Some advice needed re:dog nipping(?) a child

eoinzy2000

Taking it very personal Doubtfire. Pointed attacks are of no use or consequence here. Dog person or not, please stay objective

Ms Doubtfire1

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Taking it very personal Doubtfire. Pointed attacks are of no use or consequence here. Dog person or not, please stay objective

look who's talking.

eoinzy2000

Thats good cocker, because interactions between human children are hardly useful comparatives to animal/human interactions

Ms Doubtfire1

cocker5 wrote: »

No, No confusion...

I was just typing the same lol

Ms Doubtfire1

but I am going to excuse myself from this post before I get myself banned for calling out a certain poster on various undesirable traits..ignorance being one of them. woops.I better go.

AryaStark

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

There seems to be some confusion between human and dog here???

I hope that you don't own a dog now... If you do then poor dog.

A large dog is a big responsibility. My Husky loves kids but I don't allow strangers dogs to come near her (and I have had parents tell their kids 'quick run over and rub the wolf'). I tell people before they approach her that she does not enjoy kids being near her.
This is because I don't trust kids near her, not that I don't trust her. I have nieces and nephews that have all been thought manners near dogs and they love to play with her. She gets excited chasing them about but would never jump on them.

It takes manners from both a dog and a child for the relationship to work.

eoinzy2000

I merely pointed out my opinion in relation to a potentially dangerous animal. You actually talked about fighting me. Now, come on.

eoinzy2000

I merely pointed out my opinion in relation to a potentially dangerous animal. You actually talked about fighting me. Now, come on.

cocker5

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Thats good cocker, because interactions between human children are hardly useful comparatives to animal/human interactions

They are useful infact, dogs in general are far better behaved than most kids.

You are very black and white with your views when it comes to animals, but not when it comes to kids... there is GREY area is all areas of life.. including the interaction between humans and between animals and humans...

Ms Doubtfire1

AryaStark wrote: »

I hope that you don't own a dog now... If you do then poor dog.

A large dog is a big responsibility. My Husky loves kids but I don't allow strangers dogs to come near her (and I have had parents tell their kids 'quick run over and rub the wolf'). I tell people before they approach her that she does not enjoy kids being near her.
This is because I don't trust kids near her, not that I don't trust her. I have nieces and nephews that have all been thought manners near dogs and they love to play with her. She gets excited chasing them about but would never jump on them.

It takes manners from both a dog and a child for the relationship to work.

Exactly.And my lurchers is a rescue with an unknown background.I would never risk my dog near kids

eoinzy2000

I own 4 dogs Arya. Do you think I am an irresponsible dog owner? Should I give them up? What do you base your judgements on? Please let me know

cocker5

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

I merely pointed out my opinion in relation to a potentially dangerous animal. You actually talked about fighting me. Now, come on.

and there we have it POTENTIAL.... and your view is to destroy based on the possible potential... dramatic right until the end

cocker5

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

I own 4 dogs Arya. Do you think I am an irresponsible dog owner? Should I give them up? What do you base your judgements on? Please let me know

Based on your previous posts giving them up wouldn't be dramatic enough for you....... they would need to be destroyed

muddypaws

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

I merely pointed out my opinion in relation to a potentially dangerous animal. You actually talked about fighting me. Now, come on.

All animals are potentially dangerous - including the human kind.

eoinzy2000

Correct. Potential. As a responsible dog owner I will not maintain a dog that is a risk to children. But hey, thats just me.

AryaStark

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

I merely pointed out my opinion in relation to a potentially dangerous animal. You actually talked about fighting me. Now, come on.

Fighting you about the issue of the dog being put down. As a parent that may be what you want but it is not the law.
If my dog was to accidentally bite someone (I would know that it was their fault) there is no way that she would be automatically put down. I would fight with everything I had to make sure it did not happen.

Also when you say that you had the dog 'destroyed' it says everything about your opinion on dogs and is really horrible.

AryaStark

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

I own 4 dogs Arya. Do you think I am an irresponsible dog owner? Should I give them up? What do you base your judgements on? Please let me know

Yes I think you are an irresponsible dog owner and I feel sorry for your dogs. That is my opinion and also think that you should probably not own any pets.

cocker5

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Correct. Potential. As a responsible dog owner I will not maintain a dog that is a risk to children. But hey, thats just me.

