Proposal to create another car park and a forest adventure centre in Malahide Demesne

mathie

There is a proposal to create another car park and a forest adventure area in Malahide Deemsne

Details can be found here ...

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/part-viii-proposed-forest-adventure-area-multi-use-reinforced-grassed-area-malahide

What do people think?
Do we need more car parks in Malahide Demsene?
Will there be any green areas / forest areas left if we insert more car parks and "adventure areas"?

The proposal is up for vote by councillors on the 11th July AFAIK even though no detailed proposal for the adventure area seems to be available.

plodder

I took a look at the video of the local area committee meeting on this, where they voted it down.

I thought the forest adventure thing was potentially a good idea, but the lack of detailed plans means it's impossible to know for sure. I think some of the objections are assuming the worst though as I doubt that trees would be cut down for example. However, I wouldn't like to see the area fenced off.

The councillors who voted against it weren't against the idea in principle, but I think they wanted the two aspects split into separate plans.

Dizzyblonde

If it's done properly it will be good. I love to see this sort of amenity being more accessible to visitors, and we certainly need a lot more outdoor activity centres in Ireland. Having enough parking is vital.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I am sure I read this idea was scrapped already?

Edit: http://www.northcountyleader.ie/2016/06/07/malahide-forest-adventure-area-axed/

Is this the same thing?

plodder

Daniella Ashy Voter wrote: »

I am sure I read this idea was scrapped already?

Edit: http://www.northcountyleader.ie/2016/06/07/malahide-forest-adventure-area-axed/

Is this the same thing?

There was a vote at the local area committee where it was rejected, but management are putting it to full council vote now, which if passed would overrule the local vote

mathie

plodder wrote: »

There was a vote at the local area committee where it was rejected, but management are putting it to full council vote now, which if passed would overrule the local vote

That's right and its happening on the 11th July.

If you'd like to contact councilors to ask them how they're voting or to share your thoughts you can find them here ...

http://www.fingal.ie/your-council/your-local-councillors/

mathie

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

If it's done properly it will be good. I love to see this sort of amenity being more accessible to visitors, and we certainly need a lot more outdoor activity centres in Ireland. Having enough parking is vital.

I'd agree you need enough parking to accommodate visitors but at what point is enough parking enough? Pretty soon the fields and forests people come to visit will be replaced with car parks.

The grounds are twp minutes walk from the dart station and one minute from a bus stop.

LeoB

mathie wrote: »

I'd agree you need enough parking to accommodate visitors but at what point is enough parking enough? Pretty soon the fields and forests people come to visit will be replaced with car parks.

The grounds are twp minutes walk from the dart station and one minute from a bus stop.

Agree with you here.

Also feel we dont have enough of these outdoor adventure centres in Ireland. I am not sure a place like Malahide demesne is the right place for this either. It seems a lot of stuff is centred around the demesne.

Ardgillen has plenty of land and could easily have some trails put in around the fields to the north of the castle. But in general I think a lot of the adventure outdoor places need to be in the countryside not in a busy urban town.

Allyall

Anyone know anything about a huge car park and adventure something or other plans for the Malahide Castle grounds?

I got sent a whatsapp this morning asking me to sign some petition against it.
It seems as though there are plans to put in a sky walk and cut down many of the trees, to use it to attract Hen Parties and Stags and mainly adult theme weekends.

Also they are planning on cutting through a sizable amount of the grounds to build a massive car park.

Seems a bit of a mental thing to do, considering that they would be making the place uglier to try and attract people to it. (I always thought it was fairly popular anyway).

The whatsapp message was very vague and the petition even more so.

BowWow

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057618126

The Hill Billy

Threads merged.

tHB

Allyall

I only heard about this, this morning. It seems like a crazy idea. I just received a long whatsapp message a few minutes ago with more details.

It seems it's not for kids (under 7 not allowed, 7 - 15 must have adults with them), and mainly for Stag and Hen parties.

To me, that sounds like madness. Is it not popular enough already without having to chop bits out, to attract the same amount or less people?
I wouldn't really have thought Malahide would be high on the Stag/Hen parties list.

As for the car park, that just sounds like the council fecked up by allowing all of the buildings in the centre to continue, but not taking into account that it would bring more traffic.
I genuinely believe that their own interests are they only ones that they cater for.

The message I received this morning is quite long, and I'd like to know if it's correct. I'm going to try and post it here.

It must have originally been sent last night, as it refers to the vote tomorrow, but the OP states that the vote is today.

Allyall

This is the Whatsapp message, but probably a bit late for the vote.

