasth tolls from in a pre exisiting conflict/war.

You're right the IRA were seen by catholics in the north as heroes people don't realise how badly catholics were being treated in the 60s which lead up to the IRA, young catholic children were having bottles of urine thrown at them, their houses were being burnt to the ground, soldiers were shooting civilians down before the PIRA was even created and to make it even worse catholics believed shouldn't have even been there in the first place, I could go on but I think everyone gets the point the PIRA was inevitable.

jack923

fran17 wrote: »

Indeed Enniskillen was quite the own goal on the provisionals behalf,it noticeably shifted the public sentiment despite acknowledgement by both sides that the victims were not the intended target.I struggle to differentiate between British occupation and British oppression though.

It's more that they believed they shouldn't have even been there and things like a protestant majority meant that catholic needs weren't met and that employers would rather give their job to a protestant over a Catholic as they seen the Protestants as their own and plus if you count the houses being burnt down and the young kids having bottles of urine thrown at them by protestant civilians as oppression.

jack923

fran17 wrote: »

Indeed Enniskillen was quite the own goal on the provisionals behalf,it noticeably shifted the public sentiment despite acknowledgement by both sides that the victims were not the intended target.I struggle to differentiate between British occupation and British oppression though.

It destroyed the IRA if I remember correctly gaddafi even stopped supplying them with their arms after it.

K-9

con___manx1 wrote: »

I don't think people forget. most don't have a clue about nothern Ireland. especially the young people in the republic.
The British were just as bad. One of there leaders at the time aka Margret thatcher orderderd the sinking of a retreating ship the general belgrano killing 323 argintine navy personell during the Falklands war.
How could the British army be any different with a leader like that. She also wouldn't give into the demands of the hunger strikers until at least ten of them were dead. Bobby sands was on her hit list for sure.

IIRC talks went on behind the scenes much earlier than that in the hunger strikes.

jack923

K-9 wrote: »

IIRC talks went on behind the scenes much earlier than that in the hunger strikes.

Hardly given any attention talks is all they were.

jack923

fran17 wrote: »

Indeed Enniskillen was quite the own goal on the provisionals behalf,it noticeably shifted the public sentiment despite acknowledgement by both sides that the victims were not the intended target.I struggle to differentiate between British occupation and British oppression though.

Yes

Charles Babbage

People seem to forget about the British crimes everywhere. The Germans don't glorify their sordid history, the British continue to do so. A lot of people think that the Germans invented concentration camps!

Seth Brundle

jack923 wrote: »

I'm not supporting either side in this thread

Start as you mean to go on!!!

jack923

kbannon wrote: »

Start as you mean to go on!!!

Sorry?

Seth Brundle

jack923 wrote: »

Well in the 70s and early 80s the large majority of ireland were IRA supporters or sympathisers

Have you an independent source for this statement?
People may have been against the Thatcher government and British rule but that does not necessarily translate into support or sympathy for the murderers that were the IRA.

jack923

kbannon wrote: »

Have you an independent source for this statement?
People may have been against the Thatcher government and British rule but that does not necessarily translate into support or sympathy for the murderers that were the IRA.

It's impossible to have a source for that statement. If you call the IRA murderers you must think the same of every other army.

twinytwo

Ugly period in Irish history it was.

However the British do tend to get on their high horse when it comes to Northern Ireland.

How many British soldiers etc have stood trial for murder?

But it is always brought up every now and again about the atrocities carried out by the IRA but their own involvement is conveniently not mentioned.

Seth Brundle

jack923 wrote: »

Sorry?

Your posts have obvious leanings towards sympathy for the IRA despite what you said in your opening post!

jack923 wrote: »

It's impossible to have a source for that statement. If you call the IRA murderers you must think the same of every other army.

The Irish army are not so I would disagree with your logic straight away without having to think hard about it!
Nonetheless, stop making statements to defend your posts if your making the stuff up!

jack923

kbannon wrote: »

Have you an independent source for this statement?
People may have been against the Thatcher government and British rule but that does not necessarily translate into support or sympathy for the murderers that were the IRA.

the Republic of ireland wouldn't extradite IRA members the republic was seen as a safe haven for IRA members up until the late 80s and there was no real urgency from the public to want to extradite them take from that as you wish. Before bloody sunday it was extremely hard to do so and after bloody sunday it was near impossible.

jack923

kbannon wrote: »

Your posts have obvious leanings towards sympathy for the IRA despite what you said in your opening post!


The Irish army are not so I would disagree with your logic straight away without having to think hard about it!
Nonetheless, stop making statements to defend your posts if your making the stuff up!

Maybe every army was an exaggeration and also yes I do have sympathy for them. Tell me what I made up?

Seth Brundle

jack923 wrote: »

Maybe every army was an exaggeration and also yes I do have sympathy for them. Tell me what I made up?

I didn't want this to derail the thread but you made up a comment that most people of Ireland were supporters or sympathisers of the IRA.
You then tried to justify this by suggesting that because our politicians assisted in preventing extradition then the public must have supported this view. This then would be similar to saying that the majority of people supported the bank guarantee

jack923

kbannon wrote: »

Your posts have obvious leanings towards sympathy for the IRA despite what you said in your opening post!


The Irish army are not so I would disagree with your logic straight away without having to think hard about it!
Nonetheless, stop making statements to defend your posts if your making the stuff up!

Government minster Charles Haughey who was sacked from the cabinet for his involement in a gun running scheme for the IRA was later able to go on to be one of Irelands most controversial but long standing Taoiseach's. Take from that what you wish as well

Seth Brundle

jack923 wrote: »

Government minster Charles Haughey who was sacked from the cabinet for his involement in a gun running scheme for the IRA was later able to go on to be one of Irelands most controversial but long standing Taoiseach's. Take from that what you wish as well

Bloody hell! People electing Charlie is not an indication of support for the IRA.
Don't confuse the two


Anyhow, I'm done. I've made my point. You said that you would remain neutral in your OP. You steered off line quite soon after that.

jack923

kbannon wrote: »

I didn't want this to derail the thread but you made up a comment that most people of Ireland were supporters or sympathisers of the IRA.
You then tried to justify this by suggesting that because our politicians assisted in preventing extradition then the public must have supported this view. This then would be similar to saying that the majority of people supported the bank guarantee

No anyone who was alive during that time will tell you and no I was just using an example because there is no way I can support my statement.

jack923

kbannon wrote: »

Bloody hell! People electing Charlie is not an indication of support for the IRA.
Don't confuse the two

I'm trying to use examples for you his IRA involvment in no way effected his votes.

jack923

twinytwo wrote: »

Ugly period in Irish history it was.

However the British do tend to get on their high horse when it comes to Northern Ireland.

How many British soldiers etc have stood trial for murder?

But it is always brought up every now and again about the atrocities carried out by the IRA but their own involvement is conveniently not mentioned.

They choose to ignore it the british attitude is a holier than though type attitude that's not a dig it's just how I see it.

Inquitus

This thread belongs in Politics Cafe as its full of nonsense.

jack923

Inquitus wrote: »

This thread belongs in Politics Cafe as its full of nonsense.

Where's the nonsense?

Inquitus

jack923 wrote: »

Where's the nonsense?

Everywhere, your OP opens with a load of made up statistics that have no sources cited at all, and the nonsense continues to flow thick and fast thereafter.