Phew .......... we can all rest easy and sleep tonight so

forgodssake

The dog caught the child's arm with his mouth .... in my opinion a poor excuse from a dog owner in denial . I'm a dog lover myself but would have no hesitation in respecting the wishes of the parents in this case. Were it not for your dog there would be no damage done to the child.

muddypaws

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Correct. Potential. As a responsible dog owner I will not maintain a dog that is a risk to children. But hey, thats just me.

But all dogs could be a risk to children, it depends on how the child interacts with the dog and other factors.

Harika

As owner of GSD since 20 years, I would think the dog saw the children and when they ran way, saw this as a game, and with 19 months he is still quite young and active. Then by playing, scratched them. If he would have bitten, a lot more damage would have been done and Gardai would already be involved.
I don't think the dog should be put down only by this incident. There are tests that can be done, to verify how dangerous your dog is.

See how this is done in Germany:

Basically the dog is put in stressful situations and the reaction is monitored.

eoinzy2000

Oh dear, prepare for the onslaught forgodsakes...

Cherry Blossom

eoinzy2000, consider yourself thread-banned. You are trolling. There have been several mod warnings in this thread which have been ignored. Any more obvious trolling will result in permanent forum bans. This applies to everyone.

Drumpot

I love my pets, but had to make the painful decision to put one of my dogs down just last week.

Like the OP, I keep my dogs protected in that the only time they are not safely tucked in my garden, they are on a lead in my care. However in the 8 years I have had them there were 3 incidents that led me to make a very hard decision. One incident was when they were young and I was naieve out running with them beside me without a lead.

In all cases, it was dog on dog attack, but I couldn't ignore the role my dog was playing (springer collie). We have two of them, brother and sister, but they are chalk and cheese in terms of character. The female dog was way more anxious and just more energetic then the male dog.

Anyway, in all 3 incidents they were accidents and the female dog went for smaller dogs in the estate, one dog twice. Now, part of the problem is that these are dogs who are allowed to roam around the street and they regularly tease and annoy dogs that are maintained in their gardens from responsible owners who don't just let their dogs go anywhere unattended. One of the local dogs actually teases my dogs by bringing food over to where our fence is and putting it down to eat right where my dogs can smell it.

There are two issues at play. One is my responsibility for my dog and how I am going to treat incidents. The other is how other people choose to "take care" of their dogs and what they consider fair treatment of situations.

My dogs got out when nobody was home, how I don't know because the door has two bolt locks. But the fact was that she went for a dog she had already attacked. This dog wasn't on a lead, but was just sitting outside its owners house with its owner. I cannot ignore that this dog could of been on a lead and it would of been attacked anyway. I cannot ignore that there could of been a child holding this dog that could of been injured. I cannot ignore that I cannot say for certain that my dog wouldn't get out by accident again because it had happened twice, both times were genuine mistakes.

I have an anger towards the neighbours who have their own shamefully contradictive opinions towards what happened. Firstly, they don't value the life of the dog so see it as expendable, like a material good that you can just throw out if its not suitable. I don't share this "value". Secondly, these are the same people who let their dogs and young children do whatever the f%%k they want when they throw them out the front to take care of themselves and do what they please. Lastly, they have zero empathy or understanding outside of their restricted, selfish opinions.

BUT, I have a responsibility that I had to face. I tried animal shelters, I spoke extensively with my vet who stated that the manner of the attacks suggested they couldn't be trained out of my dog and took a day to reflect on what had happened. In the end, the attacks themselves (accidents and very few) happened in a nature that we couldn't ignore just so we could be happy keeping a pet. We put one of our dogs down, leaving her brother alone for the first time in his life, because we felt it was the only thing we could do. I don't blame the ignorant people who frankly haven't a clue about the importance of pets to a family. I took responsibility and swept my side of the street. Its annoying that many people, particularly people with selective outrage/opinions on these kind of topics, don't really spend more time making sure they are being considerate and respectful to others.

Just as an aside, the dog that was attacked is fine and it has its own history in that it bit a neighbours child in the past. Their owner expected me to put the dog down, but that didn't affect my decision. Like I said, people have selective ways of interpreting personal responsibility, that is that they expect other people to be responsible and accountable even when they aren't.