Sorry to bother you all so late but if you could have a read of this and think about what sylvesters have decided to support supposedly in the name of us the members. This will affect all us not just st sylvesters. If you disagree with this please share it on any forum you can, people need to be made aware of what's going on
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/save-malahide-castle-demense-woodlands

If you disagree with this proposal from fingal sign the online petition by lunchtime tomorrow
Final email sent to 40 councillors (and 4 TDs):

'Prior to your vote tomorrow on the proposed development at Malahide Castle woodlands, I would like to draw your attention to 9 misleading claims that have been made about the proposed development:

1. This development is not for children. The marketing materials for companies that operate such facilities such as Zipit make it clear that their main market is hens, stags, and corporate parties. They state clearly that they do not permit children younger than 7 years into the facility. They also state clearly that children aged 7 years to 15 years must be accompanied by a parent or guardian throughout their time at the facility and that although there are ‘instructors’ located at several places in the facility, children are the responsibility of their parent or guardian in every activity and must be supervised by them throughout.

2. This development is elitist. Companies that operate such facilities such as Zipit charge 22 euro for children aged 7 to 15 years, and they charge the adult price of 29 euro for young people from 15 years up. These prices are unaffordable for most families who avail of Malahide park and woods. A parent with three children would have to pay 95 euro to use this facility once. Two adults and two children would have to pay 102 euro for one visit. These prices will disenfranchise many children for whom Malahide castle woodlands are a welcome sanctuary. Malahide castle has a wide cachement area and children come to the park from Coolock, Darndale, and Clare Hall, as well as Swords, St Margaret’s, and Portmarnock. It is currently free for these children to play in, climb trees, and have adventures. The proposal is to take a free facility away from children and place it in the hands of a private company to turn it into a playground for rich adults.

3. This development will close off a whole area of the woodlands from public use. Claims that the proposal will not require fencing of the woodland area are false. Such claims are made in the absence of a full planning proposal. At the stage of submitting a planning application it will become patently obvious that for safety and insurance purposes it is an absolute necessity that such an adventure facility must be in a fenced area to protect walkers from activities overhead in the trees. In addition, the area will need to be fenced to enable the private company to protect their equipment, limit access to their walkways and ropes, and enable their instructors to distinguish paid entrants from others. Malahide woodlands is a small fringe area in a relatively small parkland of less than 240 acres; fencing off a section of the woods may be feasible in a park of thousands of acres but it will severely limit public access in such a small woodlands. These woodlands are currently heavily used by people walking dogs, runners, children cycling to school, parents with children and visitors enjoying the beauty and tranquility of Malahide woods, this development will take this area from them.

4. This proposal will damage the environment. There is considerable wildlife in Malahide woods – children catch their first glimpses of squirrels, foxes, rabbits, voles, as well as many species of birds in these woodlands. In recent years the field close to the site towards the Back road side has been host to migratory geese over-wintering each year, and children and dog-walkers keep a careful distance from them in respect for the remarkable long journey they make in their migratory pattern every winter. The increased noise and activity from hens, stags and corporate parties using the forest adventure area will disturb this important natural wildlife sanctuary. There are also considerable wild flowers and plants in Malahide woodlands. Children see their first wild cowslips and primroses here, they occasionally see a rarer wild orchid, they smell their first wild garlic under the trees and learn valuable lessons about the natural sources of food for people and animals here. These wild plantings will be damaged by trampling in a concentrated area, as an Taisce has pointed out in its letter to Fingal County Council.

5. The development is not better for children than the existing woodlands. It has been claimed that a forest adventure facility will help remedy the observation that some children have never climbed a tree. A forest adventure facility for children provides a set of structured, planned, exercises. It contributes a further set of timetabled events to the modern child’s already highly scheduled life. It is not an adequate substitute for imaginative, self-directed, free play. Malahide woodlands currently provides ideal opportunities for children to have free forest adventures.

6. This proposal will not increase visitors access to Malahide park. The proposed extended carpark at the Bridgefield is an extension to a paid car park. There are three other car parks in Malahide park, one of which has recently undergone a major extension, beside the Avoca shop. These three car parks are free. Most visitors park in these free car parks rather than in the single paid car park. Extending the paid car park at the Bridgefield is not in the interests of visitors to Malahide park and will not increase access to the park by visitors. It is an unnecessary destruction of the Bridgefield, and although St Sylvester’s club officials have withdrawn their objections to the incursion on their football fields because of a separate deal made with them by Fingal County Council to swop other lands, the loss of a major part of this field will impact other people who access this field daily such as people walking dogs, runners, parents with children, and visitors.

7. This proposal will not increase business in Malahide village, despite the ill judged support given to the proposal by Malahide chamber of commerce, because increased traffic congestion will have the net effect of deterring visitors to Malahide. Already many people from neighbouring areas will not travel to Malahide village at the weekends because of the lengthy traffic jams throughout the village and particularly at the entrance to the village beside the Bridgefield car park, compounded by poor planning of egress from the Dart station, poor planning of on-road parking on both sides of the roads near the village diamond, and poor planning of some bus routes.

8. This proposal will not make money for Fingal County Council. The costs of constructing, maintaining, staffing, and insuring such an adventure area are so high as to be unsustainable. There is a high risk that when the current ‘fad’ for such adventure areas fades and the company that enters into an arrangement with Fingal County Council fails to make sufficient profits to pay for the use of the woodlands, Fingal County Council will be left with an expensive ‘white elephant’ littering its woodlands.

9. FIngal County Council does not own Malahide castle. It was bequeathed to the people of Ireland. The Council does not have the right to privatize part of the woodlands or to take it from the public. The Council’s responsibility, as articulated in its own planning documents, is to ensure that our culture and heritage are preserved for future generations.

Please vote no to the proposed development at your meeting on Monday 11th July.'

Allyall

It's live here - Number 21 -http://www.fingalcoco.ie/your-council/council-meetings/watchcouncilmeetingsonline/

Allyall

I watched the whole meeting. It seemed very one sided (opposed to it), then it came to be, that the 'pro' side one. 18 for and 16 against. 5 No vote.

I think Eoghan O'Brien will be lucky to get in again.
He stated "I am the only person here that was born and bred in Malahide" and he is considered as being handed a seat, even though he won it the next time. He has undoubtedly damaged himself.


The 'for' arguments were very false and/or incorrect.
They are in the minutes, and very few if you want to read them.

The 'against' arguments seemed to have a lot to say....

We need more time.
Why is this being pushed through ahead of other issues, are there not more important things?
Could anywhere else benefit from this money?
Why are two separate issues being treated and voted upon as one?
Why have these created so much attention?

And a lot more.....

Needless to say, it's very surprising to me that they voted the opposite.

pinkypinky

It does seem rushed but the petition posted above is incredibly one sided and based on companies that provide similar services. Malahide Castle & grounds are not just for children.
The castle was not bequeathed to the Irish state either, it was sold to them by Lady Rose Talbot.

Allyall

Yeah, I noticed that too. I think she did bequeath land to them, but definitely not the Castle grounds.
The message is one sided too, but after watching the meeting last night, there are plenty of reasons against it, without any of the above reasons being mentioned, and very little argument for it.
Ardgillan Castle, Newbridge house and others are wondering (and rightly so) why Malahide Castle keeps getting money thrown into it.

Also, putting the two proposals into one seemed a bit daft, but it was done and they have both been passed. No doubt some councillors doing favours for others.

expectationlost

so I read that this was proposed by a particular company to the council management but we havn't heard who?

the malahide gardens is kind of half public I mean it has to pay for itself which its done with the cafe and the you have to pay into the botanic garden/museum etc

i wound't be totally opposed I agree that need more info about it, the council management treat councillors and public like dirt


im not convinced about the not a carpark carpark

Allyall

I read a lot about it, and they are definitely not telling the full truth.
For example, the "for" case states that the park would be unaffected, and the pathways and beaten tracks would still be the same as they are now.
That can't be true, as I don't believe health and safety would allow it.

There are many alternatives to the carpark, I was talking with people the other night, and at random we came up with at least 6 alternatives that are viable. I have started to question the competence of the council, particularly the ones that would be from that area and haven't seen any of the alternatives.
If Malahide castle needs to bring in ideas like this to pay for its upkeep, then all of the others do to. I agree with some of the councillors that asked why is money constantly being thrown into Malahide castle and grounds.

Carawaystick

If the plan is to have something like Zippit at Cruagh road in the Dublin mountains,
then the place is still open to the public, you can walk under and through the zippit area, and Coillte charge Zippit by the tree they use, with none cut down.

AlanG

Sad if the area is fenced off - it is already a forest adventure area - whenever my kids go in there they have great craic playing in that forest as it is the only large section of forest in the area. It all seems like a plan to make more money and charge more for parking.

Allyall

Carawaystick wrote: »

If the plan is to have something like Zippit at Cruagh road in the Dublin mountains,
then the place is still open to the public, you can walk under and through the zippit area, and Coillte charge Zippit by the tree they use, with none cut down.

They've already cut down a load of trees. They obviously knew that it would get the green light. TBH, I thought something like that alone would make me against it, as stupid as it sounds.
But it didn't.
The whole thing has been quite farcical (easily available to read online), even the last meeting had most councillors who spoke, against it.
It needs to be properly put to the people in the area (That includes all of the people/parks affected). Otherwise it's just a sneaky underhanded pushed through project that only makes sense to the people that paid for it.

plodder

Allyall wrote: »

They've already cut down a load of trees.