In the case of the OP, since the dog nipped a child I can understand (with three of my own) why the parents of the child may want action. That's not to say they are right, but try and put yourself in their shoes. I was informed, by my solicitor, that I could be sued for the actions of my dog if its not under control, so they can take action and they can in theory force the dog to be put down.

I would recommend you first try to honestly assess the situation. Its hard because its your pet, but can you honestly say this wont happen again ? Secondly, would you be willing to put in place training with a dog expert who should be able to let you know if it can be trained out of your dog? (I looked into it and my dog couldn't be changed!). Thirdly, can you live with yourself if this happens again and is a worse incident ? Its an unfair question to some degree, but its a fair question when weighing up your options. If you are unsure, I recommend you discuss it with the family vet. Tell them exactly what happens and ask what realistic options are available and in their experience what is usually the most common course of action ? An independent professional can give you a more objective view on your situation, away from the hysteria like you have read on this thread.

crusha101

This b/s about once a dog bites it will bite again is rubbish , they are not vampires getting their first taste of blood !

muddypaws

Drumpot, yours is a very well thought out response but, just one thing. A vet is not a dog behaviour expert, and so a vet saying that a dog can't be trained may not be correct. It wouldn't be training that would have needed to be undertaken, but behaviour modification. It sounds as though your dog was fear aggressive, yes, it is very difficult to work on, but not always insurmountable.

Drumpot

muddypaws wrote: »

Drumpot, yours is a very well thought out response but, just one thing. A vet is not a dog behaviour expert, and so a vet saying that a dog can't be trained may not be correct. It wouldn't be training that would have needed to be undertaken, but behaviour modification. It sounds as though your dog was fear aggressive, yes, it is very difficult to work on, but not always insurmountable.

It was the nature of the attacks that concerned the vet. The dog made a direct Bline to the dogs and didn't bark or give any warning, she literally honed in on the dog and went hell for leather. She threw the dogs round like raggy dolls and it was savage to witness to be honest.

Bearing in mind I took my vets advice as gospel, they stated that there is a normal practice to dogs even fighting (sniffing, barking, warnings, posturing round each other) and that the way my dog attacked the other dogs was, in her opinion, a rarer form of aggression that in her experience was not possible to untrain. She felt there was an underlying mental illness with that dog. She highlighted the fact that I had two dogs from the same litter, both brought up in exactly the same environment and one of them was extremely vicious towards other small dogs.

kathleen37

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

I own 4 dogs Arya. Do you think I am an irresponsible dog owner? Should I give them up? What do you base your judgements on? Please let me know

Can I ask if you think you have any responsibility in regard the dog you had put to sleep for injuring your child? A terrible thing to have happened by the way, and I hope your kiddie has recovered fully.

Owning a dog *is* a huge responsibility. Part of that responsibility is to train and look after the animal, build up trust so that terrible situations don't happen.

I appreciate the OP in this thread seems to be getting a beating and I'm sincerely not wanting to add to that as I think props to the OP for recognising they are at fault and asking advice for a very difficult situation, but fact is - had the dog been trained in recall, this incident wouldn't have happened.

borderlinemeath

muddypaws wrote: »

Drumpot, yours is a very well thought out response but, just one thing. A vet is not a dog behaviour expert, and so a vet saying that a dog can't be trained may not be correct. It wouldn't be training that would have needed to be undertaken, but behaviour modification. It sounds as though your dog was fear aggressive, yes, it is very difficult to work on, but not always insurmountable.

+1

Vets might have a medical expert opinion but they certainly aren't experts in behaviour analysis. A bit like a human wouldn't attend a gp if they needed psychotherapy.

kathleen37

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Correct. Potential. As a responsible dog owner I will not maintain a dog that is a risk to children. But hey, thats just me.

With respect, if that is your view, then I don't think you should "maintain" a dog at all, as no one can tell the future and *all* dogs, and people for that matter, have "potential" to react badly to an unforeseen situation.

AryaStark

kathleen37 wrote: »

Can I ask if you think you have any responsibility in regard the dog you had put to sleep for injuring your child? A terrible thing to have happened by the way, and I hope your kiddie has recovered fully.

Owning a dog *is* a huge responsibility. Part of that responsibility is to train and look after the animal, build up trust so that terrible situations don't happen.

I appreciate the OP in this thread seems to be getting a beating and I'm sincerely not wanting to add to that as I think props to the OP for recognising they are at fault and asking advice for a very difficult situation, but fact is - had the dog been trained in recall, this incident wouldn't have happened.

I would worry about the recall issue as my dog is a husky and hers is terrible! She will come 90% of the time and the rest she will just completely ignore me and go on with whatever exciting thing that she has.
She is only ever off lead in our garden which has an area about a qtr of an acre that is closed off and is her playground. While in there we practice recall all the time but I still would not trust her outside. If her lead were to break by accident I would not be 100% sure that I could call her back. (lucky I have a strong lead!)

borderlinemeath

kathleen37 wrote: »

Can I ask if you think you have any responsibility in regard the dog you had put to sleep for injuring your child? A terrible thing to have happened by the way, and I hope your kiddie has recovered fully.

Owning a dog *is* a huge responsibility. Part of that responsibility is to train and look after the animal, build up trust so that terrible situations don't happen.

I appreciate the OP in this thread seems to be getting a beating and I'm sincerely not wanting to add to that as I think props to the OP for recognising they are at fault and asking advice for a very difficult situation, but fact is - had the dog been trained in recall, this incident wouldn't have happened.

Our laws make it more difficult for an RB to have a 100% solid recall. They're never meant to be off a lead and most dog parks don't allow them. It's so much easier to have a solid recall in the comfort of your own home or garden, but the excitement the poor dog must have felt when the lead broke and he ran...

kathleen37

Very difficult for you, Drumpot. Such a sad situation, and completely horrifying to witness, I'm sure.

Drumpot

borderlinemeath wrote: »

+1

Vets might have a medical expert opinion but they certainly aren't experts in behaviour analysis. A bit like a human wouldn't attend a gp if they needed psychotherapy.

Most humans wouldn't attend psychotherapy unless their GP referred them onto one.

Like I stated, there was a particular concern with the nature of the attacks. And even at that, I had to consider the neighbor who could still take action against me if I didn't put the dog down.

borderlinemeath

Drumpot wrote: »

Most humans wouldn't attend psychotherapy unless their GP referred them onto one.

And your vet most certainly could have referred you to a behaviourist. In fact it's cover by some pet insurances if there's a veterinary referral.

AryaStark

Drumpot wrote: »

Most humans wouldn't attend psychotherapy unless their GP referred them onto one.

Like I stated, there was a particular concern with the nature of the attacks.

I think its a pity that more vets don't encourage dog training and behaviourists
in these types of situations.

Drumpot

kathleen37 wrote: »

Very difficult for you, Drumpot. Such a sad situation, and completely horrifying to witness, I'm sure.

It was horrible but thanks for asking. I took two days off work. One to spend a day lavishing her with treats and her hearts deside. Another to take her to the vets, be there for her and to grieve.

We have moved her brother indoors because he is really lonely. we are going to let him decide if he wants to be out or in but I think he likes the new comfort indoor! He Doesn't stop getting on my lap and cuddling up to me...

To be honest I should not of posted on this thread because I can forget how opinionated people are when they don't realise it wasn't a right/wrong call, it was as informed a call I could make under the circumstances.

kathleen37

Drumpot wrote: »

It was horrible but thanks for asking. I took two days off work. One to spend a day lavishing her with treats and her hearts deside. Another to take her to the vets, be there for her and to grieve.

We have moved her brother indoors because he is really lonely. we are going to let him decide if he wants to be out or in but I think he likes the new comfort indoor! He Doesn't stop getting on my lap and cuddling up to me...

To be honest I should not of posted on this thread because I can forget how opinionated people are when they don't realise it wasn't a right/wrong call, it was as informed a call I could make under the circumstances.

I can only guess how upsetting it must have been. Only time I ever witnessed something similar was when the mother of my two, turned on her daughter due to being in pain from an un-diagnosed medical condition. It was completely out of the blue. She didn't do too much damage but it was so upsetting...

For what it's worth, it's obvious how much you cared for her, and your boy, and I can understand what a difficult decision it must have been.

Cherry Blossom

OP, I hope you have found some useful advice amongst the muddle the thread has become. I think it has run it's course now.