Really? I thought all they did was to clear out scrub and bushes at various places. I wasn't aware of any substantial trees being cut down. I can't see why they would cut down any trees, unless they were diseased or in danger of falling.

Allyall

plodder wrote: »

Really? I thought all they did was to clear out scrub and bushes at various places. I wasn't aware of any substantial trees being cut down. I can't see why they would cut down any trees, unless they were diseased or in danger of falling.

Go to the are on the Dublin road, and the area in front of the playground.

They've cut down many trees, and in some cases just removed trees that have fallen.
But there has been many removed trees.

plodder

Allyall wrote: »

Go to the are on the Dublin road, and the area in front of the playground.

They've cut down many trees, and in some cases just removed trees that have fallen.
But there has been many removed trees.

I've seen what they did on the Dublin road. I didn't think any substantial trees were cut down. They cleared out the area of overgrowth and bushes etc. It looks a lot better imo. Best thing might be to contact a councillor to find out exactly what was done and what they are going to do.

Allyall

plodder wrote: »

I've seen what they did on the Dublin road. I didn't think any substantial trees were cut down. They cleared out the area of overgrowth and bushes etc. It looks a lot better imo. Best thing might be to contact a councillor to find out exactly what was done and what they are going to do.

I think you're talking about the area approaching the estate - a "Y" junction.
Further back (if coming from Dublin and entering Malahide), they cut down a lot of trees.
Also in front of the Playground they felled and removed a lot of trees there.

The councillors have already lied. That's my biggest gripe. If they won't tell the truth about small things like that, then we have no chance with bigger issues. (I realise that this is a big issue to some People in Malahide, and I don't mean to belittle it.).

plodder

Allyall wrote: »

I think you're talking about the area approaching the estate - a "Y" junction.
Further back (if coming from Dublin and entering Malahide), they cut down a lot of trees.
Also in front of the Playground they felled and removed a lot of trees there.

The councillors have already lied. That's my biggest gripe. If they won't tell the truth about small things like that, then we have no chance with bigger issues. (I realise that this is a big issue to some People in Malahide, and I don't mean to belittle it.).

I was talking about the same area. I will go and take a closer look next time I'm there.

Allyall

It's in the fingal paper this morning.

Dizzyblonde

I have a thing about parking at outdoor amenities, for instance Portmarnock beach being one place that's very badly served. The council could easily add to the parking spaces there. Not everyone can park away off down the road and walk the rest of the way, for instance the elderly and people with physical difficulties etc. So the extra car park at Malahide Castle would be a positive, in my view - especially with the new adventure centre being built.
I love to see this sort of development because we really do need more outdoor amenities in Ireland, especially since the population has grown so much. Families need places to go at the weekend, and what better than outdoor pursuits? How many acres of parkland do we need at places like Malahide Castle? Surely a small portion being used for this sort of thing still leaves plenty? Newbridge House and Demesne in Donabate is also being made more visitor friendly, and I can only see this as a good thing.

Allyall

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

I have a thing about parking at outdoor amenities, for instance Portmarnock beach being one place that's very badly served. The council could easily add to the parking spaces there. Not everyone can park away off down the road and walk the rest of the way, for instance the elderly and people with physical difficulties etc. So the extra car park at Malahide Castle would be a positive, in my view - especially with the new adventure centre being built.
I love to see this sort of development because we really do need more outdoor amenities in Ireland, especially since the population has grown so much. Families need places to go at the weekend, and what better than outdoor pursuits? How many acres of parkland do we need at places like Malahide Castle? Surely a small portion being used for this sort of thing still leaves plenty? Newbridge House and Demesne in Donabate is also being made more visitor friendly, and I can only see this as a good thing.

I would agree with small portions of what you've said, but I don't agree with a lot.
Regarding outdoor activities that are going to cost a parent and child €50 to partake in, nope.
I don't agree with that in any context.
There are free ways to make a much more appealing reason for people to get off their couch, and allow the council to make money without overcharging.
As for the car park, there are viable alternatives that haven't even been suggested. Equally close to the centre of Malahide and less likely to create a bottleneck getting there.
They're also unlikely to have people annoyed by putting the car park there (in any of those locations).
This council doesn't seem to have looked past the obvious.
They seem incapable of making decisions 'outside the box.'
Not something I like to see in the decision makers.

pinkypinky

We don't know yet how they're going to price this amenity or even who will operate it.

I feel the project has been rushed through but the petition and the tone of the whatsapp message smacks of nimbyism.